Revealing Magic on a Forum

[Josh Burch]

Hey everyone, there's been a new trend that has started to pop up on this forum and it's really getting on my nerves. People keep revealing magic! Not directly, but they are revealing it like crazy.

Every time a concept is brought up it's like a contest to see who can name the most marketed effects that use that concept. Is this right? When someone asks what IT is should we immediately share a hundred links to every effect that uses IT?

Isn't it okay to not talk about how David Blaine did his latest trick?

This kind of thing has been driving me crazy on the forums latley. Am I missing something? Or are there other people that are annoyed too?

 

[joshrobarts]

It's a mixed bag. This is a location for learning, for the proliferation of magic and magical methods. While it is sad that some people utilize for the quick and easy answer to every effect possible, if we guard the secrets too closely and never let them out at all, how will anyone find the answers they seek. While i agree that people should probably have to work a little harder to learn a method, giving out a source is generally not offensive to me. The thread you speak of, i posted in. I was purposefully vague, knowing that eventually the source would be tipped. I didn't give it away myself, not because i thought it would be wrong, but simply because i'm selfish and love using that technique and the fewer people doing it, the better for me. But let's face it. Giving a source is not the same as giving an answer. ESPECIALLY in that case. It will take time, hard work and determination to learn the material and practice it. So why not share the knowledge, why not spread the wealth. Those that work for it will still come out on top.

 

[Josh Burch]

It's a mixed bag. This is a location for learning, for the proliferation of magic and magical methods. While it is sad that some people utilize for the quick and easy answer to every effect possible, if we guard the secrets too closely and never let them out at all, how will anyone find the answers they seek. While i agree that people should probably have to work a little harder to learn a method, giving out a source is generally not offensive to me. The thread you speak of, i posted in. I was purposefully vague, knowing that eventually the source would be tipped. I didn't give it away myself, not because i thought it would be wrong, but simply because i'm selfish and love using that technique and the fewer people doing it, the better for me. But let's face it. Giving a source is not the same as giving an answer. ESPECIALLY in that case. It will take time, hard work and determination to learn the material and practice it. So why not share the knowledge, why not spread the wealth. Those that work for it will still come out on top.

I agree that it is a mixed bag and it is difficult to draw any line, let alone one that everyone will agree on. It wasn't just the David Blaine thread though, there was a Justin Flom thread just like it. Is that really all that we have to do to know how a professional magician performs his tricks? Just ask on a magic forum?

There is lots of room for debate in the above topic but there is something else that bugs a little. I know I'm being a little sensitive here but in another thread someone asked about multiple outs and a whole bunch of people began naming magician's and effects that use multiple outs. I don't think this is information that should be just hanging out there.

ps. The mention of M***** was fine I felt like it was relevant and worth mentioning. The incessant badgering to know what it is was annoying. The attitude that we are entitled to know bothers me.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I agree that it is a mixed bag and it is difficult to draw any line, let alone one that everyone will agree on. It wasn't just the David Blaine thread though, there was a Justin Flom thread just like it. Is that really all that we have to do to know how a professional magician performs his tricks? Just ask on a magic forum?

Quite succinctly: Yes, that is all it takes. If the effect is published, of course. Which is why you won't see the guys who have really good stuff rushing out to publish.

There is lots of room for debate in the above topic but there is something else that bugs a little. I know I'm being a little sensitive here but in another thread someone asked about multiple outs and a whole bunch of people began naming magician's and effects that use multiple outs. I don't think this is information that should be just hanging out there.

ps. The mention of M***** was fine I felt like it was relevant and worth mentioning. The incessant badgering to know what it is was annoying. The attitude that we are entitled to know bothers me.

Ah, entitlement. Our old friend.

I think this is really just a symptom. Basically, magic is not taken seriously these days. At least, not all of it. I'm told that there's some inner circles still out there that keep some really powerful stuff close to the chest. I honestly and truly cling to that as being true.

I think modern magic has been pushed away from the idea of having those few things that a performer does that are uniquely theirs, and has moved into the idea that a good idea must be sold to other magicians in order to be a 'good magician'. I think is extremely weak thinking. I am of the personal opinion that certain things have encouraged the behavior of "invent to publish" instead of "invent to be unique" or "invent to solve a problem."

Mac King is not the only person doing the gold fish production he does. But he's really, really good at it and he is known for it. He doesn't teach it to anyone, because it's his thing. But look at something like The Wire, and everyone is inventing things not with the intention of it being a reputation maker, but in the hopes that it's a good seller.

