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Magics relation to cheating at cards

Discussion in 'Magic Forum' started by c.t, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. c.t

    c.t

    EDIT: I DONT PLAY FOR MONEY I JUST FIND THE MOVES INTERSTING AND MY FRIENDS ARE COOL WITH IT, WERE NOT IDIOTS WE KNOW PLAYING FOR MONEY IS DANGEROUS.
    Hey, so I got into card cheating about 6 months ago and this never struck me until recently, i was reading expert at the card table by S.W.E and one of the things it said in the introduction was "being suspected of skill is the death blow to the professional" this made me start wondering because ive been doing magic for about 2 years and cardistry about a year and i almost always have cards in my hands flourishing or something so it gets to me because if people know im skilled in sleight of hand and flourishing then naturally theyre going to wonder if i cheat or not and start looking for it in a game, i normally play with my mates cause thats about the only game i can get at my age and they already know im a magician so they go hawkeye on me to try spot me cheating, i get caught 1 in 10 games but theres always pressure and its very hard to get away with palms and passes, if your still reading this incredibly large passage i want to know what you would do in my position (give up one of them or what cause i cant choose!!) thanks for reading this massive thing and any help is appreciated :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
  2. Just by "giving up" on magic won't make your friends think you don't cheat anymore. That's one of those things that you can't really change in life. For them you are a magician and a cheater ( not saying it in a bad way ) and that won't change. This will only make you better.
     
  3. c.t

    c.t

    thats the thing though, i spend more time practising cheating but in everyones mind im already the magic dude so i cant suggest a game of poker or blackjack withought everyone suspecting me :/
     
  4. I've never been particularly interested in cheating, however when I'm playing any form of card game with my friends most of the time they refuse to let me deal. Most people don't really make much of a distinction between magic and cheating techniques and assume if you do one you can do the other. Erdnase was absolutely correct when he stated that even if there is the least amount of suspicion you've already failed. Even if you stop doing magic, this suspicion would remain.

    If you really wanted to cheat the best way would be to find a new group of people to play with who don't know you, although if you are caught cheating with them they may not deal with it quite as graciously as your friends. I'd suggest it's not an area really worth getting involved in, especially as you get older, the responses to being detected will likely get much worse.

    I guess the question is, what exactly are you hoping to achieve with your card cheating?
     
  5. As already said, I don't think giving up Magic or Cardistry would change anything, because
    they know you have/had the skills, so you are able to do this, weather you are still practising it or not.

    When I'm playing for money, I never ever cheat, because in my opinion it's just as bad as stealing or such.
    That's not my cup of tea...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2013
  6. You are attempting to do the moves before you are ready to do them and you have poisoned this pool of card players. Everyone that has played with you, and caught you, and everyone that they talk to about card playing will probably know you're a cheater and won't play any games with any real stakes if they are even remotely intelligent.

    I don't know if it's just the way I perform, but I've never really gotten the "I don't want to play cards with you!" thing due to my magic. Actually, my unofficial troupe photographer has been trying to get me in on his poker games for ages I just never have the buy in when the time comes around.

    At this point, there's not much of anything you can do to un-poison this well. You have to find a new area to play in, and playing with new people and cheating can land you in hospital pretty quickly.

    Either keep practicing and get to the skill level you should have been at before trying this stuff in the first place, then try it under the hawkeyes of people who already know you're cheating, or practice and find new targets.

    But better suggestion - stop cheating at cards because it probably won't end well for you.
     
  7. D@n

    D@n

    Why are you cheating at a game with friends? Sure you can test a method every once in a while, but if you're doing it the majority of the time that's a little cruel. They're your friends, you should try to keep it that way.
     
  8. JokerZingo

    JokerZingo Elite Member

    I say like everyone else you shouldn't cheat in a card game.
    It's wrong to cheat at every level and if you get caught cheating you are in big trouble.
    In what you wrote you seam to enjoy practicing card cheating so in this case you can choose 2 different roads.

    The first is you practice the card cheating moves till you can't see what you are doing/when you do it(film yourself) and than you execute it under their eyes, it's extremely hard to get your card cheating moves into this condition. You can also play with other guys but I wouldn't recommend this like everyone else mentioned if you get caught you won't have a good time.

    The other road you can take is to practice the moves to use in your shows. Just to demonstrate in your shows. which I found people are really intresed in gambling and how it works and how easy it is to decive usal layman with it.

