Enough With Card Flourishes?

Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
Other people's perceptions of you are largely based on the image of yourself that you project to them.

In person, yes. But a vast amount of nonverbal communication simply isn't conveyed over the internet. You can't determine the expression on my face, my body language, my tone of voice, the volume and rhythm of my speech - no, these things are absent.

So you invent them. Your brain constructs its own little personal fiction of who I am and how I'm saying these words. I'm of the personal opinion - unsubstantiated by any expert - that this is an iterative process, and the unconscious mind actually evolves a mental image through a genetic process of editing the image and the verbiage alternately... resulting in the honest belief that different words were used, even when the textual evidence contradicts that hypothesis, and the simple inability of the mind to reconcile the difference. (This dovetails into Hume's Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding quite nicely, but that's a much longer discussion.)

Naturally, you behave in every respect as though the fiction you've created in your mind is reality, because of the whole existential thing. But when that fiction contradicts reality, you must correct it.

Did I mention I've been studying this particular area of human cultural interaction for over two decades? It was my first real "adult" interest in college. No matter; this is where the critical phase comes into it.

See, I like this subject. I think it's a fascinating and exciting topic. If we were talking in person, my facial expression and posture and body language would betray that - I would be speaking rapidly, animatedly, leaning forward and gesturing to emphasise my points. There would be no emotional content toward you whatsoever; my passions would be wholly directed toward, and consumed by, my knowledge of this topic.

But you might not imagine it that way. You might imagine me snorting, looking down my nose, and proclaiming icily that I know all these things which you do not, for you are some sort of strange insect crawling in my vicinity. How dare you bring your filthy ears within range of my clearly superior voice! I could be speaking to someone much more important, someone with much more intellect and capacity to understand.

And I can't control that. If you choose to believe that I'm speaking to you as an inferior instead of as an equal, there is nothing I can do to prevent it... but it's not reality. Your reaction to that mental image isn't a reaction to me; it's a reaction to a pure phantasm, proceeding from your own diseased imagination.

Think about that. It's an important component of understanding what a projected persona really is. Over the internet, people are boiled down to very tiny subsets of their real personalities, and there are a lot of shockingly inappropriate hash-space collisions.

The problem with the cups and balls is the same as the proble with the pass: too many people see it as an end unto itself, rather the means to an end.

Agreed. The performance has been turned into more of a ritual; people do pretty much the same routine all the time, and to be honest it's a good routine. But the cups have turned into something of a packaged effect in their own right. Whereas they used to be a tool to develop a routine, they've become every bit as prearranged as any single-trick DVD with enclosed gimmick.
 
Dec 4, 2007
1,074
2
www.thrallmind.com
Hmm, I recall something called Control which is coming out that has nothing to do with cards.

Remember, Sands, this site is pretty new. Give it some time. If you don't like the place, why stay here? To troll?

I just cant seem to take anyone seriously who complains about something, and continues to use it. Its like being in an abusive relationship.

And I know it has been said before, but if you intend to make posts people will take into consideration and actually read, write with some form of coherent structure.

Lastly, no need to use caps. People wont suddenly like your point more if you yell.

cruise-control-for-cool.jpg


-ThrallMind
 
However, some people here actually work in magic. Such a person here is Steve Simmons. I forgot where he said he works, but some resteraunt or bar in Maryland. D

Actually alot of us here make magic our primary source of income. Getting to know your fellow members will let you in on that.


I have a few videos.


Flourishing is pretty much the future of magic. I have accepted this and now I'm excited to see where it is going to go. It won't be long until flourishing will involve miracles and astound the bahjeesus out of us all.

Katie

Huh, I'm sorry Katie but I have to disagree with this statement completely. Sorry but you still awesome to me.




How would that equate to XCM being the future of magic, especially considering that the most dedicated practitioners of it don't even consider it to be magic in any way, shape, or form?


Thats pretty much dead on. Their there own people.

Whoa guys! Calm down! Don't let this get out of hand. If you agree, that's fine. If you disagree that's fine. No need to bash me though because you have no idea. Last week I made over $650 on magic alone and I'm just a sophomore in high school.


WHAT! $650 Where are you working at? I work full time and it's a full time to make $650 a week and your in school I seriously doubt you make that much on a weekly basis.
 
Sep 1, 2007
479
0
Philadelphia, PA
In person, yes. But a vast amount of nonverbal communication simply isn't conveyed over the internet. You can't determine the expression on my face, my body language, my tone of voice, the volume and rhythm of my speech - no, these things are absent.

So you invent them. Your brain constructs its own little personal fiction of who I am and how I'm saying these words. I'm of the personal opinion - unsubstantiated by any expert - that this is an iterative process, and the unconscious mind actually evolves a mental image through a genetic process of editing the image and the verbiage alternately... resulting in the honest belief that different words were used, even when the textual evidence contradicts that hypothesis, and the simple inability of the mind to reconcile the difference. (This dovetails into Hume's Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding quite nicely, but that's a much longer discussion.)

