But you are being paid to work, which is exactly my point. Whether or not you do close up magic is irrelevant. People aren't going to try and show up a good magician that is being paid as an entertainer. You'll find random spectators who are seeing it for free to be a lot less civil sometimes. Like I said previously, your skill level surpasses mine, that was never in question. You naming off all these accomplishments you have when you were a kid doesn't really do much. There are no magic clubs around me, I'm in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure others are in a similar situation. And the ribbon thing is not a fact. I have entered plenty of things where I didn't get a ribbon because I lost, that's skewed perspective that has no basis. You are pretty much insulting every young magician when you are automatically assuming that everything was handed to them or that they are performing wrong. Sharing years of hard work? You are telling the guy that he is performing badly without all the facts, what experience went into that. This sounds like you see this only as a job and you have no respect for anyone who doesn't do it the same way. I don't treat magic like a job. It's something I enjoy doing as a way to entertain others. Like I said, who you are is rather meaningless to me, it really doesn't impress me. You could be a member of the royal family or a movie star and I really wouldn't care. Your actions are what I'm looking at and so far they are just insulting the younger generation of magicians. I have to agree with lbimania though, we have hijacked the post and we should stop this arguing as neither of us are going to concede.
Handling spoilers?
- Thread starter Luke B.(6)
- Start date
I think you handled it fine, man. Some people just have to show off. Sometimes they slip by our radars, there's not much we can do about it.
Yes people still try to catch up the paid worker. Happens more than you would think. Happens to the bar workers happens to the guys working fairs and festivals. Doesn't matter if he is a new guy or a season pro. Some people still try. Know why I know this? I have been doing it for 20 years. I have seen most everything. It's worse now with youtube and all of the exposure videos out there.
I grew up in the middle of nowhere Ohio and we had an IBM ring. have you looked?
I do not treat magic as a job it it was just a job I wouldn't still be doing it after 20 years. I have respect for those who are willing to listen and learn and who gives a full report on what happened. Also it wasn't I who said he sucked. Know why what I have done should matter to you? Because who do you want to listen to someone who has never done anything, someone who is just starting or someone who pays the bills with his art and loves the art so much he works hard to save it from the crap that is out there and took someone who he never met from a guy doing stuff for random people to someone working doing magic. You should know what someone does before you tell them to do what they already do.
Not every younger magician, but a majority young persons and that is a matter of fact in almost every public school out there. Know where I base it on? Seeing the kids in the area getting trophies just for playing in the soccer league. Kids in the paper getting a ribbon just for doing the social studies fair. It is a real thing. Just takes some time to look it up.
But there are thousands of private school students and homeschoolers and you're completely ignoring that. Yeah, I agree that the public school system is probably one of the dumbest things around, but don't act like we all passed because they couldn't fail us. A lot of people still work hard to accomplish things. Yeah, exposure is a big issue, but I also got started into magic thanks to some magicians on YouTube. Not everything on it is bad. Encyclopedia of Magic is a great site that regularly posts YouTube videos, but the show mainly free domain tricks unless you are a paying subscriber. Yes, I have looked for Magician's Clubs. I'm one of the few magicians in my area actually. We have no physical magic store or clubs here. Yes, knowing what you do should matter to me, but only if you were teaching me, but you're not. I have went and read your other posts, most of what you do in them is complain about the younger generation ruining everything. You act like you take people under your wing and turn them into magic proteges, but I'm almost sure that that is less out of the goodness of your heart and more out of the fact you get paid. I assume you're what, forty, fifty? I respect you as a person and a magician, but there are better ways to teach then constantly complaining about the good old days before internet and cars. When you had to travel by horse back and could hunt saber tooth tigers without getting arrested for want and waste.
well you know what they say about assuming and what it does to you. I do not charge for teaching magic. I give freely of my time new magicians no matter their age. It is not just younger magicians who are stepping all over magic. There are some older guys and some new magicians who do it as well. They see magic as a way to get famous or to make money from the tinernet. I have traded PMs with more than a few new magicians on here. I'm helping one now with everything from how to make sure all of his printed items match and follow a same feel and to make sure that they all fit with his website and image. You know stuff they do not teach on youtube or on DVDs. Things learned from books and from people who have done it before. I have freely shared with him things I have only shown to one or two other magicians.