    But other than that I got no answer but use it shows other than that stay away from gambling in real life. It's not as easy to get away with it as they make out in films.

    But my tips is don't cheat in real life games.

    Thanks - Markus/JokerZingo
     
  9. c.t

    c.t

    To be honest the reason i got into magic was because i find it interesting how its so easy to do certain moves right in front of them withought them knowing, cheating is just that i dont play for money because that makes me a thief but manipulating the game every few rounds for my own fun is not stealing, unfair maybe but not theft
     
  10. c.t

    c.t

    Im not stealing their money, i dont have the heart to take money from anyone because its stealing with a different name, i normally cheat 1 in 5 rounds of me dealing just to try new methods or ideas and if im caught i dont cheat the rest of the game, but frankly theyre not the type who get mad at me cheating but more like proud they spotted the move so to both of us its fun but a bit more for them
     
  11. Which has changed the nature of the game from "Try to win" to "try to spot him cheating". As I said, you've poisoned this well. A significantly long time without cheating may lull them back into a sense of you having given it up, but they will always at least be half watching you for signs.

    Perhaps we're misunderstanding the whole point of this thread. What exactly is your question?
     
  12. So you acknowledge that it's unfair that you do this, but still expect people to play with you anyway? No, dude. You burned that bridge. Deal with it.

    People will only play a game if they know going in that it's fair. Losing to someone with more experience, talent, and/or skill may rankle a bit from time to time, but they know the rules were fair and everybody played by them. You break the rules for your own advantage. You broke the unwritten contract of the game. You have no one to blame but yourself.
     
  13. Problem not in you but in your complete misunderstanding of basic card technique at the table. Thought magicians and card cheaters using same moves, the sole purpose is absolutely different. Even with same mechanics, moves are done with absolutely different timing and speed. Magician will never become a good card cheater and vice versa.

    P.S i assume you play poker. Its a great game to play fair. Cheating makes it very dull.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2013
  14. I don't know about that one. Perhaps there's a translation issue? There's nothing stopping a cheater from becoming a good magician (Daniel Madison, S. W. Erdnase) and there's nothing stopping a magician from learning how to use his skills to cheat. Both of them have the bonus of knowing sleight of hand. In the case of the cheat, they are adapt at doing things when they will not be noticed so they just have to do that in an entertaining way. The magician just needs to adjust his timing and realize that it's not a performance.

    Yes, there will be a learning curve but to assume they become mutually exclusive is folly.
     
  15. c.t

    c.t

    My question was is there anything i can do to stop my friends thinking im not cheating, the responses said either, stop cheating or find new people to play with, if im honest im not particularly fond of either of those ideas, so i think i might just start doing "gambling demonstrations" because most already know me as a magician or a cheat anyway
     
  16. That's why I refer to it as poisoning the well. It takes a really long time to go away. Honestly, the only way I think you can make your friends believe you're not cheating is to be so extremely above board that the game may not even be fun for you any more. Basically, never even lift your own cards off the table. Flip them over with your fingertips. Use a shuffling machine and 'deal' by sliding them off the top and to the player. Eliminate the possibility of cheating, and do this for a solid year or so and they may stop thinking you're going to cheat.

    It doesn't matter if you like it, you've screwed yourself. You've been caught repeatedly. You've built the pattern in their head that you are a cheater. That takes a really, really long time to erase, and any back slipping will put you back to square one. You could be totally legit for years, and if one of them is kind of remembering when you used to cheat, and they even think you're cheating then, you might as well have been cheating the whole time.

    This is what happens when you get caught repeatedly. That is, if it's not a game where they break your legs.
     
  17. Madison never was a good card cheat, like Erdanese never was a magician. Good card cheat will never show or admit that he know simplest slight and especial show it off in public. Such is the rule of a card cheat.
     
  18. That's not quite accurate. There are lots of genuine cheats who are also interested in card magic. Maybe they wouldn't bust out a flourish at the card table, but among friends they certainly would. I don't know whether Daniel Madison was a good card cheat or not, but what makes you say that Erdnase wasn't a magician?
     
  19. My personal opinion. If he was the magician card tricks section of his book would have more tricks. No one can say who really was Erdanese, and that was not the topic of discussion.
     
  20. Unless he was the type who made use of a few tricks to great effect.
     

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