Ellusionist?

[MagicShadow9]

Now I'm not trying to sound like an Ellusionist fan boy. I'm trying to point out one of the main things wrong with the magic community today.

Everyday i see people from forums bashing ellusionist. And i've never quite understood why. Is it because their tricks are impractical? Is it cuz the people on the E forums disrespect the art of magic? Is it because Brad Christian is a bad magician? Well i don't think any of these are good reason to dislike Ellusionist.

"Ellusionist tricks suck! They aren't even taught well and the tricks aren't something that i would ever use! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!!!"

Many people think Ellusionist has highly impractical tricks and useless dvd's. However, this is only your opinion. And it does not give you the right to think you are so much better than the Ellusionist people. They may have worked their butts off creating and perfecting their tricks. If a trick is not for you, then don't buy it. If you think it's not something you would use, don't buy it. It's not Ellusionist's fault that a particular trick doesn't fit your style.

"The E community is filled with noobs! They ruin magicians' reputation! They rarely ever practice their tricks!"

This is probably the main reason for Ellusionist bashing. People believe that Ellusionist followers are noobs and never practice. While it may be true that some beginner magicians don't practice their tricks, its not are business to criticize them about it. So some kids are performing magic badly, big deal. Why does that affect you? If they perform badly, they only make themselves look bad, not magicians in general.

"Brad Christian is the worst magician I've ever seen! He spent so much time on magic and he's not even good!"

I will admit that brad christian is not one of the est magicians i've ever seen. But because of him, the magician population have grown severely. Many of us here started off with a Brad Christian dvd (Chrash Course 1, Ninja, How to do Street Magic). Think about it. If you had not bought that dvd, would you have been as interested in magic as you are now? If Brad Christian had not made those dvds that are so easy to learn from as a beginner, many of us would not be here right now.

So what i'm trying to emphasize is that you shouldn't be bashing a certain website, a certain magician, or a certain community because they are different. It is perfectly ok to dislike them. But bashing them is wrong. Come on, we're all magicians. We all love magic. So why must we hate each other? Think about it.

P.S. I hope no one is offended by this. I'm not trying to call out the Ellusionist bashers out there. I'm just trying to fix a major set back in the progression of magic.

 

[emagician]

Hey, I defintely second that. I've been trying to find out forever why people continue to bash E just because they're a different website. Right on!

 

[Zeedub81]

The only thing I don't like about Ellusionist is how they are all, "learn street magic now! Even you can be performing amazing magic tricks within minutes!"
I prefer magic to be a hidden thing, I don't want magic and magicians becoming a common thing.

 

[DannyT]

The kids who bash E are just full of themselves and they think that they're better than everyone there, when in fact their not.
I mean, it's good to be confident in yourself when performing and to know when your a good performer, but it's another thing when you think your better than some people and slam it in their face for it. Kids are obnoxious.

It's just a stereotypical attitude when they see a young kid perform a trick from E to the camera on youtube badly. "This kid sucks, so everyone at E must suck at magic."

People can be so misguided.

 

[copperfield 14]

On the other hand, Ellusionist made Celebracadabra and they totally exposed us.

Not really. When you think about only people that are really interested in magic will visit these websites. Imagine you saw a commercial about yo-yo's. You don't really care about yo-yo's ad you think there werid. In the end of the commercial it will give you a website to buy yo-yo's. Since you don't care about yo-yo's you wouldn't want to see the website. Same thing goes with magic. For the people that don't care they really don't care about a website, about products or anything. Even if they checked out the website they would see a bunch of products that the only way to learn the secret is to pay, and people don't really like spending money.

 

[CaseyC]

Not really. When you think about only people that are really interested in magic will visit these websites. Imagine you saw a commercial about yo-yo's. You don't really care about yo-yo's ad you think there werid. In the end of the commercial it will give you a website to buy yo-yo's. Since you don't care about yo-yo's you wouldn't want to see the website. Same thing goes with magic. For the people that don't care they really don't care about a website, about products or anything. Even if they checked out the website they would see a bunch of products that the only way to learn the secret is to pay, and people don't really like spending money.

