Two effects I'd die to know more about!

Sep 16, 2009
39
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Let me clear it up by going back to your previous post as well:

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praetoritevong said:
Firstly - I do not feel that my posts have been demeaning. I give people ample opportunity to provide evidence, and I do not feel that this has been satisfactorily done in this circumstance. I sympathise with English issues (technically, it's not my first language either), but ethics have nothing to do with language, and I think that my requests for proof have been suitably comprehensible.

Please read:

Aviva said:
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sorry for my english but i didnt really get the "magicians that supposedly condone stealing". ironicaly the quote about it not make sense was from the same magician those effects were from. unlike me he saw where you went with it but didnt agree.
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praetoritevong said:
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And you still haven't answered my question. When essentially every single magician who is considered the best in the industry endorses a particular point of view, it is not by accident that this happens. I am asking if the people who disagree with me have the authority or the experience to contradict this view, or whether they have had no experience with it whatsoever.

I am not suggesting that we take others' word for something as lore, but when it is an accepted principle by, as I said, the leading identities in the field, then there is obviously significant weight behind the argument. And it is no small matter that the masters of magic unanimously disagree with your opinion. This is not a matter of me and my opinion merely in a forum, but the generally accepted viewpoint. So since you contend that it is not a generally accepted viewpoint, I am asking whether the people who you use to defend your point of view have any weight or experience, or not.
See what's going on there? He told you he didn't understand it and you got annoyed and asked him again, not even using any easier words for him to understand. Do you really think that helps? Obviously your English is way better than his, so is mine, but if he says that he has issues with it the least one could do is to clear it up for him, since you expected him to give an answer.

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praetoritevong said:
And secondly - I disagree that he gave him permission to perform the effects if he could find them. It is duly noted that on page 3, Aviva claims to have permission - but given about half a dozen other posts to the contrary, of which I have given two, and given that he has claimed other things without being able to back them up, I do not think it unreasonable that I treat such statements skeptically.

In any case, I and others still feel that his arguments for his ethical judgments are incorrect - and as I stated above, he has made claims, regarding industry known creators of magic, but has been unable to back them up - and has been unable to address other issues presented to him as well. Therefore he has not gotten any help, because he's asking, in our opinion, for something unethical.

So on the whole, again, I do not see my admitted skepticism as unwarranted.
Read my previous post. He has only been telling you that he had permission, never that he didn't. Yes, maybe the magician did give him fake names, but if even the effects are unknown to the world, I really don't see any reason of faking the names. I guess you never heard of the described effects either, no matter what name they would have, do you?

And again, you can't expect someone to back himself up if he doesn't know what you are talking about. Even then, I think he has been backing himself well enough, especially when thinking of the language problems.

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praetoritevong said:
Your post seems to be a bit confused. You start off by defending Aviva, then question the discussion on ethics in this topic, then criticised my posts, then went back to supporting Aviva. And then had a brief paragraph on time better spent? I'm not sure that there's a central point. And it's interesting that you attacked me for being demeaning, and then dropped it as soon as I answered back. Feels very much a drop and run argument - drop anything that gets sufficiently contradicted and run with anything else you can think of. Nonetheless I will attempt to address the individual parts as best as possible.
Obviously we have a problem over here. You think he has an attitude problem, but I want to bet that he thinks that you have an attitude problem for attacking him and not clearing up your question when he told you he didn't understand it. He gave an answer which he thought was the answer you were looking for. Therefore it didn't look like you were giving him a chance to give evidence, but it looked like you were demanding it instead.

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praetoritevong said:
As I explained above, I believe that I have ample reason to be skeptical - namely because, when asked for details, he has conveniently disappeared/ignored posts. Saying that Jonathan Bayme gave me permission to burn all T11 DVDs doesn't make it so. If I came onto the forums, and posted a series of posts essentially saying "hey guys jb said of course i could take his effect. but he doesn't want to tell me what effect it is." - objectively speaking, how convincing is that? The first quote you gave does not even give assent. Not to mention that the posts where the magician supposedly gave assent only came after he was called out on it several times. I hope you can see that it's not particularly convincing, his "proof". Again: "of course lee asher said i could burn witness anytime. where can i buy it?" is not good enough for me. If that's good enough for you, then we obviously have different standards of evidence.
That must be it. We obviously have different standards because I don't care whoever he quoted, even if it would've been a 6 year old boy who said that, it was from a very decent professional point of view. Also, I don't expect that magician not to be any good or experienced if he came up with those effects.

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praetoritevong said:
If I am indeed wrong, then, as per all my other points, it would be very easy to correct. *hint*
Done.

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praetoritevong said:
I got it very well, thank you for your concern. I have stated, quite clearly, what constitutes ethical actions, and my reasons for it. If that isn't helpful, it is only because one is not willing to agree or consider that argument. I can only suggest that your opinion is perhaps creating a personal bias between "agreement" and "helpfulness".

I understand what Aviva is saying; I just think he's wrong, and so does, as far as I know, every single master of the art of magic. As I said before to Aviva: If you would like evidence of this, please email Jason England, or Alain Nu, or John Carney, etc. They can probably express better than I could anyway. In any case, that point has been made before. From my point of view, it's pretty clear that Aviva doesn't understand our argument except to answer with stubborn denial and questionable "evidence".
Please read above.

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praetoritevong said:
I'm not really sure what you want me to say with that. You've essentially said, "I disagree with A, therefore I'd rather be arguing B."

So I will simply conclude by saying that you are mistaken if you think that my life somehow revolves around this thread, or that I devote hours in search of a perfect reply. In fact, I'm going out to perform in about an hour. But if someone posted here asking for downloaded material, I would spend as much time as I have here arguing that point, if I believe that I am right.
It's not that I perfectly agree with Aviva. I wouldn't be able to see a live magician and a book as the exact same thing. He says he does, and if he is able to do so, all we can do it leave him to that because then he's doing great.

On the other hand, I don't think you are right either. I see where you are going but I would go with Brad's "Its his choice." and Pj's "do what you're doing, but expect to stop growing sooner than later." because if he is really able to do what he says he does, he won't 'stop growing' anytime soon.
 
Sep 16, 2009
39
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I don't think he's done any soon though, but you're very welcome. And yes, I'm Dutch as well. Please read and reply to the PM I just sent you.
 
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