Naturally, you behave in every respect as though the fiction you've created in your mind is reality, because of the whole existential thing. But when that fiction contradicts reality, you must correct it.

Did I mention I've been studying this particular area of human cultural interaction for over two decades? It was my first real "adult" interest in college. No matter; this is where the critical phase comes into it.

See, I like this subject. I think it's a fascinating and exciting topic. If we were talking in person, my facial expression and posture and body language would betray that - I would be speaking rapidly, animatedly, leaning forward and gesturing to emphasise my points. There would be no emotional content toward you whatsoever; my passions would be wholly directed toward, and consumed by, my knowledge of this topic.

But you might not imagine it that way. You might imagine me snorting, looking down my nose, and proclaiming icily that I know all these things which you do not, for you are some sort of strange insect crawling in my vicinity. How dare you bring your filthy ears within range of my clearly superior voice! I could be speaking to someone much more important, someone with much more intellect and capacity to understand.

And I can't control that. If you choose to believe that I'm speaking to you as an inferior instead of as an equal, there is nothing I can do to prevent it... but it's not reality. Your reaction to that mental image isn't a reaction to me; it's a reaction to a pure phantasm, proceeding from your own diseased imagination.

Think about that. It's an important component of understanding what a projected persona really is. Over the internet, people are boiled down to very tiny subsets of their real personalities, and there are a lot of shockingly inappropriate hash-space collisions.



Agreed. The performance has been turned into more of a ritual; people do pretty much the same routine all the time, and to be honest it's a good routine. But the cups have turned into something of a packaged effect in their own right. Whereas they used to be a tool to develop a routine, they've become every bit as prearranged as any single-trick DVD with enclosed gimmick.

Ok now I feel like some rat in a lab you are sending electric current into to see what the reaction is going to be. I get enough heartburn from work and the everyday stresses of life without the added aggravation on a message board in all honesty.

Lets get back to the magic and enjoying discussions related to that subject.

--Jim

p.s. The post was impressive. The snorting I didn't quite picture but the looking down the nose thing was definitely up there once or twice today.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
I get enough heartburn from work and the everyday stresses of life without the added aggravation on a message board in all honesty.

Nobody makes you argue with me. If it stresses you out, don't do it. Me, I'm two-thirds of the way through a bottle of rum, and you couldn't stress me out if you tried with both hands.

But let's get back to this whole card flourish thing.

Flourishes have always been an integral part of card magic. The Royal Road to Card Magic devotes chapter 3 entirely to them. The only thing I'm saying is going to happen is that the flourishes in magic acts, instead of being these basic and purely utilitarian procedures, are going to begin borrowing more and more from XCM. Meanwhile, the XCM guys will start to figure out "wait a minute... there's no money in this!" and start learning magic.

This is a natural progression. It happens over and over again, in one field after another. A small group of people comes up with something new and different that will change everything; in improv comedy, it was "the Harold". It gains a following, it attracts new practitioners, and for a while it competes with its parent art.

But then the parent art starts to change. It adopts some of the features of this new art, then more, and eventually the parent art contains the entirety of the new field as well. So the new field - the revolution - is now one style, while the parent art is that style and everything else.

Then the revolution dries up and blows away. Not that it's actually gone - it's just that nobody is over there doing just the Harold anymore. The Harold is now just one more tool in the massive collection of tools for improv comedy, and as part of the larger art it has spawned various hybrid forms.

Including, amusingly enough, the Sybil - a Harold performed by one person.

The important thing to recognise in this progression is that the larger art cannot evolve appreciably without spawning the offshoot. The revolution is necessary, even though in the end it is assimilated into the parent art and dies as a specialty. The assimilation itself is also necessary - without that assimilation, the revolutionary movement is forbidden by its rejection of the parent to adopt elements of that parent which would improve it.

I think this same dynamic will happen with XCM and magic. I think XCM grew out of magic to begin with, as a rejection of the need to perform tricks or reveal effects; instead, it proposes that one can simply admire skillful manipulation of the cards for what it is. This is a somewhat radical notion, and the mainline magic community cannot accept it... too different, too strange, and that guy's hair is too long... so it creates an offshoot where it will develop.

Now that it's proven viable, I think the main trunk of magic will begin absorbing it, and once it's been suitably integrated into magic as a whole - the standalone XCM community will disappear. And I think this alteration in how we define magic will help magic to grow and evolve in ways it wouldn't otherwise have done.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
Only 2/3 rds man I'm on my second bottle.

So am I... now. I was two-thirds through at the beginning of that post.

rrrr,...I'm a pirateee!!!