I started magic at the start of the internet. Yes we had the internet back in 1990's I was on compuserve in the seventh grade so like c.1990. I'm 35 not fifty. I got lucky and met a magician in the nightclub my parents ran when I was 15. Only years later did I found out he was one of those guys who went out west to study under Vernon when I saw the picture on his mantle. He told me never charge to teach someone something that you love. I have never and will never charge to teach someone magic.
did you check both the IBM website and SAM website? They have rings and assemblies all over the world. the TVP will get you in touch with other magicians.
There is one thing you can and should do if you are being paid to perform and somebody tries to catch you up... Shrug it off and ignore them.. Usually they will realize you don't care and will most likely go away. Specially because you are only going to be performing for that singular person for maybe 5 min total.
Now if you are at School and somebody keeps trying to catch you up. Then you have to realize that you don't HAVE to perform for them. In fact if the guy keeps acting like a jerk, you can simply pack up the show and leave.
Now if you are at School and somebody keeps trying to catch you up. Then you have to realize that you don't HAVE to perform for them. In fact if the guy keeps acting like a jerk, you can simply pack up the show and leave.
I apologize for assuming you did, it's just that you complain about the "younger generation" expecting to get everything for free so often. It's great that you are teaching someone to be a professional magician, but not all of us want to be professionals. I'm perfectly content sticking to impromptu and street magic, because performing well for free to someone who really enjoys it is far more satisfying to me than being paid. And I do read books by magicians, I actually need to pick up some more as I have read all I have. I am also fully aware there was internet back in the nineties, I was there, young, but there. And YouTube is great for people like me if you know what you are doing. My parents split back when I was around fourteen and my father pretty much left us to our own devices. Left my mother in debt without a job in a house we couldn't afford and then kicked us out of that house when he decided he wanted to sell it. We were scraping by, eating one or two meals a day mainly consisting of beans or rice. My father decided he wanted me to go to school my last two years of high school and enrolled me in a local private school. My younger siblings were sponsored by an unknown person because of our financial situation. My mom got work as a cafeteria worker and things got better. Moral of the story though, I couldn't afford to go out and by DVD's or gimmicks for a long time. I had to use hand me down cards and make what ever gimmick I wanted. Going into magic with out knowing a single force or sleight is really hard but I was able to learn a few things here and there from videos. It's not a despicable evil, just the parts were people are exposing stuff. Even then the only people who watch those are ones who are truly interested in magic.
Never said you had to be a pro. Some of the best magicians I have ever met were doctors or plumber. The best cups and balls worker I have ever met was a farm vet who worked mainly on horses. I do not do magic for money because that is what satifies me I do it because i'm damn good at it I love what I do and it lets me not work a nine to five job. Also you do not have to use youtube to get started in magic. They have magic books at the library. You can even get libraries to send books to other libraries. The moral of that story is you don't have to use the exposure on youtube
I think we can drop the ribbon thing. It's really not relevant and it's not going to go anywhere.
There's been a lot said in this thread while I was off doing other things. It'll be difficult to respond to everything clearly.
First off - Respect. If I didn't respect the guy I wouldn't bother giving advice. I assume he's intelligent and self-aware enough to read what I say and assess whether it's of any value to him. I have good evidence that he is.
Now, let's look at some of the other things said.
I do assume that the problem is related to how he performed because almost all of our problems are related to how we perform. It's not the tricks we do - the very simplest of tricks can be truly amazing and life changing. So why do we get troublesome spectators? Because we make them. We challenge them, we bore them, we treat them like idiots. It's an unfortunate truth. Very few magicians are both good performers and actually treat their audiences like real human beings. This is where I am going to start looking for problems, because by the numbers it's the most likely source.
Yes, the person in question seems to be wanting to seem smarter than the performer. But why? No one does anything for no reason. It was better for the guy to try to show up the performer than just to enjoy the show. Examine the performance and figure out why and it won't happen again.
The reason I am a good performer now is because people respected me enough to tell me when I sucked or did stupid stuff. If everyone told me I was awesome from the very beginning, held my hand and coddled me, I'd still suck. But you know what? You're not toddlers. I'm not going to coddle you. If you want to get better, you need to hear people telling it like it is.