Magicians in general no longer create for the public, but for the brotherhood.

And because we don't focus on the performance any more, anyone who's been in magic for any length of time seems to feel that they deserve to be able to steal anyone's material because it's good. They seem to feel that they are completely justified in using anyone's material, regardless of whether that person wants them to or not. Entitlement.

I know I'm going on a bit of a tangent. But it's all part of the same issue. The massive glut of material has created a total lack of respect for that material. There's so much out there, and people have been burned so many times by such poor quality material being pushed out simply for the sake of making a buck, that they've turned away from respecting the material and have just come to the idea that they should be able to know what anyone is doing for the asking.

 

[Randy]

I thought of it was kind of funny how they kept trying to hide the term "memorized deck.". It's a bit ironic when you think about it. If somebody knows what it is, it's not really going to have any impact on anything. The same goes for people on message boards naming IT's or deck switches or any other method. If somebody wants to do a google search for those terms, than more power to them. Just because you know 1% of the secret, doesn't mean it's going to affect the guy using it.

 

[krab]

With the Blaine thread, there is a difference between knowing the name of the book and taking the time to find it, spending the $65 on the book, and taking the time to learn how to do it. The type of person who would take the time to learn that is not after the quick and easy.

 

[spoook]

With the Blaine thread, there is a difference between knowing the name of the book and taking the time to find it, spending the $65 on the book, and taking the time to learn how to do it. The type of person who would take the time to learn that is not after the quick and easy.

Awesome reply. I think you just need to quote the source for the material. Any conversations specific about the material itself should be over the phone, thru a pm, or on skype .... but not a public area.

I personally have begun to stick to effects in books, as everyone else these days seems to do the videos. Thanks for saving so much material for me. Keep watching DVD's or Downloads.

 

[ChrisWiens]

Awesome reply. I think you just need to quote the source for the material. Any conversations specific about the material itself should be over the phone, thru a pm, or on skype .... but not a public area.

I personally have begun to stick to effects in books, as everyone else these days seems to do the videos. Thanks for saving so much material for me. Keep watching DVD's or Downloads.

Quoted for truth.
I have a relatively big collection of magic books (120+) (I love and collect books in general, not just books about magic) and very few DVDs. In fact, there is so much material between these pages that I have never seen (and hopefully will never see) @youtube & co or revealed elsewhere.
Others may prefer DVDs and downloads but I eagerly support the magic shops who didn`t abandon books (totally). I know it`s more remunerative to produce downloads and DVDs and I don`t dislike digital downloads or DVDs per se.
However, "If you want to keep it secret, put it in a book"

The unpleasant part is that you´ll often see someone publishing something "new" as a download or DVD that already has been published years ago in a book (or a variation of it).
A part of the "new" magic community today often is unaware of it because not many take the effort to study a book.
As already mentioned, they want it quick and "easy".
I hate it when something is miscredited, even when it`s not the fault of the performer. (e.g the youtube generation calling the DL Blaine often uses the Blaine DL, although the credit should go to Martin Nash and/or Derek Dingle). Some older E-stuff is heavily miscredited or not proper credited, too. And countless other examples I could tell.
These miscredits, or let`s say the lack of credits, can often be found on DVDs and digital downloads (as opposed to the excellent crediting of Jason England for example, which is unsurpassed due to his vast knowledge).

 

[Austin Fields]

They say if you want to hide something, put it in print.

I love magic books, and I love magic videos, and theory and presentations etc. But I feel like I've started to see a bigger picture.

It really bothers me sometimes when I see people tipping methods, or guessing at them (like on the Tragic Cafe).
It's obvious they're fishing for the method. Yet I feel like we've brought this upon ourselves.

Derek DelGaudio had an article recently that essentially said, "Magic is seen as trivial because that's how magicians treat magic."
It begins to apply to all sorts of things in magic, like the worth of methods. Everyone can publish something now, and 99% of it is total crap. With so many "secrets" flying around, it floods the market and everyone loses.

Does it hurt magic? On several levels, yes of course.
But has it ...helped?

I would argue that it's damage on (what I consider to be) REAL magicians, is very minimal.

Look at someone like Dani DaOrtiz. I'm a huge fan of his, Juan's and the rest of the Spanish school of magic's thinking. Why? Because even as I watch him, owning almost everything he's released, he still fools me.

Methods are just a tiny piece of what magic is. You shouldn't expose them, but when you watch a real magician; whose mastered the sleights, blocking, timing, rhythm and pace, scripting, and psychology... you'll still get fooled.

