The Problem With Magic And The Internet

[jasonkillsx]

TW: This is my opinion of a controversial topic and if you can't handle a difference of opinion I encourage you not to read the rest of this post, comment on it, or do anything to receive notifications from this discussion. I hope for everyone else we can have a respectable and rational discussion in the comments.

I am part of a private Facebook group for magicians and earlier someone posted a question regarding whether they should include a razor blade swallowing act in their show. Others contributed their advice and experiences and a question came up of what methods people recommend. I recommended three that I trust and perform for stage and close up audiences. I mentioned that I also do needle swallowing but save that for close up since it doesn't play well on stage due to the sewing needles not being easily visible for audience members in the back.

There was an older gentleman that responded basically making the argument that since Houdini could make needle swallowing work on stage, anyone should be able to do it. He was basically making the argument it falls on the performer. My rebuttal was that the performance could go butter smooth but that still doesn't stop the experience being negative for the people from far away since they can't clearly see the props. Between going back and forth I eventually learned that this guy has never done any stage work nor any type of needle swallowing or razor blade swallowing. He just knew of a few stories of Houdini and thought that since he could reference historical stories his opinion was more valid than mine.

Which brings me to the point I'm trying to make with this post. The biggest problem I see with magic today is all these magicians from millions of different backgrounds coming together and spreading false information. In the case that I previously mentioned, the gentleman who commented didn't have any experience on the subject and yet he was commenting and offering advice when he personally had never had any sort of experience in the subject. I believe this happens more often than not in online magic forums where people will comment and offer "advice" on a subject they have no personal experience in. They think that since they have performed a couple of card tricks to their friends, read a couple of magic books, or watched a few magic documentaries they have the justification in offering advice when they themselves have never experienced anything in the field they are commenting on. This leads to a lot of misinformation being spread around.

I noticed this mainly with an older generation of magicians that always feel the need to offer "advice" to a younger generation. Particularly on Facebook, you may see someone looking to get into geek magic or stage magic and then you will see someone older than they are and presumably in magic longer than they have commenting all their opinions as facts. But just because they have experience in one area of magic such as card tricks or mentalism doesn't make them an authority on all things regarding magic. I wouldn't turn to Dani DaOrtiz about escapism or stage illusions and I wouldn't ask Jay Mattioli about pass advice for close-up. People need to realize what they are effective and be a mentor for that field and I highly encourage that. But when it comes to something that they don't have experience in, I think that's when it is time to let those that may be younger but have experience offer their experiences and advice. This is how we combat the spreading of misinformation when it comes to online magic communities.

TL;DR: Don't come off as an authority on a subject you don't have any personal experience in.

Would love to hear your thoughts down in the comments.

 

[RealityOne]

I think the key is to understand the basis for any advice you get and the "why" behind the reason for providing the advice. That understanding gives you the ability to determine the weight to give to the advice.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

The internet has been providing a podium for armchair "experts" in all fields for years now. Magic is no different. Every community has people that will try to make themselves seem bigger, more important, and more knowledgeable than they really are.

I do disagree about one point, though - you said it was generally the older generation that does this. I don't disagree that this is your experience, but my own experience is that plenty of younger magicians will happily pretend they know everything and give advice on subjects they have no knowledge of, even contradicting folks with decades of experience in the process.

It's really not worth worrying about.

My personal rule of thumb is that if I'm not personally familiar with the commentator's credentials, their advice is nothing more than another piece of information to consider.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

plenty of younger magicians will happily pretend they know everything and give advice on subjects they have no knowledge of, even contradicting folks with decades of experience in the process.

I've made that mistake lol

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

@jasonkillsx:

i don't think this is an issue of age, younger versus older. Forums are about free speech and everyone gets to express their opinion. If the opinion is logical and/or well supported, that is one thing; if not, that is another. The Forum member are perfectly capable of evaluating the merits (or lack thereof) of each post. They are the judge and jury, and can formulate their own opinions based on the particular post. Different opinions, even if (actually, especially if) controversial, are the lifeblood of wonderful forums like Theory 11. No one is, as you put it, "an authority on all things concerning magic." But like you said, if their opinion is not logical or based on genuine experience, it can be rebutted, as you stated you did in this particular case.