"Fancy show" - A ludicrous attempted argument. Describe what's fancy about my show. Go ahead. I'll wait.
No, I lied, I'm not going to wait. But you go ahead and see if you can tell me anything about my show. I'll give you a hint - I actually described almost my entire show in a thread on another forum.
I don't see performance as a job because performance is not how I make my living. I earn my paycheck by working for one of the largest magic companies in the world. A job I got solely because of how I post on forums, I might add. I perform as a side income. I enjoy doing it, and I am selective about when and where I do my shows. Does that mean I only perform during my shows? No. I perform when I feel the time is right. Usually when my performances will have a positive impact on my subjects, or when I am in the right situation to really create an amazing memory.
You performed for a poor family? Good for you. 90% of my performance are for poor people - those are my friends. I may not be out there every single day accosting strangers at the mall, but to assume I never do anything but formal shows is blatantly hypocritical. Even my formal shows are priced so that almost anyone can go, usually under $10 a ticket.
Here's the real deal. I never get heckled. I never get people trying to guess my methods. I never get bad spectators. People always enjoy my performances because I make sure I only perform in situations where people will enjoy it. This is not a "snobby" attitude - it's about reading the situation and knowing when it's best to perform, and when it's best to say, "Hey, maybe next time. Right now isn't the right time I think."
Also - Like Krab, I never charge to teach people what I know. I may not share all my secrets but I am happy to help people along. I give advice constantly on forums, here in Fresno, Facebook, etc. I manage a circus troupe and teach people the various skills I know in that area - for free even though they may end up being my direct competitors.
I believe in a collaborative artist community. The only way we can bring the arts we love forward is by honestly sharing and critiquing each other. We have to be able to tell each other when something is crap and we have to be able to look at our own performances and say, "Ok, you're right, this isn't good enough."
There's been a lot said in this thread while I was off doing other things. It'll be difficult to respond to everything clearly.
First off - Respect. If I didn't respect the guy I wouldn't bother giving advice. I assume he's intelligent and self-aware enough to read what I say and assess whether it's of any value to him. I have good evidence that he is.
Now, let's look at some of the other things said.
I do assume that the problem is related to how he performed because almost all of our problems are related to how we perform. It's not the tricks we do - the very simplest of tricks can be truly amazing and life changing. So why do we get troublesome spectators? Because we make them. We challenge them, we bore them, we treat them like idiots. It's an unfortunate truth. Very few magicians are both good performers and actually treat their audiences like real human beings. This is where I am going to start looking for problems, because by the numbers it's the most likely source.
Yes, the person in question seems to be wanting to seem smarter than the performer. But why? No one does anything for no reason. It was better for the guy to try to show up the performer than just to enjoy the show. Examine the performance and figure out why and it won't happen again.
The reason I am a good performer now is because people respected me enough to tell me when I sucked or did stupid stuff. If everyone told me I was awesome from the very beginning, held my hand and coddled me, I'd still suck. But you know what? You're not toddlers. I'm not going to coddle you. If you want to get better, you need to hear people telling it like it is.
"Fancy show" - A ludicrous attempted argument. Describe what's fancy about my show. Go ahead. I'll wait.
No, I lied, I'm not going to wait. But you go ahead and see if you can tell me anything about my show. I'll give you a hint - I actually described almost my entire show in a thread on another forum.
I don't see performance as a job because performance is not how I make my living. I earn my paycheck by working for one of the largest magic companies in the world. A job I got solely because of how I post on forums, I might add. I perform as a side income. I enjoy doing it, and I am selective about when and where I do my shows. Does that mean I only perform during my shows? No. I perform when I feel the time is right. Usually when my performances will have a positive impact on my subjects, or when I am in the right situation to really create an amazing memory.
You performed for a poor family? Good for you. 90% of my performance are for poor people - those are my friends. I may not be out there every single day accosting strangers at the mall, but to assume I never do anything but formal shows is blatantly hypocritical. Even my formal shows are priced so that almost anyone can go, usually under $10 a ticket.
