The Problem With Magic And The Internet
- Thread starter jasonkillsx
- Start date
Part of the problem with this thread is that it conflagulates individual experience with generalizations. We all bring our own experiences and assume that those are reflective of magic forums as a whole.
Different forums have a different vibe to them. Some are more conducive to arm chair magicians, some are used as a medium for self promotion by certain magicians if their books and others are a haven for trolls who love derail threads into personal arguments. Wait, that is all one forum. Some forums are filled with newbies exposing magic, some have respected and known magicians posting regularly, some have know—it-all professionals whose performance is abysmal, some have hobbiests who are amazingly knowledgeable. Even within forums you will see those types.
I don’t mind folks providing information that may not be the best. That gives the original poster and the person who replied an opportunity to learn when someone more experienced or knowledgeable posts something that clarifies or politely challenges.
Despite my experience, I’ve actually learned from your post in the Stage Illusions thread and @willtupper’s post in @Brett Hurley ’s thread on presentation for his daughter.
Different forums have a different vibe to them. Some are more conducive to arm chair magicians, some are used as a medium for self promotion by certain magicians if their books and others are a haven for trolls who love derail threads into personal arguments. Wait, that is all one forum. Some forums are filled with newbies exposing magic, some have respected and known magicians posting regularly, some have know—it-all professionals whose performance is abysmal, some have hobbiests who are amazingly knowledgeable. Even within forums you will see those types.
I don’t mind folks providing information that may not be the best. That gives the original poster and the person who replied an opportunity to learn when someone more experienced or knowledgeable posts something that clarifies or politely challenges.
Despite my experience, I’ve actually learned from your post in the Stage Illusions thread and @willtupper’s post in @Brett Hurley ’s thread on presentation for his daughter.
I lol'd. Out loud, for real.
Most people will question and research information given to them - assuming that they both A) have a solid enough foundation of information to let them know they should question it, and B) have the motivation to do so.
It is human nature to accept any information as fact, if it supports an idea the person already believes in. Confirmation bias is an example of this concept. It's only once the person has a motivation to doubt the claim that they may put any effort into discovering its veracity.
Likewise, it's also human nature to believe anyone who speaks with confidence on a subject. We're trained from birth to assume that anyone who seems confident in their statements must have reason to believe them.
Therefore, someone who's new to magic who comes to a forum like this will read the posts and quite possibly assume whatever it says is true, if it's stated in a clear, confident manner. It's up to people who want to see good magic performed to help guide those people to the correct information as best as possible.
I will also say that this trend is why I often point out when I'm speaking from opinion, personal experience, or personal preference.
I actually really like the idea of that. Looking back I can see in my responses I'm very hardy about established credibility but I forget that fresh perspectives can be equally as good. I think the incident with Facebook being so recent it made me even more grounded in my opinion than normal. But people like CardMagicNJ who say they are knew have an advantage over us since they see everything through a fresh lenses and can relate more to laymen interests. I think that insight is very valuable.
I like the way you pointed out the different ways people respond to information. That is something to always remember when evaluating where someone's opinion is coming from. I too will try to be better in clarifying whether I'm speaking from personal experience, opinion, or preference.
You know, I gotta say that I find your above post rather insulting. You joined this Forum like a month ago, and I have given a a ton of my time and energy to sincerely try to help people and to contribute to this fabulous Forum since July 2016, with 409 posts (491 Likes). I don't believe that I or anyone else needs to provide you with documentary proof of experience or expertise. Suffice it to say that I have learned a thing or two in my 6 decades of performing magic (25 years as a pro), and apparently, the members here believe I have something valuable to offer. I honestly thought seriously of hanging it up as a participant on here after reading your post because I don't need, have time for, or deserve that kind of negativity, which is apparently all you have to offer, when you are not, as you put it, just 'lurking." That's all I have to say to you.
Didn't know that I needed to have special DNA for performing magic, if that's what you mean by background.