VERY true...well said

 

[Morgan B]

Everyday i see people from forums bashing ellusionist. And i've never quite understood why. Is it because their tricks are impractical? Is it cuz the people on the E forums disrespect the art of magic? Is it because Brad Christian is a bad magician? Well i don't think any of these are good reason to dislike Ellusionist.

This is a GREAT reason to not like ellusionist - if what you say is true - if the tricks are impractical - what good are they? If the E forums disrespect the art of magic? The forums have bad mods. If Brad is a poor quality magician, and he is teaching the stuff - then it's the blind leading the blind. I am not a ellusionist "hater" - but the reasons you give seem legit.

Many people think Ellusionist has highly impractical tricks and useless dvd's. However, this is only your opinion. And it does not give you the right to think you are so much better than the Ellusionist people. They may have worked their butts off creating and perfecting their tricks. If a trick is not for you, then don't buy it. If you think it's not something you would use, don't buy it. It's not Ellusionist's fault that a particular trick doesn't fit your style.

Again - you contradict yourself - if the tricks are impractical and useless - and that is an opinion based off use by those saying this - then doesn't it seem fair to say that the creators aren't "working their butts off to perfect their tricks" - and that the advice you give to "not buy it" seems obvious?

The main reason for Ellusionist bashing. People believe that Ellusionist followers are noobs and never practice. While it may be true that some beginner magicians don't practice their tricks, its not are business to criticize them about it. So some kids are performing magic badly, big deal. Why does that affect you? If they perform badly, they only make themselves look bad, not magicians in general.

Umm, it is my business - because it creates exposure - and bad magic impacts magic much larger than other bad forms of art, like music - because the volume people see those things makes up for the variation - but how often do people see magic? Most time - you are creating the mold - so much larger a responsibility.

I will admit that brad christian is not one of the best magicians i've ever seen.

Good.

But because of him, the magician population have grown severely. Many of us here started off with a Brad Christian dvd (Chrash Course 1, Ninja, How to do Street Magic). Think about it. If you had not bought that dvd, would you have been as interested in magic as you are now? If Brad Christian had not made those dvds that are so easy to learn from as a beginner, many of us would not be here right now.

Where would you be? Better off - I have had to "re-educate" the students from the Christian school of sucking - so, this I have an opinion on. I didn't learn from Brad - actually, most magicians I meet that do learn from these beginner tapes THANK god that they found another path to learn from...as they saw how they were being directed...into the land of mis-education and second hand info.

So what i'm trying to emphasize is that you shouldn't be bashing a certain website, a certain magician, or a certain community because they are different. It is perfectly ok to dislike them. But bashing them is wrong. Come on, we're all magicians. We all love magic. So why must we hate each other? Think about it.

Hmm...okay, thought about it - and here is what I think - I don't have to like you just because we do the same hobby/profession. Actually, Tommy Wonder has a great essay about how the "brotherhood" is a really bad concept - but you wouldn't get that info from an Ellusionist DVD. Bashing someone may be wrong, but the only form of policing we have in magic is peer pressure and self governing...so, if your goal is:

I'm just trying to fix a major setback in the progression of magic.

Then how is defending those that help create mis-education and poor work ethic in magic a step in the right direction? Please inform me how "let everyone do what they want" with no social pressure - lead to the path of progressive magic?

Now RUN to the ellusionist forums and cry to your brethren - as your post has been challenged - and realize that making a plea for a brotherhood is only valid if we have the same goals - to be great at magic - if this is your goal...then we can talk - if not, then why would I want to fly with a turkey, when I want to soar like an eagle?

 

[MagicShadow9]

This is a GREAT reason to not like ellusionist - if what you say is true - if the tricks are impractical - what good are they? If the E forums disrespect the art of magic? The forums have bad mods. If Brad is a poor quality magician, and he is teaching the stuff - then it's the blind leading the blind. I am not a ellusionist "hater" - but the reasons you give seem legit.




Again - you contradict yourself - if the tricks are impractical and useless - and that is an opinion based off use by those saying this - then doesn't it seem fair to say that the creators aren't "working their butts off to perfect their tricks" - and that the advice you give to "not buy it" seems obvious?