Here's the real deal. I never get heckled. I never get people trying to guess my methods. I never get bad spectators. People always enjoy my performances because I make sure I only perform in situations where people will enjoy it. This is not a "snobby" attitude - it's about reading the situation and knowing when it's best to perform, and when it's best to say, "Hey, maybe next time. Right now isn't the right time I think."
Also - Like Krab, I never charge to teach people what I know. I may not share all my secrets but I am happy to help people along. I give advice constantly on forums, here in Fresno, Facebook, etc. I manage a circus troupe and teach people the various skills I know in that area - for free even though they may end up being my direct competitors.
I believe in a collaborative artist community. The only way we can bring the arts we love forward is by honestly sharing and critiquing each other. We have to be able to tell each other when something is crap and we have to be able to look at our own performances and say, "Ok, you're right, this isn't good enough."
Arguments aside. None of you have been particularly helpful. Yes I'm sure that a more experienced magician can spot a trouble maker at first glance or get him on the magicians side with your patter, but blaming the magician for just not being good enough isn't helpful. People Make mistakes. That's how you improve. I've learned way more from my failed performances than my successful ones. Don't just say "this happeed because you're not good enough" say "this happened because you're not good enough and here's how you get better. . . "
As for myself, I find that most people will wait until you finish and then say "I know how you did that" and then start to explain. I cut them off with "no way! Me too!". Simply by getting a laugh from the audience they turn their attention back to you and (hopefully) ignores the heckler.
As for myself, I find that most people will wait until you finish and then say "I know how you did that" and then start to explain. I cut them off with "no way! Me too!". Simply by getting a laugh from the audience they turn their attention back to you and (hopefully) ignores the heckler.
Yikes! There are a lot of sparks flying on this thread!
In my experience, the best way to learn how to handle hecklers is...well...experience. I'm not calling you inexperienced...I'm just saying that experience is what worked for me. You just have to get out there and perform, take your lumps, and learn what you can. That's how you learn to spot/shut down hecklers, read crowds, etc. Lots of magicians have lots to say on the subject, and I've barely read any of it. When I was younger and less experienced, playing a different character, doing a different style of performing, I got heckled a lot. In my most recent incarnation I've had literally one heckler: he was a child, and he was at a bad angle for a move. He pointed it out, I made a joke that I honestly don't remember right now, and the show went on without further incident.
Because reducing heckling wasn't a change I was deliberately trying to make when I took up the pointy hat, so to speak, it's a little hard for me to place exactly what makes the difference between the characters in that regard. It might be that my act now involves a good bit of comedy and self deprecation. People that would be bored with the magic might still laugh at my jokes, and it's hard for a show-off or know-it-all to see me as prey or a threat in the context of my routines when they involve me making fun of myself, pretending to screw up, acting like I'm worried something won't work because of how many pieces they cut the rubber band into, etc. It's pretty clear that I'm trying to create a light, funny moment of child-like wonder for the most part rather than change people's lives. I've had to sacrifice some of the more intense reactions (nobody calls me the antichrist or says a hail-Mary during my reveals any more, both of which are things that legitimately happened to my old character), but I have more fun, I get better reactions on a broader basis, and I have just about zero trouble with hecklers. It's a give take. That approach doesn't work for every character or performer, unfortunately, so you're gonna have to figure out what works for you.
There is also something to be said for choosing your time, place, and audience wisely, but again I think that's more a matter of experience than anything, so the only real trick to it is to get out and perform until you learn the hard way what not to do. The absolute worst hecklers I ever had were in unpaid, casual, impromptu situations. It's still possible to get hecklers during shows and organized roaming performances, but from what I've seen most people feel pretty uncomfortable heckling in those situations. Not all, of course...some people are just abrasive no matter what you do. When you're just performing for friends, acquaintances, co-workers, or strangers on the street in an unorganized setting, though, it's easier for somebody with a sensitive ego to see you as a show-off or to see an opportunity to pump themselves up by putting you down. That's really what this is about for them; deep down, hecklers are just bullies who want to make themselves feel better by stealing attention from your crowd and making you look bad and feel small. Even though it's their fault for being a bully, bullies almost always pick a target for a reason. If you can learn what their reasons are for picking their targets, you can learn to avoid those triggers in your performances and minimize the bullying. That's really what I think some people are trying to say here; the heckling itself isn't exactly your fault, but if you want to minimize it your'e going to have to examine your performances to see what's triggering it. You're not necessarily doing anything wrong, per se, but you can't change the bully, so your only other option is to change yourself.