6 years, almost 7.
Sorry...lost count.
Last show...(which was my first post on this forum about)...about 600 people? Give or take a few.
I perform a variety of magic. But then, card magic and mind reading is what I am super-comfortable with.
Many things. Practically, I try to use whatever little knowledge I have to help others. And in that process, if I end up being wrong technically, I do try my best to accept it (talking about techniques here).
Also, don't you think you are being one of those people who start with something like 'I don't wanna sound rude' and then say something which does sound quite rude?
I tried my best to put my opinions out there, and if they were haphazard, I apologise. And if you think I am a 'fake expert', well, I can't change your views, can I?
Only thing, would you please mind being a little less insulting? I might be super rude and super stupid and have really bad knowledge of English phrasing, but that does not mean you need to play the same, do you?
Also, I'd love some of your advice on my sleights or techniques, you know...take for instance, the classic palm I am struggling with (small hands *sigh*)...
Could you help me on that instead of, you know, lurking around?
Me, or anybody here, could use some help here, you know...
No that isn't what I meant.
But see that's the point I'm trying to make. I don't think I'm proficient in that area since I don't care much for card magic. I perform more theatrical style rather than close up. So instead of feeling the need to comment on every single forum post that pops up, if you really needed help, I would instead refer you to Ryan Schlutz, Richard Turner, Dani DaOrtiz, or anyone with a background in card magic since they can give you the more appropriate advice.
Richard Turner isn’t a magician, just for the record. I can see how you would associate him with sleights though.
It could be argued as semantics, however most magicians don’t say alright now I’m going to deal seconds face up and do it so clean you have to slow the video to 25% speed. The man is a well practiced card mechanic.
It could be argued as semantics, however most magicians don’t say alright now I’m going to deal seconds face up and do it so clean you have to slow the video to 25% speed. The man is a well practiced card mechanic.
Right, I just think Richard Turner would be a better example of someone that can help with the technique than me. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a card magician but really just anyone with a card background.
@jasonkillsx - You mentioned that you've been lurking here for a while. There is something a little different about these forums than many of the others. We all have a pretty good sense of the "regulars" and we all get along pretty well.
@Al e Cat Dabra gives good advice and has a great perspective. Over the time he has been here, he has been really helpful in sharing his experience. I didn't need to know how many years he has been performing or how many shows he has done to figure that out. I can tell from his posts. We're glad he is here and contributing.
@Lord Magic loves this stuff and loves learning. Yeah, his posts ramble sometimes, but his enthusiasm and creativity make it worth reading his posts. Plus, he typically doesn't take himself too seriously.
Guys like @Maaz Hasan, @Gabriel Z. and @Antonio Diavolo are finding their footing in magic, gaining experience and expanding their knowledge base.. Given a couple of years, will be the guys giving the good advice. @Timewise64 and @Brett Hurley are relative newcomers but have a lot of knowledge and experience to share. The other moderators like @RickEverhart, @Justin.Morris, @obrienmagic and @DominusDolorum all have a great amount of experience and knowledge as does @ChristopherT. I've probably forgotten a bunch of guys, so I'll apologize in advance -- these were just supposed to be examples.
The bottom line is that we all have a good sense of each other's strengths and weaknesses. With the input of the regulars, most folks get pretty good advice and the folks who contribute grow as magicians. Ultimately, that is the goal.
@Al e Cat Dabra gives good advice and has a great perspective. Over the time he has been here, he has been really helpful in sharing his experience. I didn't need to know how many years he has been performing or how many shows he has done to figure that out. I can tell from his posts. We're glad he is here and contributing.
@Lord Magic loves this stuff and loves learning. Yeah, his posts ramble sometimes, but his enthusiasm and creativity make it worth reading his posts. Plus, he typically doesn't take himself too seriously.