Umm, it is my business - because it creates exposure - and bad magic impacts magic much larger than other bad forms of art, like music - because the volume people see those things makes up for the variation - but how often do people see magic? Most time - you are creating the mold - so much larger a responsibility.



Good.




Where would you be? Better off - I have had to "re-educate" the students from the Christian school of sucking - so, this I have an opinion on. I didn't learn from Brad - actually, most magicians I meet that do learn from these beginner tapes THANK god that they found another path to learn from...as they saw how they were being directed...into the land of mis-education and second hand info.




Hmm...okay, thought about it - and here is what I think - I don't have to like you just because we do the same hobby/profession. Actually, Tommy Wonder has a great essay about how the "brotherhood" is a really bad concept - but you wouldn't get that info from an Ellusionist DVD. Bashing someone may be wrong, but the only form of policing we have in magic is peer pressure and self governing...so, if your goal is:



Then how is defending those that help create mis-education and poor work ethic in magic a step in the right direction? Please inform me how "let everyone do what they want" with no social pressure - lead to the path of progressive magic?

Now RUN to the ellusionist forums and cry to your brethren - as your post has been challenged - and realize that making a plea for a brotherhood is only valid if we have the same goals - to be great at magic - if this is your goal...then we can talk - if not, then why would I want to fly with a turkey, when I want to soar like an eagle?

Ok, you prove some good points. Maybe my arguments weren't all that strong. I'm just saying that because we all have the same interest, we should help each other, not bash each other. If you want to be independent, that's fine with me. And i'm not "defending" ellusionist people. I'm just saying that instead of hating on them, we should try to help them.

 

[GusEds]

This is a GREAT reason to not like ellusionist - if what you say is true - if the tricks are impractical - what good are they? If the E forums disrespect the art of magic? The forums have bad mods. If Brad is a poor quality magician, and he is teaching the stuff - then it's the blind leading the blind. I am not a ellusionist "hater" - but the reasons you give seem legit.

The tricks they sell over at E are not impractical. That was the claim of one angry customer who had too many online friends. Such things and rumour do not take long to escalate to the point of blind following.

I have purchased Factory Sealed, Fraud and Torn form E. Impractical?
Extreme Burn, Trick Sharpies, Stigmata, Indecent - Since when?

I see you might be talking about effects such as the Axis change, or Mindbender. These, among others, are effects created by the amateur crowd that flocks over at Ellusionist. Now E seem to have a from the Crowd, to the crowd policy. Which is great - it stimulates creativity and thoughtfullness. IS it a problem? No. You bought it. Deal with it. (not you personally)

Again - you contradict yourself - if the tricks are impractical and useless - and that is an opinion based off use by those saying this - then doesn't it seem fair to say that the creators aren't "working their butts off to perfect their tricks" - and that the advice you give to "not buy it" seems obvious?

I believe MagicShadow9 isn't contradicting himself. He is telling us not to fall to the hype and follow blindly along a crowd of haters. But you'll have to re-itterate that point, too many hyphens!

Umm, it is my business - because it creates exposure - and bad magic impacts magic much larger than other bad forms of art, like music - because the volume people see those things makes up for the variation - but how often do people see magic? Most time - you are creating the mold - so much larger a responsibility.

If exposure is what you're after, running at E with pitchforks and fire isn't going to help. Again - I can assure you many of the frequent 'N00bs' from E are here to, under different pretences. I agree about volume making up for variation however, and by simply looking at somehting on youtube, you are almost certainly directed at E...Touché.

Where would you be? Better off - I have had to "re-educate" the students from the Christian school of sucking - so, this I have an opinion on. I didn't learn from Brad - actually, most magicians I meet that do learn from these beginner tapes THANK god that they found another path to learn from...as they saw how they were being directed...into the land of mis-education and second hand info.

Could you justify this? Becuase I find it is quite disrespectful to a magician who has obviously worked hard and long for the magic community - and most of these 'Brad' Bashers have no real evidence or opinion - they just follow the masses, and i'd hate to see you go for the masses Morgician.