In my experience, the best way to learn how to handle hecklers is...well...experience. I'm not calling you inexperienced...I'm just saying that experience is what worked for me. You just have to get out there and perform, take your lumps, and learn what you can. That's how you learn to spot/shut down hecklers, read crowds, etc. Lots of magicians have lots to say on the subject, and I've barely read any of it. When I was younger and less experienced, playing a different character, doing a different style of performing, I got heckled a lot. In my most recent incarnation I've had literally one heckler: he was a child, and he was at a bad angle for a move. He pointed it out, I made a joke that I honestly don't remember right now, and the show went on without further incident.
Because reducing heckling wasn't a change I was deliberately trying to make when I took up the pointy hat, so to speak, it's a little hard for me to place exactly what makes the difference between the characters in that regard. It might be that my act now involves a good bit of comedy and self deprecation. People that would be bored with the magic might still laugh at my jokes, and it's hard for a show-off or know-it-all to see me as prey or a threat in the context of my routines when they involve me making fun of myself, pretending to screw up, acting like I'm worried something won't work because of how many pieces they cut the rubber band into, etc. It's pretty clear that I'm trying to create a light, funny moment of child-like wonder for the most part rather than change people's lives. I've had to sacrifice some of the more intense reactions (nobody calls me the antichrist or says a hail-Mary during my reveals any more, both of which are things that legitimately happened to my old character), but I have more fun, I get better reactions on a broader basis, and I have just about zero trouble with hecklers. It's a give take. That approach doesn't work for every character or performer, unfortunately, so you're gonna have to figure out what works for you.
There is also something to be said for choosing your time, place, and audience wisely, but again I think that's more a matter of experience than anything, so the only real trick to it is to get out and perform until you learn the hard way what not to do. The absolute worst hecklers I ever had were in unpaid, casual, impromptu situations. It's still possible to get hecklers during shows and organized roaming performances, but from what I've seen most people feel pretty uncomfortable heckling in those situations. Not all, of course...some people are just abrasive no matter what you do. When you're just performing for friends, acquaintances, co-workers, or strangers on the street in an unorganized setting, though, it's easier for somebody with a sensitive ego to see you as a show-off or to see an opportunity to pump themselves up by putting you down. That's really what this is about for them; deep down, hecklers are just bullies who want to make themselves feel better by stealing attention from your crowd and making you look bad and feel small. Even though it's their fault for being a bully, bullies almost always pick a target for a reason. If you can learn what their reasons are for picking their targets, you can learn to avoid those triggers in your performances and minimize the bullying. That's really what I think some people are trying to say here; the heckling itself isn't exactly your fault, but if you want to minimize it your'e going to have to examine your performances to see what's triggering it. You're not necessarily doing anything wrong, per se, but you can't change the bully, so your only other option is to change yourself.
You don't learn from mistakes - just ask anyone who's dated the same type of person over and over. You learn from recognizing the mistake and figuring out how to correct it, trying the solution, and seeing if it works any better. Over and over. There's been a lot of "You can try this" in this thread - have you actually read it or did you skip past the posts that didn't suit you?
As I've been saying - you need to look for the parts of your performance that are challenging the "hecklers" and figure out how you can do things differently to avoid setting them off.
To add to this if you also stop doing the latest and greatest and/or things you learned from youtube. Take time to learn how to perform. There are many groups out there that give free classes on performing stage presence and crowd management. Doing the tricks is only one part of the magic.
I thought that was implied. My mistake if i wasn't clear enough.
no need to be sassy, i did read the entire thread and very little of it was helpful. It mostly was just "this wouldn't happen if you were better" with no explanation on how to get better.
I agree with this but some people just dislike magic, regardless of who does it or how it's done some people seem to take it as a challenge. In my experience the best way to shut someone up is either get them on your side (which can be difficult if they're already speaking) or get everyone else against them. Such as immediately walking away without finishing the trick. Everyone else will just get mad with the heckler and if you come back a couple minutes later you shouldn't have a problem
This is kind of off topic, but I was on a Carnival Cruise in the Western Carribbean this past week and took in a magic show by Bobby Borgia (whose show was excellent by the way) and also watched 2 comedy acts. The first comedy act was completely destroyed by a heckler on a motorized scooter.
