theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards

Wire copyright issues?

Rneogy

Rneogy

Dec 20, 2009
672
9
Massachusetts
Hey so I was wondering. What if we have for example a card trick that uses a certain already published or well known move, like a control, or a switch. Not that it's the entire trick, its just part of it. Could we still publish it?

Like one of my tricks, uses a variation of Shifty. Could I publish it?
 
Rneogy said:
Like one of my tricks, uses a variation of Shifty. Could I publish it?
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Not without the permission of the creator, in this case. When you submit something on The Wire, you certify that it's entirely your own creation, or you have permission (explicitly) in any case that it's not. This applies to every aspect of your video, including the music. If you didn't make it, it should be royalty free - or you must otherwise have the ability to include it.

The only exception would be things that are age old or in the public domain. But Shifty would certainly not fall in that category. Just like I can't publish my unique karaoke take on Katy Perry's last album (although I would like to), the same applies here - I'd need her permission to do that. In this metaphor, Chris Kenner is Katy Perry due to their similar vocal abilities and svelte figure.
 
I have a lovely ace type routine, uses 3 well known old tricks all combined together into one great routine....no idea who the "creators" of those moves are (in truth, they are ages old) ...one example is the 2 card monte routine
 
What if the creator is no longer living? I do an Ace production that uses Marlo's ATFUS (or I guess we should call it Elmsley's...) and the Vernon/Christ/Annemann Alignment Move.

Is there a standard for crediting? Is it enough to just mention the name of the creator, or should we say where it was published, when it was published, etc. Should we have a copy of the original publication on hand to show?
 
jprace said:
What if the creator is no longer living? I do an Ace production that uses Marlo's ATFUS (or I guess we should call it Elmsley's...) and the Vernon/Christ/Annemann Alignment Move.

Is there a standard for crediting? Is it enough to just mention the name of the creator, or should we say where it was published, when it was published, etc. Should we have a copy of the original publication on hand to show?
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Or could you just kill the creator?? (just kidding)
 
That works, too!

What if the move is well known, but the creator is still living, such as Vallarino's Rumba Count?
 
The standard of ethics in magic if the creator is still living is that permission must be granted if you're going to teach something that is not yours. If it's an entirely different variation (merely inspired by their work), you're in a gray area, but if in doubt, ask.

Although a move or trick may not technically be copyrightable, it's considered ethically sound to receive permission from the creator if they're still around. If the move or sleight is age old, then proper crediting would suffice.
 
Hmm, I'm not sure that's totally true. There must be hundreds of tricks in print that use and teach the Ghost (Elmsley) Count, but I wonder how many of them asked for his permission when he was still living.

What about old plots with new methods? Can I teach a Card Warp, for example?
 
j.bayme said:
Not without the permission of the creator, in this case. When you submit something on The Wire, you certify that it's entirely your own creation, or you have permission (explicitly) in any case that it's not. This applies to every aspect of your video, including the music. If you didn't make it, it should be royalty free - or you must otherwise have the ability to include it.

The only exception would be things that are age old or in the public domain. But Shifty would certainly not fall in that category. Just like I can't publish my unique karaoke take on Katy Perry's last album (although I would like to), the same applies here - I'd need her permission to do that. In this metaphor, Chris Kenner is Katy Perry due to their similar vocal abilities and svelte figure.
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say that you have a sleight based on the ego change that you want to publish. If the sleight is only based on the ego change in that it does that thing with the pinky (herafter named as the thing with the pinky) and the thing with the pinky is used in other sleights such as the venus fly trap, would that particular move no matter how varied on still be a copyright issue as it is used in the ego change?
 
jprace said:
Hmm, I'm not sure that's totally true. There must be hundreds of tricks in print that use and teach the Ghost (Elmsley) Count, but I wonder how many of them asked for his permission when he was still living.

What about old plots with new methods? Can I teach a Card Warp, for example?
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Yes, you can teach a card warp, if the method is new. Again, like music, think of plots in magic like genres in music. You can't stop someone releasing a rap song but you can stop them releasing an identical rap songs.

As for past published material that was released without permission from the living creator, they shouldn't have done it. Period. It's ethically wrong. What they should have done, is refer to the move, direct the reader on where to find it and point out what the move achieves. I.e. A false count of 4 cards, hiding the back of 2 cards.

Hope this helps,

Lloyd.
 
im pretty sure dainel garcia was not the first to pull a card off the top with pinky and put it to the bottom....but what an ego lol either way jus create material have fun....
 
Hey Rneogy, Randomly, I'm an attorney, so I suppose I can chime in on the copyright issue. You can't actually copyright a card move. Even if you write up a really long, complex description of it in a book. (Though your wording and the book COULD be copyrighted). BUT, that said, t11 still has the right to reject a trick for using an unoriginal move. And it makes sense that they'd want to. (People come to The Wire to discover new, original magic). So in the end, I guess the question would be: How much new stuff is your trick bringing to the table? If the already-done move is just a small part of it, I'm sure JB and everybody would be happy to see the submission.

(To summarize: the issue of whether you can published on The Wire is separate from the issue of whether you can publish the trick while avoiding a charge of copyright infringement.)
 
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