Hmm...okay, thought about it - and here is what I think - I don't have to like you just because we do the same hobby/profession. Actually, Tommy Wonder has a great essay about how the "brotherhood" is a really bad concept - but you wouldn't get that info from an Ellusionist DVD. Bashing someone may be wrong, but the only form of policing we have in magic is peer pressure and self governing...so, if your goal is:

Well, I am simply going to point out that most of the original t11 crew were working at E with almost the exact same 'goals' they have here. Of course, there is variation, but in modern times, it's all about the money at the end of the day.

Before there was T11, Ellusionist was the big brotherhood for furthering the art of magic. If you look back, what is stopping Theory11 from beocming the same thing? Have you seen the amount of 1on1's released by the amount of artists? I believe it's already bigger than the E crew.

Then how is defending those that help create mis-education and poor work ethic in magic a step in the right direction? Please inform me how "let everyone do what they want" with no social pressure - lead to the path of progressive magic?

I like the use of the words 'mis-education' and 'poor work ethic'. Again, can you back it up? The Ninja dvd's and the Crash Courses are great help to an upcoming magician. It's true that Ellusionist sells magic as if it were any other movie or music video, but they have to make a living, and not everyone likes the 'Quality before Quantity' policy we have here for the time being.

Now RUN to the ellusionist forums and cry to your brethren - as your post has been challenged - and realize that making a plea for a brotherhood is only valid if we have the same goals - to be great at magic - if this is your goal...then we can talk - if not, then why would I want to fly with a turkey, when I want to soar like an eagle?

I agree with you, I am just challenging your post because, well, it's fun. Food for thought.

Gustav

 

[KevinOwens]

This is a GREAT reason to not like ellusionist - if what you say is true - if the tricks are impractical - what good are they? If the E forums disrespect the art of magic? The forums have bad mods. If Brad is a poor quality magician, and he is teaching the stuff - then it's the blind leading the blind. I am not a ellusionist "hater" - but the reasons you give seem legit.




Again - you contradict yourself - if the tricks are impractical and useless - and that is an opinion based off use by those saying this - then doesn't it seem fair to say that the creators aren't "working their butts off to perfect their tricks" - and that the advice you give to "not buy it" seems obvious?



Umm, it is my business - because it creates exposure - and bad magic impacts magic much larger than other bad forms of art, like music - because the volume people see those things makes up for the variation - but how often do people see magic? Most time - you are creating the mold - so much larger a responsibility.



Good.




Where would you be? Better off - I have had to "re-educate" the students from the Christian school of sucking - so, this I have an opinion on. I didn't learn from Brad - actually, most magicians I meet that do learn from these beginner tapes THANK god that they found another path to learn from...as they saw how they were being directed...into the land of mis-education and second hand info.




Hmm...okay, thought about it - and here is what I think - I don't have to like you just because we do the same hobby/profession. Actually, Tommy Wonder has a great essay about how the "brotherhood" is a really bad concept - but you wouldn't get that info from an Ellusionist DVD. Bashing someone may be wrong, but the only form of policing we have in magic is peer pressure and self governing...so, if your goal is:



Then how is defending those that help create mis-education and poor work ethic in magic a step in the right direction? Please inform me how "let everyone do what they want" with no social pressure - lead to the path of progressive magic?

Now RUN to the ellusionist forums and cry to your brethren - as your post has been challenged - and realize that making a plea for a brotherhood is only valid if we have the same goals - to be great at magic - if this is your goal...then we can talk - if not, then why would I want to fly with a turkey, when I want to soar like an eagle?

I think the whole point he's trying to make here is this.

People bash E up and down out of their ignorance. Well the truth is, theory11 is no better. People bashing E on the T11 forums are essentially being hypocrites.

They say the tricks are impractical, when E has one of the most diverse collection of different magic DVDs and books. They have the classic Card College, to the modern street effects being put out by today's magicians. This is hypocrisy because they can't say T11 is any better. Theory11 only consists of a few modern street effects. Don't get me wrong, I love what Theory11 is doing and I love their material. But you can't insult Ellusionist for not being as good as T11.