Guys like @Maaz Hasan, @Gabriel Z. and @Antonio Diavolo are finding their footing in magic, gaining experience and expanding their knowledge base.. Given a couple of years, will be the guys giving the good advice. @Timewise64 and @Brett Hurley are relative newcomers but have a lot of knowledge and experience to share. The other moderators like @RickEverhart, @Justin.Morris, @obrienmagic and @DominusDolorum all have a great amount of experience and knowledge as does @ChristopherT. I've probably forgotten a bunch of guys, so I'll apologize in advance -- these were just supposed to be examples.
The bottom line is that we all have a good sense of each other's strengths and weaknesses. With the input of the regulars, most folks get pretty good advice and the folks who contribute grow as magicians. Ultimately, that is the goal.
@RealityOne Thank you for the information. Theory11 does feel different than most forums because it seems like you all have some sense of camaraderie on here.
Just to clear the air a bit here, I wanted to wait a day to respond just to let tensions cool. I never meant to offend anyone, especially to the point of them wanting to leave. Of that particular post that was mentioned, if you reread it, I was simply trying to dispute a claim made with an example of not being able to find a members information as easily as they had claimed. I didn't mean to personally offend or criticize that particular persons career and I apologize if it came across that way.
I want you all to know I deeply appreciate everyone's input who has responded to my original post. Everyone of you has posted something that has made me reevaluate my original argument and think more critically of it. I'll try not to lurk as much and be helpful in areas that I have experience in and I really hope none of you will leave the forums because you all conduct yourselves very well. In the future, if someone does take offense with something I said I hope that they will PM me and we can reconcile and come to some sort of agreement before they leave.
Just to clear the air a bit here, I wanted to wait a day to respond just to let tensions cool. I never meant to offend anyone, especially to the point of them wanting to leave. Of that particular post that was mentioned, if you reread it, I was simply trying to dispute a claim made with an example of not being able to find a members information as easily as they had claimed. I didn't mean to personally offend or criticize that particular persons career and I apologize if it came across that way.
I want you all to know I deeply appreciate everyone's input who has responded to my original post. Everyone of you has posted something that has made me reevaluate my original argument and think more critically of it. I'll try not to lurk as much and be helpful in areas that I have experience in and I really hope none of you will leave the forums because you all conduct yourselves very well. In the future, if someone does take offense with something I said I hope that they will PM me and we can reconcile and come to some sort of agreement before they leave.
@jasonkillsx - Thank you for a very mature and thoughtful response. I would love to see you chime in on discussions, you do seem that you have a lot to offer.
I definitely want to apologize (to all) as I may have over-reacted. I consider it an honor to be part of this Forum and always want to bring only positive energy here.
My final thought on this thread if I may interject is this..... The internet is a tool, and a deck of cards is a tool. If you use both of these tools in conjunction for good you will probably yield good results. My naivety is leading me down the thought that not everyone uses these tools for good i.e. hacking with the internet or throwing cards to cause injury to someone. Many people on this forum which is on the internet post their opinions irrespective of what others may think, I have been guilty of doing this myself. I firmly think that if you are going to say something on this forum it should at least be somewhat productive or helpful. To steer someone in the right direction is the point of this forum. I don't think that point of this community is to give someone all the answers on a silver platter. I started out without a clue of where I was going in card magic and after reading other peoples opinions/facts about magic I am starting to swim in the right direction(Took me long enough). I have my own goals and opinions in magic , that being said I think it will probably take me a lifetime to accomplish these goals and have them polished enough where I can present them to the strangest eye. However, for the time I'm happy doing what I'm doing and learning from books and other wonderful people on T11.
Thank you for sharing! I'm glad that the folks on here were able to help you get on a path that was best for you in developing yourself as a magician. Keep at it and best of luck to you on your journey.
I agree that nobody should act as an authority on a subject they have no experience in.
Your post suggests that if a person doesn't have hands-on experience, that makes their advice invalid. Was this your implication?