I drink mine with well-steeped Stash Earl Grey tea. I'm like half pirate and half Royal Navy.

Guess that makes me a privateer! Got my letter of marque, and off we go! Weigh anchor!

Oh, as I went one evening out for a night's career; I spied a lovely vessel, and after her I steered - I hoisted her my signals, which she very quickly knew... and when she saw my bunting rise, she immediately hove to...
 

Andrei

Elite Member
Sep 2, 2007
439
24
35
Las Vegas
www.youtube.com
To Sands:

I don't quite understand whether you're annoyed by "too many flourish threads" or "too many people copying and wanting to be like other pros"

In the first case all I can say is there's 2,225 magic threads vs. 308 on the Cardistry forum...

As for people copying and releasing the same overused material...all I can say is that's the way life works. There are leaders and there are followers. There are those who create and those who learn. Generally speaking, the are fewer leaders than followers. It's always been that way and will always remain.

As for XCM/Cardistry + Magic being the future...only time will tell. Regardless...I think it would be a safe bet to keep up the pace and have the best of both worlds in your back pocket. Don't take this offensively; but, I believe you're just complaining because you're so overwhelmed between two sides producing so much material...you feel as though you can't keep up. I think we all feel that way sometimes. So much so in fact, we feel obligated to choose between two halves. In the end, entertainment is entertainment. The more you learn the more you'll show, the better you will entertain.

Take care,
 
Jan 11, 2008
17
0
To Sands:
Don't take this offensively; but, I believe you're just complaining because you're so overwhelmed between two sides producing so much material...you feel as though you can't keep up. I think we all feel that way sometimes. So much so in fact, we feel obligated to choose between two halves. In the end, entertainment is entertainment. The more you learn the more you'll show, the better you will entertain.
Take care,

Don't take this offensively; but, perhaps he can tell the difference between juggling and magic.

Honestly, I don't see the point to the thread either. Juggling is juggling. It you want juggling in your routine, go for it! If you don't want to read about it, or see it, skip it!

But... Juggling is NOT the next step in the evolution of magic.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Andrei

Elite Member
Sep 2, 2007
439
24
35
Las Vegas
www.youtube.com
Don't take this offensively; but, perhaps he can tell the difference between juggling and magic.

Honestly, I don't see the point to the thread either. Juggling is juggling. It you want juggling in your routine, go for it! If you don't want to read about it, or see it, skip it!

But... Juggling is NOT the next step in the evolution of magic.

One thing I can't tell is how any of what you just said made sense in regarding to my post. Speaking of not being able to tell the difference, XCM/Cardistry is nothing like juggling. Do a fan or armspread for someone...follow that up with "Is this juggling?" Tell me the response they give.
 
Jan 11, 2008
17
0
One thing I can't tell is how any of what you just said made sense in regarding to my post. Speaking of not being able to tell the difference, XCM/Cardistry is nothing like juggling. Do a fan or armspread for someone...follow that up with "Is this juggling?" Tell me the response they give.

XCM and Cardistry are types of juggling. Have someone watch contact juggling...follow that up with "Is this juggling?" Tell me the response they give.
 
Sep 1, 2007
61
0
Sorry to sound like a jerk but HAS THIS EVER GOTTEN OUT OF HAND!!! Is Theory 11 just a fancy name for a flourish website!?! I'M TIRED OF SEEING VIDEO AFTER VIDEO OF PEOPLE DOING THE SAME EXACT THING!!! This is entirely my opinion but if you were magic would you be doing flourishes, let alone CARDS!?! NO!!! The only time this sight shines is when they create something new and not just a remake of something else (which in all honesty hasn't been anything). So go ahead and flame me with how much flourishes are good and "blah blah blah I wanna be just like Dan and Dave blah blah blah" Can't you find your own niche? If you like flourishes go for it. I have no problem with it but I hate how it's like, what everybody at Theory 11 does. Everybody just tries to be like everybody else. To be honest I hate cards and I hate coins. They're good utilities and I DO use them but we're MAGICIANS!!! We look SUPERNATURAL!!! Not, "what a slick prankster trickster" but MAGICAL!!! We make things happen that couldn't possibly happen and distort people's imaginations! How can we expand their world if we can't expand beyond the deck of cards!?! If you agree with me get some REAL stuff. Not "Card Trick/Flourishes/Card Card Cardilly Cards" but something like Banachek's PK Touches, Jay Sankey: Supernatural, Luke Jermay material, or even a set of cups and balls with a Michael Ammar DVD. Ditch the card cliche. It took me awhile to realize cards are so overused and I look like every other magician when I use them. Somebody said "Can't you do anything else other than card tricks?" and right there I thought "They're right. It's all cards cards cards and no MAGIC." Luckily I knew some sleight of hand from an old Ammar DVD and blew them away. I need to be different. So nothing against people who truly wanted to become CARDICIANS (which is real if you don't know) when they came here but when good magicians use cards cards cards cards it's so boring, predictable, and shows you have the average talent. Break the mold! Theory 11, if you delete this I can understand but if you're the site you claim to be you'll let us have opinions...