Also, with the forums, people only feel that they have been disrespected because they are the people who go in there with two weeks of experience, maybe watched one DVD, and claim to know everything. If you spend some time there, you'll find that there is no disrespect whatsoever and the mods and other forum members have only the highest respect for magic and its art.

In my opinion E and Brad Christian have been the most important step in mainstreaming magic. Whether or not you think magic should be mainstreamed or not is up to you. But in all seriousness, without Ellusionist, Theory11 may have never existed. JB and Wayne both came from E.

Ellusionist, Theory11, I love you both. Why can't people like both? By bashing either is essentially fighting other people's battles. Near my house there is a Walgreens and a CVS right next to each other. They're in competition just like E and T11. I still go to both. it just depends on what I'm in the mood for. But I don't go into Walgreens complaining about how CVS doesn't have automatic doors or how they don't sell Studs. It all depends on what you're looking for.

peace

-Kevin

 

[TheoryGV]

jb use to work for them

 

[Ineski]

Great post Morgician.

Not really. When you think about only people that are really interested in magic will visit these websites. Imagine you saw a commercial about yo-yo's. You don't really care about yo-yo's ad you think there werid. In the end of the commercial it will give you a website to buy yo-yo's. Since you don't care about yo-yo's you wouldn't want to see the website. Same thing goes with magic. For the people that don't care they really don't care about a website, about products or anything. Even if they checked out the website they would see a bunch of products that the only way to learn the secret is to pay, and people don't really like spending money.

Not the same thing at all. There's not too much mystery around yo-yos. Magic is something people don't understand and that's the reason why it is interesting. One of the reasons magicians are respected is that they know how to do something that nobody else knows. Nobody even knows how such things could be learned! Damn magicians are cool!

It is NOT cool at all if people had the idea that magicians learn their tricks from the internet and "you can learn magic in less than 24 hours, buy now!" If someone asks you where did you learn all your stuff what do you reply? "There's this website where I can download tricks" or "magicians never reveal their secrets". Now you're thinking that you wouldn't have to tell about the site even if you used it, right? But what if people all ready know about it? What if people already think they know how to become a magician? Would "did you learn that from the internet?" be a reaction you want to get?

Magic is not something that is meant to be sold to masses. It should be performed to masses.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

Hey everyone. As long as this thread stays peaceful, I'll keep it open. However, I really dislike E threads as to the other moderators here.

Anyway, its funny when I see people criticize E on here. I talk to magicians that don't go on any magic forum and they criticize Theory 11 for the exact same reasons many people here criticize E. There are just as many "noobs" (I hate that word.) on here as there are on E.

People criticize E for making magic more available to the public. Yes it has. As previously stated though, chances are you wouldn't had been in magic if you didn't hear of E. (This is not the same with everyone. I'm just saying from what I have read, I see that MOST people here got started in magic from E.) Many people think this kind of exposure will ruin their magic. It won't.... A little while ago, I was talking on the phone with a magician and was explaining about how I disliked the fact that Guardians were going to be sold in stores. I was pretty against it. Then he told me how Black Tigers have been sold in stores for a long time. (I never knew this and have not seen them. They are available though in some places.) People all said the same things about Celebracadabra. PEOPLE WHOM ARE INTERESTED IN THE ART WILL BUY THE DVD'S! Most people may see a trailer for a trick like Factory Sealed and think to themselves "That's awesome, but am I really gonna drop that kind of money?" Also, those whom buy a few DVD's and give up easily will just quit magic.

E's public advertising will not affect your magic in any way.

People who criticize E's forums just have different opinions. Obviously their forums are pretty different they are as far as what content many get deleted, how many boards they have, etc. However, it is THEIR STYLE. Some people like E's forums better than Theory 11's. Its a matter of which style you like better.

Personally, I'm tired of the whole fanboy business in magic. Its stupid... (I know some people may disagree with me on that. Some people love the whole idea of fanboyism. I recently learned about a magician that loves the idea of it who is with either T11 or E. (Not saying. ) Surprised me a bit.)