 

[jasonkillsx]

I think the key is to understand the basis for any advice you get and the "why" behind the reason for providing the advice. That understanding gives you the ability to determine the weight to give to the advice.

Excellent point! Thank you for sharing.

 

[jasonkillsx]

I do disagree about one point, though - you said it was generally the older generation that does this. I don't disagree that this is your experience, but my own experience is that plenty of younger magicians will happily pretend they know everything and give advice on subjects they have no knowledge of, even contradicting folks with decades of experience in the process.

I agree and the way you put it was more eloquent in that it has been my personal experience, particularly with Facebook. With Facebook it's easier to check the background of people in a discussion where as a forum such as this anyone can be anonymous and it's harder to know their credentials. It's just that typically those that are new will think that any advice given to them is someone that has more experience than them and that's not always the case. My theory is that beginners won't check the credentials before listening to advice. I know I have made that mistake before. But on a site like theory11 where people are hidden by avatars I can easily see where a less experienced young person thinks they have validity over someone that is actually experienced in a particular field. But usually the more experienced people can see right through the shallow advice and take it as simply another piece of information as you put it. My fear is those not experienced enough in magic will take the advice of anyone who appears experienced and that can lead to a rabbit hole of bad real life experiences.

 

[jasonkillsx]

i don't think this is an issue of age, younger versus older. Forums are about free speech and everyone gets to express their opinion. If the opinion is logical and/or well supported, that is one thing; if not, that is another. The Forum member are perfectly capable of evaluating the merits (or lack thereof) of each post. They are the judge and jury, and can formulate their own opinions based on the particular post. Different opinions, even if (actually, especially if) controversial, are the lifeblood of wonderful forums like Theory 11. No one is, as you put it, "an authority on all things concerning magic." But like you said, if their opinion is not logical or based on genuine experience, it can be rebutted, as you stated you did in this particular case.

Once Christopher pointed the young vs. old part out I realized my mistake of making a general statement instead of clarifying it as my own personal experience. I did not intend to make it an ageist issue and for that I apologize.

I do disagree with you on people evaluating where information comes from though. In my experience, beginners soak up any information they can like a sponge and don't think to double check the background of the sources they have found. Furthermore, look at all the social engineering occurring on social media that spreads false information all over the place. People are not as likely to check sources and backgrounds as you may think.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

It is fair-minded of you to rethink and admit that this is not an age issue. However, as far as what you are saying about "disagreeing" with me, you are disagreeing with something I never said. If you look back at my post, I did not say that people will evaluate "where information comes from" or that they will "check sources and backgrounds.'" I believe my point was that people are capable of evaluating for themselves the logic and/or support (if any) given for a particular post. So are we really, as you said, "disagreeing" here?

 

[RealityOne]

But on a site like theory11 where people are hidden by avatars I can easily see where a less experienced young person thinks they have validity over someone that is actually experienced in a particular field. But usually the more experienced people can see right through the shallow advice and take it as simply another piece of information as you put it. My fear is those not experienced enough in magic will take the advice of anyone who appears experienced and that can lead to a rabbit hole of bad real life experiences.

Typically on forums like T11, there are enough "regulars" that will correct bad advice and let people know when someone has given good advice. Those regulars typically have the experience and knowledge to back up their advice.

 

[jasonkillsx]

I believe my point was that people are capable of evaluating for themselves the logic and/or support (if any) given for a particular post. So are we really, as you said, "disagreeing" here?

That is what I'm disagreeing with.

Let's use you as an example. You're just some guy on theory11 with a rabbit coming out of a top hat with a wand and ace of spades card. I don't see any website info, personal name info, or anything to link me to your background. For all I know you could be a guy who is never had a paid gig or you could be David Copperfield. The point is it's hard to know if the logic and/or support is strong because we don't know where the information is coming from.

 

[jasonkillsx]

Typically on forums like T11, there are enough "regulars" that will correct bad advice and let people know when someone has given good advice. Those regulars typically have the experience and knowledge to back up their advice.

I'm more of a long time lurker that gets more enjoyment out of reading discussions on here than participating. I've been lurking for about the past three years or so. I do see some familiar faces from time to time but it's still hard for me to see who has a background in what. I know that you, Christopher, Obrien, and a few others have experience because I believe both you and Christopher have seen each other perform and Obrien has actual footage of his performances. But there are less of you than a lot of avatars that try to give advice.