QFT. I think the same way and was about to even write the same thing but decided to save energy. People (And websites that teach "magic") need to get over this card mania..
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
In person, yes. But a vast amount of nonverbal communication simply isn't conveyed over the internet. You can't determine the expression on my face, my body language, my tone of voice, the volume and rhythm of my speech - no, these things are absent.

Very true. You can't hear text.

However, ask any writer and they will tell you the supreme importance of word choice in determining the tone of a statement.

QFT. I think the same way and was about to even write the same thing but decided to save energy. People (And websites that teach "magic") need to get over this card mania..

Has any of this hindered you in any way? It's really not a big deal.

Personally, I practice XCM as it helps me develop my dexterity.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I am a writer, and my word choices are quite carefully and deliberately made.

Then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate your approach. You say this isn't the first time this has happened. Ever consider that you're not the victim here, but are equally at fault?
 
Sep 1, 2007
25
0
Might I add we don't care. Were card flourishers and magicians. Deal with it. This wouldn't have happened to you guys if our media system (Decknique) was taken from our home for flourishes. If it was still on the website we wouldn't submit our videos here. You'll just have to learn to live with it. If you want a change, then why don't you start the change.
 

Andrei

Elite Member
Sep 2, 2007
439
24
35
Las Vegas
www.youtube.com
XCM and Cardistry are types of juggling. Have someone watch contact juggling...follow that up with "Is this juggling?" Tell me the response they give.


The response they give is no that is not juggling because laymen don't associate Cardistry/XCM with juggling/contact juggling. It's the same as if I called magicians "deceivers". However, laymen would not call you that because they don't associate the two when they see it. Care to address anything else I said in my first post or are you going to try to penalize me for grammar errors?
 
Jan 11, 2008
17
0
Care to address anything else I said in my first post or are you going to try to penalize me for grammar errors?

Yes I would like to address something else.

To Sands:

Don't take this offensively; but, I believe you're just complaining because you're so overwhelmed between two sides producing so much material...you feel as though you can't keep up.

This statement has no merit.

It's the same as if I called magicians "deceivers".

A straw man argument.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
Ever consider that you're not the victim here, but are equally at fault?

I never said I was a victim. This is a natural and normal component of communicating over a text-only channel. It is the medium which is at fault, and all parties in the conversation must account for that fault - and compensate for it.

I do this. I select my words carefully, and I say exactly what I intend to say. That's all I can do. My end of the bargain is held up perfectly well.

But since the average internet user and forumgoer is not particularly well-versed in the specific necessities of text-only communication channels, he doesn't do anything. He reads a sentence, mentally invents a person to say it and a manner in which it might be said, and then responds to the person - not the sentence - because he doesn't know how to respond to the pure and simple content of the text. The idea is completely foreign to him. You don't talk to words, you talk to people.

But the person to whom you are responding is not real. It is something you made up. And when you don't like what you've invented in your own head, place the blame where it belongs: on you.

This doesn't happen because people are malicious or out to get me. It happens because they simply don't understand the flaw in the communications channel. They will learn it during their first two years at college, and then - not understanding its application in the Real World - promptly forget most of it.

It's what I call an "un-problem". You can't see the problem until you fix it and realise that things really have suddenly gotten a lot better.

Incidentally, this extensive explanatory process I'm undertaking here is my latest attempt to fix the problem. I'm trying a fourth-wall approach, which currently seems to be working a lot better than my other efforts. I've never stopped trying to fix this - I've just never exactly had much success, either.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
The response they give is no that is not juggling because laymen don't associate Cardistry/XCM with juggling/contact juggling.

You're missing the point. Contact juggling, to the layman, is not juggling. Neither is cardistry/XCM... pay attention now...

Because the layman is unqualified to render an opinion.

Consider other fields. Are intellectual property rights a constitutional question? Is game theory a proper component of an economics education? Should the modern computer programmer learn assembly language?

Without competent knowledge in the fields of law, economics, and computer science respectively, you simply can't answer those questions with any degree of accuracy. Likewise, the question of whether XCM is juggling is something that can only be productively answered by someone properly educated on either juggling or XCM... and preferably both.

I don't think it's juggling, really, but I look in the dictionary and find "juggle" as meaning "to manipulate objects in an artful or artistic manner" which certainly fits. I still think it's a bad definition, but if that's the definition, he's right - it's juggling. And since I wouldn't call myself competent in either juggling or XCM, I'm simply unqualified to render an opinion. So I defer to someone who apparently is qualified.
 
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