The gentleman in his 70's "thought" that the comedian was making fun of handicapped people and so he decided to start talking and interrupting the comedian every few moments. Now, this was a family friendly show so that being said, the comedian could not send out any put downs or zingers to shut this man up.
I felt horrible for the comedian because his show had been put to a screeching halt and the entire mood in the club went down the tubes. The heckler kept talking about how he had polio as a child and now had to use this scooter and blah blah blah. He wouldn't shut up. Everyone in the place just kept looking around at each other. As soon as the old man shut up...two young kids started interrupting because they saw how much attention the comedian gave the old guy and before long the house lights flashed and the show was over thus the comedian didn't even get to do more than 5 minutes of his own material in the 30 minute set. Ugh...very painful to watch.
The gentleman in his 70's "thought" that the comedian was making fun of handicapped people and so he decided to start talking and interrupting the comedian every few moments. Now, this was a family friendly show so that being said, the comedian could not send out any put downs or zingers to shut this man up.
I felt horrible for the comedian because his show had been put to a screeching halt and the entire mood in the club went down the tubes. The heckler kept talking about how he had polio as a child and now had to use this scooter and blah blah blah. He wouldn't shut up. Everyone in the place just kept looking around at each other. As soon as the old man shut up...two young kids started interrupting because they saw how much attention the comedian gave the old guy and before long the house lights flashed and the show was over thus the comedian didn't even get to do more than 5 minutes of his own material in the 30 minute set. Ugh...very painful to watch.
The explanation is: Look at you are doing. Figure out what parts of what you are doing are challenging the spectators. Change those parts. Try out the new way of performing and see if it gets the results you want. Repeat as necessary. I've said it at least three times in this thread already.
I hear this all the time and it doesn't jive with my experience. I -never- get people who "just dislike" my magic or performances. I get varied reactions, sure, but I just never run into the problems that seem to plague every other performer.
I do this by examining my performances and looking for the bits that I'm doing that don't get the reaction I want. I then change how I perform it, and try the new way. If the new way gets what I want, I do that, if it doesn't, I start the process over.
It really is that simple. There's no magic bullet, no "If you do this, this and this you will get people reacting like this" kind of stuff. It's different for every performer and the problem, I believe, is that too many performers are copying other people and therefore not as good as they could be.
Isn't that learning from mistakes?
There is a lot of mumbo jumbo on here. Some good, some bad, and some not needed...
I will say this much: Just because I love football doesn't mean I can be a football player. No matter the training, some people aren't meant to play football. Just because I love war movies and the military does not mean that I am cut out to be IN the military. Some people aren't meant to be in the military...
Just because you love magic and like to "perform", doesn't mean you will be good at it. Some people aren't meant to be performers.
Now I am NOT saying that the o/p falls into this category. I don't know him/her and have never seen him/her perform. It's just simply a fact...
Anyway...
So sometimes you cannot help the crowd you are performing for.
I was a bar magician off and on for almost 10 years. One gig I was at, I had a set show. 2 shows a night. I had a mic and everything. GREAT mom and pop venue to allow for creative control. I had hecklers, as it comes with the territory. (Drunk idiots trying to be loud). But more times than not, the crowd took care of the heckler. I learned that from years of trial and error. I TRIED to make a quick come back and while it worked some of the times, other times it turned into a disaster. It just depends on where you are performing.
I personally feel that messing up and or being heckled is ESSENTIAL to being an outstanding performer. If you are used to having your way all of the time, then you will not know what to do the moment an effect fails. This can in itself lead to being heckled, especially if you EXPECT everything to go right.
I spent two years of my life working for one of the greatest magicians who ever lived. To watch what he could do when something didn't go "right" was in many ways, more amazing than the show itself.
So to the o/p, I am GLAD you got heckled. It begins a whole new level of thinking when it comes to your performing. You didn't know what to say because it had never happened to you before. And you know what? You might not have something to say until your 100th time being heckled. But guess what? You will become a better performer because of it...
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