What I've found is that the better I get at all those things, the more I become the "exception". People want to hire you, because they thought they knew magic, but "this guy's the real deal". So in a way, all these people who expose moves and sell crap, are helping you. We've come to value methods too highly, we need to focus on creating magic. Unlike a sleight, that type of dedication and study, can't be bought - it's earned.

 

[SinCera]

Just giving my 2 cents here

Magic is now seen as a "method" only.
As you might see for yourself, most "nowadays magicians" only wanted to learn the secrets behind every trick. They just want to know "how to do it" rather than "how I could perform that".
As someone posted on the Wire before ( I don't want to mention any names ), He mumbles over why his trick got rejected when he try to submit to the wire. And we found out because it's the exact same effect as Dani DaOrtiz's! His argument was this:
" The false shuffle are different, The controls are different, blablabla "
And one of our member replied : "It doesn't matter"

Well, because it really doesn't matter!
Magic is not about the magician performing the tricks! It's not about how the magician do this crazy sleights, it's about the audiences! Are the audiences entertained? are they happy?

This particular issue make people create "moves" rather than magic! This is, in my opinion, what has happened to the magic industry!

i hope this gives any sentiment toward the others.

-Sin

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I wonder how new this phenomenon is, really. I'm betting that there's always been a fairly consistent ratio of method-junkies vs. solid performers, but now magic is just out there to more people. So, basically, it may have been 1 person in 100 was a great performer a hundred years ago, and now maybe it's 100 in 100000. More people, same ratio.

I personally don't worry about exposure much at all. I've performed tricks to magicians, using methods I know they know, which fly right by them. One of my most memorable moments was when a kid I taught a stack to fooled me with that same stack because he presented it in such a way that a stack never entered my mind as a possibility.

If we present our magic in a unique way (Even if we're doing the same tricks) no one will know how we do it. The human mind is very compartmentalized. We watch a trick and we find out how it's done, and if we don't study magic, that's how that trick is done. If you do the same trick but use a different method, or if you use the same method but a different presentation, the average human mind won't connect the two.

 

[ChrisWiens]

Just giving my 2 cents here

Magic is now seen as a "method" only.
As you might see for yourself, most "nowadays magicians" only wanted to learn the secrets behind every trick. They just want to know "how to do it" rather than "how I could perform that".
As someone posted on the Wire before ( I don't want to mention any names ), He mumbles over why his trick got rejected when he try to submit to the wire. And we found out because it's the exact same effect as Dani DaOrtiz's! His argument was this:
" The false shuffle are different, The controls are different, blablabla "
And one of our member replied : "It doesn't matter"

Well, because it really doesn't matter!
Magic is not about the magician performing the tricks! It's not about how the magician do this crazy sleights, it's about the audiences! Are the audiences entertained? are they happy?

This particular issue make people create "moves" rather than magic! This is, in my opinion, what has happened to the magic industry!

i hope this gives any sentiment toward the others.

-Sin

Well I think that`s because it`s hard to really come up with a new effect. Everything has been done in one form or another.
For example Dani DaOrtiz. In essence, this is "just" a Triumph variation, an effect that has been done and known for decades! So
of course most effects today are mainly new variations of old effects. And it doesn`t matter whether it is different from presentation or
methods.
It could make a difference, and sometimes old effects gets an update to make it more direct/clear for the audience (no matter whether it`s due to new presentation or method). That is a good thing. But nevertheless, often it`s not an new effect.

The other thing is, most magicians don`t want to pay for a new presentation only.

I 100% agree with you that it should be about the audiences. I´m not interested in doing magic for magicians in any shape or form.
I just disagree that "The Wire" is against this. In my opinion, it motivates magicians/creators to come up with stuff that gets the attention of magicians.
They want to sell. The magicians publishing their work there want to sell. Their target audience are magicians, not laymen.
So to me, it rather supports this "new methods/sleights"-mindset.

 

[krab]

They say if you want to hide something, put it in print.

I love magic books, and I love magic videos, and theory and presentations etc. But I feel like I've started to see a bigger picture.

It really bothers me sometimes when I see people tipping methods, or guessing at them (like on the Tragic Cafe).
It's obvious they're fishing for the method. Yet I feel like we've brought this upon ourselves.

I have a few DVDs and a few VHS but I have a large collection of lecture note, pamphlets, pages from magazine, and books. When I need a kick in the pants I just open a book and start reading. Almost all of my books are filled with highlights notes in the margins and post it notes marking certain effects or methods. I can also carry a book with me. Hard to do that with videos.