Plus that would only be helpful to someone who frequents the site. What about a newbie to the site that is asking about illusion help for example? They could end up losing a lot of money in the case of illusions if given the wrong advice.

 

[ChrisJGJ]

That is what I'm disagreeing with.

Let's use you as an example. You're just some guy on theory11 with a rabbit coming out of a top hat with a wand and ace of spades card. I don't see any website info, personal name info, or anything to link me to your background. For all I know you could be a guy who is never had a paid gig or you could be David Copperfield. The point is it's hard to know if the logic and/or support is strong because we don't know where the information is coming from.

I'm more of a long time lurker that gets more enjoyment out of reading discussions on here than participating. I've been lurking for about the past three years or so. I do see some familiar faces from time to time but it's still hard for me to see who has a background in what. I know that you, Christopher, Obrien, and a few others have experience because I believe both you and Christopher have seen each other perform and Obrien has actual footage of his performances. But there are less of you than a lot of avatars that try to give advice.

Plus that would only be helpful to someone who frequents the site. What about a newbie to the site that is asking about illusion help for example? They could end up losing a lot of money in the case of illusions if given the wrong advice.

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abe Lincoln.

 

[Lord Magic]

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abe Lincoln.

Very true.

 

[Lord Magic]

That is what I'm disagreeing with.

Let's use you as an example. You're just some guy on theory11 with a rabbit coming out of a top hat with a wand and ace of spades card. I don't see any website info, personal name info, or anything to link me to your background. For all I know you could be a guy who is never had a paid gig or you could be David Copperfield. The point is it's hard to know if the logic and/or support is strong because we don't know where the information is coming from.

As said earlier, don't believe everything you read or see on the internet.

I have a strong feeling that you are underestimating the intelligence of beginners a lot. What you are saying, from what I have seen, is not really true today, when the internet, although provides (as well pointed out earlier) a podium for armchair "experts" in all fields for years now, it also, atleast TODAY, provides access to lots of genuine information.
Again, I point to something already said before, that is, if someone (say) uses TXI as a resource, they will find bad advice getting pointed out pretty quickly by the ones who can actually do good magic.

So this means, that beginners are in safe hands in most places ONLINE, and surprisingly, it is in real life that the danger of swallowing wrong info magnifies.
Even if actual expert advice is not handed out readily to the beginners, most people today have the sense to look stuff up. Reason? The huge amount of fake information doing the rounds EVERYWHERE.

So for example, if I want to learn how to do push-ups BY MYSELF I won't just look at one tutorial on YT and be like, "Okay, this is it."
I will look for other tutorials, and if there is any controversial topic regarding it, I will look it up specifically, like I might search,
"Is it really necessary to have your hands on the sides of your chest while doing a push-up?"

Reason again?: Because although I am not 50 years old, I do realise that incorrect push-ups can injure me severely.

HOWEVER, if in real life, I decide to join a gym, just imagine how biased I would become! Just because the instructor is muscly, just because the fees is high, just because many people learn from him, I will not even think of double-checking what he says! But the problem here becomes the fact that incorrect push-ups might have given him a great body, but maybe that is not his full potential and he suffers slight back pain due to it, which in my case will become a lot of pain and almost no muscle-benefits at all?

What I am trying to say is, most people here ALWAYS double-check information. What, you read a celebrity is dead? Of course you'll check it once more! Why? Because you have been tricked by such news before and don't want to appear like a doofus propagating fake news!

So...one has to be really unaware and really foolish today to absorb wrong information online.

 

[Lord Magic]

It is definitely not an age issue...although it HAS been cleared and I don't want to bring it up for no reason again, just wanted to put down my thoughts on it since, because, well...see, this topic is not COMPLETEY irrelevant.

Neither are the older generation always being biased about stuff, neither are the younger generation pretending to be smarter than usual.

It is just someone trying to look like an expert. And it is these fake experts who contribute negatively in almost any field. So that is what I call them, fake experts, not the 'older generation'...not the 'younger generation'.

Idiots come in all shapes, sizes, forms, and ages.