Well, that's my two cents. Don't criticize me for my post being disorganized or having grammar mistakes. This was a long time and just typed my thoughts as I thought of them. So this post is probably all over the place. Its also long so I'm not gonna proofread it. Enjoy.

-Doug

 

[Ineski]

Anyway, its funny when I see people criticize E on here. I talk to magicians that don't go on any magic forum and they criticize Theory 11 for the exact same reasons many people here criticize E. There are just as many "noobs" (I hate that word.) on here as there are on E.

Who said T11 is any better? Well it is a little bit. Some of the here are actually respected magicians who have written good books about magic ( book: set or collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank sheets, made of paper, parchment, or other material, usually fastened together to hinge at one side.)

E's public advertising will not affect your magic in any way.

Read my previous post.

 

[4757joshua2]

"Ellusionist tricks suck! They aren't even taught well and the tricks aren't something that i would ever use! I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!!!"

If you wouldn't use it why did you buy it? They are taught very well.


"The E community is filled with noobs! They ruin magicians' reputation! They rarely ever practice their tricks!"

Bull cookies. I'm not even going to address this.

"Brad Christian is the worst magician I've ever seen! He spent so much time on magic and he's not even good!"

Just because Brad isn't a freaking god of magic like Dai Vernon, and doesn't crank out a billion great tricks a year, does not make him suck. Not everyone can be that great. One thing is for sure though: he is a sight better than 99.9999999% of the people who say he sucks.

My thoughts in green.

The same goes for t11 and most of the other big magic retailers.

 

[Morgan B]

Hey guys - before I get an onslaught of - SHUT UP MORGICIAN - ELLUSIONIST ROCKS - realize that I was only getting Shadowmagic's to rephrase his logic, I agree that there is no need to bash a site...really, Ellusionist does it's thing and it doesn't effect me one way or another. As, the things he stated were true, I just was unclear of his goals - and I will PM Gustov about his request on mis-education...and incluse a TONNE of hyphens

So, I wanted the original poster to have a better grasp on his argument and instead, I got a punchline to bad joke.

How many magicians does it take to make a post to explain one subject - 4!

For those that know - no explanation is necessary, for those that do not...educate yourself, haha.

Later

 

[4757joshua2]

Hey guys - before I get an onslaught of - SHUT UP MORGICIAN - ELLUSIONIST ROCKS - realize that I was only getting Shadowmagic's to rephrase his logic, I agree that there is no need to bash a site...really, Ellusionist does it's thing and it doesn't effect me one way or another. As, the things he stated were true, I just was unclear of his goals - and I will PM Gustov about his request on mis-education...and incluse a TONNE of hyphens

So, I wanted the original poster to have a better grasp on his argument and instead, I got a punchline to bad joke.

How many magicians does it take to make a post to explain one subject - 4!

For those that know - no explanation is necessary, for those that do not...educate yourself, haha.

Later

More like 200 sometimes.

 

[joshrobarts]

two words on Ellusionist..












DANIEL GARCIA
'




*bows, drops microphone, walks off stage*

 

[CaseyC]

two words on Ellusionist..












DANIEL GARCIA
'




*bows, drops microphone, walks of stage*

that pretty much sums it up....

 

[Sirtaco]

But because of him, the magician population have grown severely. Many of us here started off with a Brad Christian dvd (Chrash Course 1, Ninja, How to do Street Magic). Think about it. If you had not bought that dvd, would you have been as interested in magic as you are now? If Brad Christian had not made those dvds that are so easy to learn from as a beginner, many of us would not be here right now.

Everyone is aloud to have an opinion, but I really don’t think this opinion is true, I think David Blaine is responsible for the magicians’ growth. I’ve been into magic about 7 years before Blaine hit the scene, but when he did it got me more interested then ever. He used tricks that I all ready knew but performed them in a different environment. Believe me there is a lot better material to learn from then Crash Course 1, Ninja, How to do Street Magic because a lot of the material in those DVDs have been published for years now. I’ve purchase stuff from Ellusionist the things that fit my own personal style. I’ve found myself hanging around at Theory11 more no a days because of the material they offer here will fit my style better. As for Brad Christian he is a good magician but now a days I think he is a better salesman then a magician.