 

[ChrisWiens]

I can also carry a book with me. Hard to do that with videos.

Tablet-PCs, Smartphones, MP3-Player....That`s quite possible

 

[krab]

Tablet-PCs, Smartphones, MP3-Player....That`s quite possible

Let me try that again. I have never had to recharge my book and wear headphones to read in public.

 

[SinCera]

I'm sorry, I knew I shouldn't post that one, It was a little bit subjective into my own.
I apologize for that.

-Sin

 

[Craig Browning]

There has always been an "issue" when it comes to the idea of making magic too accessible, even Houdini complained about the number of books that were being published; especially the cheaper comic book adventure type books produced by Blackstone, Mandrake and a few others of the day. He probably rolled over in his grave more than a few times when magic secrets were found on the backs of cereal boxes or in small booklets found in Jiffy Pop and Oreo packaging let alone those tipped in Boy's Life magazine and the scouting handbooks of the 40s into the 1960s.

But let's look at things a bit closer, such as how the Thurston Sawing in Half actually worked; the classic explanation being that two girls were involved with one hidden in the table when in truth, the table wasn't big enough to hold an adult female. I'll not explain Mr. T's actual method but I can assure you that the effect never used two ladies. But there's a plethora of other "subtle secrets" that go with that same prop as well as the Blackstone Buzz Saws (both of them; Sr's & Jr's) the average mage will never know in that you must actually touch the older unit in order to discover some of its less obvious advantages, most of which weren't in Jr's version (because no one was aware of them at the time). Harry Jr's nuance was more practical though, a safety precaution that his wife had total control over.

My point is that there is a huge difference between knowing the basics behind how a trick generally works and knowing the nuances that surround each effect. I remember getting seriously chewed out by Peter Pit because of how I worked the Dancing Cane; it wasn't until he spent time with me, showing me the right way of working the thing along with the many nuances he, Fred Kapps and others had developed for it that I found the magic behind the effect.

With every passing era that communications technology grows we will have to redefine certain parameters when it comes to what should and shouldn't be shared, etc. Today's copyright insanity has added a major amount of salt to this wound; not because it protects intellectual property but because it has become a means by which some developers monopolize a method -- frequently one that's not theirs to monopolize. But we are still paying for that whole self-centered era of the 80s in which everyone judged everyone else based on what they had and could do for them. Today isn't that much different, only that we hear lots of people complaining about piracy and exposure while on the side they are gladly participating in the same. If this were not so it would not be such a problem; a problem that's so pronounced that today's developers and merchants feel that they have less than 60 days to make their money on anything new (probably less than two weeks if the truth were known). If you take a stroll through Youtube its easy enough to see why this is the case but likewise, you can see the symptom that creates this DIS-EASE. Something I call "spoiltbratitis" in that most of the people doing the exposure videos are simply spoiled punks that want to ruin things for others. They are the same personality as the hecklers we find when we are working.

Someone posted early in this thread that we can't reduce the flow of magic technology down to a trickle or else the industry will dry up. . . How's this an issue?

Not all that long ago people that were serious about learning had to prove themselves by working in the show for nominal pay and in harsh conditions FOR YEARS before they would be allowed to learn "the act" as it were, or even one particular effect they wanted to master. Will Rock lead my teacher on for more than 3 years before he taught him the "Orange Bowls" -- the one effect he wanted to learn most of all the Thurston Legacy. This is how magic used to be, even in my boyhood days, earning the right to learn magic was a constant. While the information was easier to get to, the old timers still made certain that you started with the basics and built on from there as you moved towards your goals & dreams. The Internet more than anything, has cost us this advantage as well as our ability to learn the real secrets behind each piece.

True, there are "inner circles" scattered about here and there, including long lived fraternities tied to each branch of performance like Mentalism, Close-up, Grand Illusion, etc. The escapists hang with one another, frequently laughing at those that define the Sub Trunk or an Assistant's Revenge as an "escape" but that's the way with each "niche" group that is more in the know than those outside that specialty.

I'm all for reeling in the availability of secrets and access to magic as a whole; it's all become too prolific and too commercially oriented -- newbies believing that they must pen an eBook within a year of getting into the art; long before they have any facsimile of experience let alone "proven" material. The loss of the old Brick & Mortar shops and the dismay of today's old timers because of the spoiled nature of things means that magic will be running fallow sometime soon and from those ashes real secrets will come into reprise and once again, only the trusted student will learn how things work and the value behind keeping things silent.