Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by C J, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. So in most/all of Daniel Madisons work there is a reference to the devil in some way or another. I was wondering why? Is it for marketing or is it personal?
  2. Probably a bit of both. It is definitely a good marketing tool & has kind of become his calling card.

    As far as I know, it stems from his former card-cheat life and from his use of the skills for "the art of deception", as he calls it.

    He may have talked about it in one of his Q&As and stuff. It may have been this one:

    Or maybe one of the ones on his channel, or maybe one of the the #AskMadison one by E.
  3. Ok, I'll be the one to go ahead and say it. Madison has never been a card cheat. I love the guys magic tricks and showmanship. His ad for the Madison Blanks proves he has a great sense of humor and can laugh at himself. But mark my words, someday he will publicly admit that the biggest art of deception he has ever created is his persona as a card cheat. I have been a high stakes poker player and card mechanic for over half my life and can promise you that no one who is seriously in this field had ever heard of Daniel Madison before he rose to fame in the magic community. Again....great magician, good inventor, and world-class marketer! But he's not a true card mechanic by my definition. And his bottom deal "TheMadison Grip" is a very poorly performed Erdnase Grip that if used in a real game would get you shot!
    Mr_ARPY likes this.
  4. I'm fairly certain he wasn't a big card cheat, just did a backroom games and stuff

    And he was part of cheater's cheat (or whatever it was called) prior to the magic field.

    But yeah, is grip is definitely weird. Some people do prefer it though. I know a guy right here on the forums who uses the Madison Grip. He has been into card cheating and gambling magic for a long time, and has gone through and studied many different grips & techniques before he ended up choosing the Madison Grip. It just fit him better and it looked cleanest to him.

    It's all personal preference.
    Mr_ARPY likes this.
  5. Oh...and for the record....I would never want to compete with Daniel on a card flourishing competition, but I would LOVE to play some high stakes poker with him. Anytime, Anywhere, and for any amount of money!

    (Lot's of echo...) "This is Houston Curtis"... and I will be releasing my own book and video series on card mechanics very soon. In the meantime, you need not look any further than the great Jason England right here at Theory11 to see what a real card man looks like. And keep an eye out for Million Dollar Mechanics.
    Maaz Hasan likes this.
  6. Do you know Ron Connely. He frequents our magic meetup group.
    Houston Curtis likes this.
  7. Sounds good! I'll keep a look out for that book!

    And I totally agree, Madison was (probably) not a big time card cheat, I'm just saying he probably had some experience as one. I remember in an interview with DMC (which I think I linked above), he said something about how he made some money off of it before he got caught and beat up real bad.
    Houston Curtis likes this.
  8. Technically, Madison never said he was a "big" cheat. The story he gives is that he grew up in a bad area, got in with unsavory types, and then taught himself card cheating moves after seeing someone on TV demonstrating them (Steve Forte). He got away with it for a little while but in the first "big" game he got into, he flubbed a palm and earned a trip to the hospital. While recovering he was practicing moves, and someone asked when he started doing magic tricks. He figured that was a safer way to practice deception, which is the part he really prefers anyway, so he became a "magician".

    I'm betting if someone were to take an objective look at Madison's work they'd see the truth of what he's been saying all this time.

    But I'll tell you one thing, regardless of his history, I don't know if there's anyone else in the magic industry that's as good at building a brand and fan loyalty as he is.
  9. Madison is one of those guys who managed to build a larger than life persona and his branding is top notch. I have a feelign what Christopher just said is probably pretty close to the truth.

    That being said, as much as his persona is pompous and self agrandising, when I watch earlier stuff from Madison I feel like he comes across as a really nice guy. I'd be curious to have a beer with him and have him drop the act a bit while I pick his brain.
    Mr_ARPY likes this.

  10. Same
  11. I remember first getting into gambling and I used the Madison grip before I ever bought any of his products. I think it's all down to personal preference, and how you adjust moves to fit you. Reading the Expert At The Card Table for the first time, I noticed how the cards tended to slip upwards, towards my wrist and by adjusting the middle finger it stopped that. However, the grip is ever so slightly different to the Madison Grip. And the execution of my bottoms are different as well.
    I think that even when you read a book, or watch a DVD - basically, whatever resource you're learning from, you wont handle the cards in the exact same way as the teacher. I think it's because of different hand sizes and different muscle structure, but in gambling I honestly don't think it matters. As people who are involved with card manipulation, we're too quick to say it's obvious, but when people are playing cards, they're not burning hands and aren't aware they're being hustled. I've cheated games (only with friends to see if they'd notice. Not a thief.) and thought I executed a move terribly but none of them were any the wiser.
    I think as long as it isn't strike bottoms, using a straddle grip - it's fine, so long as you feel comfortable.
    Mr_ARPY and Maaz Hasan like this.
  12. Hi there. the name sounds familiar, but I can't quite place him. Why do you ask?
  13. Could this ^ be the whole sleight club episode? Is it All a final publicity stunt to announce this huge truth? Think about it.
    Fight club theory.jpg

    I'll admit it. This theory is WAAAY left field. And really far out there, and TBH I don't honestly believe it. It would be horrendous if this whole mess was Daniel's way of admitting to the public this persona is false. Just something interesting to think about.

    Attached Files:

    C J likes this.
  14. The truth is usually much simpler than we make it out to be. My guess is that he quickly found out that running a business on his own was much tougher than he originally thought it would be when he left Ellusionist, and got in over his head. Now he is using the "breakdown" as a way to dodge a customer service nightmare as he regroups. He's a clever guy...and as much as I cringe every time I see him do a bottom deal, I admire his marketing. He'll be back...because he knows how to keep people talking, even when he's sinking in quicksand.
    Mr_ARPY and 010rusty like this.
  15. :eek::eek::eek: You cant say true facts like that on the Internet!!!!!!!
    C J and Houston Curtis like this.
  16. woops! my bad! lol
    010rusty likes this.
  17. It is what i had been trying to make people understand for decades.
    I have never actually played in such games, but with my interest in sleight of hand i should say he is good. But not good enough. I have almost every thing he ever produced and half the things in mechanic and E x M arent possible in real life. I mean like sure, you can do muck shun in a gambling demo for a spectator and get good reactions, but good luck trying it out somewhere there is money.
    He is an amazing creator and an even better marketer, but as you said, he is no card cheat.
    Houston Curtis likes this.
  18. When it comes to grips and theory behind it, madison grip has a nice idea behind it. He doesnt actually tell you to use his grip, he teaches you how to develop your own grip which is much better than learning a specific kind of grip. In my opinion, no one can possibly use the exact same grip as someone else.
    For example, I love Jason England's BD tutorial but I dont use any of the grips he teaches, at least not the way he does. Even though Madison has a rather poor BD but his ideas are superior to most people when it comes to handling the deck.
  19. Interestingly enough, customer service is actually responsive within 48hr now. I’d wager that from his IG posts that the regular stress of taking on a mountainous business drove him to the bottle.

    I’ve read that people (2 redditors with proof) who even mentor under him have no idea where he is or what he is up to. We can deduce that he isn’t dead or very seriously ill (physically or mentally) as McKinnon or Ramsey would have said something about it over Twitter most likely. So with mentions of “the answer wasn’t at the bottom of the bottle, my best friend and enemy”, an extended time period where you’re unreachable except for a slight few, and using neutral words like condition, breakdown, status... Sounds like he is in an addiction mgmt program to me. Just my thoughts after I mulled it over.
    010rusty likes this.
  20. Well Said
    Mr_ARPY and 010rusty like this.

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