Now that all the stupid drama has cooled down. I want some honest opinions. Who truely is the G.O.A.T?
Who is the true expert at the card table?
- Thread starter 010rusty
- Start date
For sleight of hand, based on breadth and depth of work:
Jean Hugard
Dai Vernon
Eddie Marlo
Roberto Giobbi
Darwin Ortiz
Jean Hugard
Dai Vernon
Eddie Marlo
Roberto Giobbi
Darwin Ortiz
DM is great too, especially since his work is near 100% gambling based.
I agree w/ Reality. I would also like to throw Jason England in the mix.
I agree w/ Reality. I would also like to throw Jason England in the mix.
Based on amount of creativity and the small portion of videoed performance Marlo is probably my Greatest of All Time.
Jason England is great but he says that Steve Forte is one of the most natural card handlers alive. I differ to his judgment.
Someone like Ricky Jay is incredibly entertaining. I love watching him work. He says that Charlie Miller and Dai Vernon were the best of all time.
Then there is Richard Turner who Dai Vernon gave very glowing praise.
I think that right now Max Maven, Jon Racherbaumer and Jason England probably know more about card magic than anyone else on the planet.
I'm confident that he will continue to work his tail off to try to prove magicians like me wrong. Best of luck to him I can't wait to see what he comes up with next.
Jason England is great but he says that Steve Forte is one of the most natural card handlers alive. I differ to his judgment.
Someone like Ricky Jay is incredibly entertaining. I love watching him work. He says that Charlie Miller and Dai Vernon were the best of all time.
Then there is Richard Turner who Dai Vernon gave very glowing praise.
I think that right now Max Maven, Jon Racherbaumer and Jason England probably know more about card magic than anyone else on the planet.
I'm confident that he will continue to work his tail off to try to prove magicians like me wrong. Best of luck to him I can't wait to see what he comes up with next.
Last edited:
I am Erdnase. Bow before me.
It doesn't matter who is what. The only thing that matters is that you are the best at what you do. Quit living as if you are in the shadow of others. Start performing like you're the one casting all the shadows.
It doesn't matter who is what. The only thing that matters is that you are the best at what you do. Quit living as if you are in the shadow of others. Start performing like you're the one casting all the shadows.
The context implies Card cheating, for which I would say Walter Irving Scott. I am excluding erdnase because we don't really know who he was, and cannot comment on his success as a gambler other than that he was clearly very good at what he did. Although Allen Kennedy and Dad Stevens both developed more original moves, Scott was a highly skilled, and well rounded technician, who managed to make it to a seemingly fairly comfortable retirement.
Erdnase wasn't a single person. Clearly the book was written by at least two people, if not more. One of the authors was obviously a card cheat, and the other a magician.
Interesting theory. I've always thought it was one person -- either a magician who wants to gain credibility as portraying himself as a card cheat (which is the more likely scenario becasue many of the card cheating slights wouldn't work in a game) or a card cheat who added magic tricks to make the book more able to be sold (which I think is what is claimed in the book).
Wouldn't it be cool to have a movie "Erdnase", which like "Rashimon", shows the different possible truths. OK, I don't make films, but if I did they'd have a Samurai. (See what I did there?)
Yeah, I called BS when I heard that theory as well but then it was pointed out to me that the writing style shifts mid way. And it made sense. There really should be a movie about it. It's got mystery, intrigue, and you could do a LOT with it.
Well, I think we can all agree that erdnase is certainly the most iconic. Nothing beats that kind of enigma.
I asked Richard Hatch, the foremost living expert on the identity of Erdnase, about the multiple persons theory. This was his response:
"Hi Josh. Well, I'm not sure how "popular" the theory is currently, but Martin Gardner's early research led to the conjecture that James "Harto" Harte, an Indiana magic dealer and Wild West Sideshow performer might have helped by adding the Legerdemain material, particularly the patter. "
"I don't personally believe it, though I do believe that Harto had contact with the author and may well have been collaborating on a sequel (!). "
"Busby and Whaley argued forcefully that William J. Hilliar (not John Northern Hilliard) had "ghosted" the book in collaboration with the card cheat Milton Franklin Andrews."
"Jerry Sadowitz believes that Robert F. Foster played the Hilliar role with MFA."
"I don't personally see the evidence of multiple authorship, though I do see a chance in tone/attitude between the card table artifice and Legerdemain sections. Some of the speculation is based on the use of the "authorial we" and the assumption that this is evidence of multiple authors, but that doesn't hold much weight."
I tend to side with Richard Hatch on most things regarding Erdnase. I think I differ to his judgment when he says that it's a single author.
I would like to point out I am very surprised that Madison is winning the pole. And erdnase is last. I figured other would have a pretty heavily favored lead....
This isn't "clear" at all to most of the experts on the authorship issue. What makes you so certain? A tonal shift between the Artifice and Legerdemain sections? I don't see any such tonal shift, but even if I did, there are several other explanations that are more likely than two authors.
Jason
There are and have been so many great card men, past and present, there can be no "right" answer. It's a bit like saying what the best flavor ice cream is or what the best wine is. It's the one you like. Personally, I'm going to go with Bill Malone. It may be because I have seen him at work in person so many times, and my eyes never failed to pop out of my head with disbelief. It doesn't hurt that his mentor was Marlo (who is the most impressive I have seen on video). As for Bill, I think what he has done with Sam the Bellhop, standing alone, puts him in the highest echelon of the greatest card workers ever - yet it is only the tip of the iceberg of what he can do... If the question was put to Bill himself, I believe I am safe in saying that his answer would be Steve Forte. As for Erdnase, well, even the Erdnase experts do not agree on who he even was, much less able to testify as to his abilities with a deck of cards...
How about I become completely mad and say, Daily Vernon?
Honestly I feel the professor was good at everything he tried.
Honestly I feel the professor was good at everything he tried.
Everything he tried? No. Everything he did. Yes. There'sa difference.
Furthermore, I think he's up there but wouldn't the real expert be focusing more so on Gambling moves solely?