 

[jasonkillsx]

@Lord Magic Not to be rude, but it's hard for me to argue for you or against you because your arguments and logic are scattered all over your post in an incoherent manner. Typically when you make arguments you follow the implication rule of p->q which basically means that since p is true it can be implied that q is also true.

As said earlier, don't believe everything you read or see on the internet.

I think you are missing the point of this post, I don't personally believe everything I read on the internet. My issue that I raised was that there is a lot of false information being spread around by those with no experience in certain areas making claims as if they were experienced and thus from what I have seen a lot of beginners may fall trap into taking their opinion as fact.

So this means, that beginners are in safe hands in most places ONLINE, and surprisingly, it is in real life that the danger of swallowing wrong info magnifies.

Source? It seems like you made that claim up on your own since everything I have seen contradicts that claim.

most people today have the sense to look stuff up. Reason? The huge amount of fake information doing the rounds EVERYWHERE.

Come on now you can't honestly believe that's true. Have you ever heard of #PizzaGate? Or seen all the misinformation being spread about David Hogg or other instances of that nature that thousands of people still believe to this day? It "doing the rounds EVERYWHERE" as you put it only validates what I said about most people not fact checking. If people did in fact check their information, do you really think it would be as spread as it is now?

It is definitely not an age issue...although it HAS been cleared and I don't want to bring it up for no reason again, just wanted to put down my thoughts on it since, because, well...see, this topic is not COMPLETEY irrelevant.

My god why do you people keep bringing this up? I already tried to correct my original post on it by saying I didn't intend to make a general statement but was just pointing out my personal experience especially since the example I raised was pretty current. Why can't you people move on from it and focus on the main argument I was trying to make?

 

[jasonkillsx]

@Lord Magic Actually it's kind of funny that you commented on this thread because you are kind of proving my point. You are making all these claims and I have been asking for a source since they seem ridiculous and made up to me. I'm not sure if you are posting ironically or to test me but you are kind of the person I am talking about.

I'm curious, what is your background in magic? How many years have you been performing? How many shows have you done? On average, how many people attend your shows? Do you have a variety of magic you can perform or do you focus in one specific field? What of your experiences makes you think your opinion is of any value?

 

[CardMagicNJ]

Ok, I'm a total Newbie, and those of you who know me already know that. Let me give you my expert advice, lmao, totally kidding by the way. Anyway, for someone like myself, I just stay humble and in my eyes I strive to reach perfection so kind of will never technically have anything nailed, lol. Every performer has his/her own style, and of course I listen to advice but that doesn't mean you have to take it. For example, I learn a trick from a book, watch a performance on YouTube, look up the original name, creator, etc. And see the original slights for it. Now just from researching all that, I can come to my own conclusion on deciding for myself for which slight I'd feel comfortable using. I'm 6'6 and have huge hands, so what I'm comfortable with may not match up with the average performers advice who is probably a little shorter. One thing also I do is just directly ask someone who I know is experienced. Theory 11, has amazing, freaking amazing magicians on here, mods, etc. I'm trying to be a sponge soaking it all up. Some are gifted in history, performance, personality, so on. We can all learn from each other. All you need is love, love, Love is all you need !! Have no clue how I ended with that, kind of went on a rant sorry all,......ok.... Next....

 

[jasonkillsx]

Ok, I'm a total Newbie, and those of you who know me already know that. Let me give you my expert advice, lmao, totally kidding by the way. Anyway, for someone like myself, I just stay humble and in my eyes I strive to reach perfection so kind of will never technically have anything nailed, lol. Every performer has his/her own style, and of course I listen to advice but that doesn't mean you have to take it. For example, I learn a trick from a book, watch a performance on YouTube, look up the original name, creator, etc. And see the original slights for it. Now just from researching all that, I can come to my own conclusion on deciding for myself for which slight I'd feel comfortable using. I'm 6'6 and have huge hands, so what I'm comfortable with may not match up with the average performers advice who is probably a little shorter. One thing also I do is just directly ask someone who I know is experienced. Theory 11, has amazing, freaking amazing magicians on here, mods, etc. I'm trying to be a sponge soaking it all up. Some are gifted in history, performance, personality, so on. We can all learn from each other. All you need is love, love, Love is all you need !! Have no clue how I ended with that, kind of went on a rant sorry all,......ok.... Next....

Great to hear from your perspective. Thank you for sharing!