How does black magic work to ruin someone?

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
It's refreshing to come across a thread like this in the magic community. I feel like there is a huge push by the likes of Derren Brown, Criss Angel, James Randi and Penn and Teller to disprove any type of belief system that is beyond what science understands. It's refreshing when others within the industry speak out. It might surprise others that Dan White David Blaine and even David Copperfield are some what religious people. I would guess that within magic there are still more people who believe in the supernatural than those who don't.

If I can add to the discussion, I totally agree with what has said before regarding faith. As James says "Faith without works is dead". Faith without action has no power.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
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London
Just a quick FYI for those hosting a serious interest/curiosity about the occult modes of thought; here's a wonderful site I just happened upon filled with FREE authoritative texts on the subject. I would strongly urge you to look at this list and the names of the contributors, such as Reginald Scott . . . if you know who that was and his importance to magic.

http://www.digitalbookindex.com/subj...ltwitchcraft/1

And while we're on the subject of massive archives of esoteric texts:

http://www.sacred-texts.com
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
It's refreshing to come across a thread like this in the magic community. I feel like there is a huge push by the likes of Derren Brown, Criss Angel, James Randi and Penn and Teller to disprove any type of belief system that is beyond what science understands. It's refreshing when others within the industry speak out. It might surprise others that Dan White David Blaine and even David Copperfield are some what religious people. I would guess that within magic there are still more people who believe in the supernatural than those who don't.

If I can add to the discussion, I totally agree with what has said before regarding faith. As James says "Faith without works is dead". Faith without action has no power.

There's the Christian Magician's Association and I've heard of a few similar groups that are faith-group specific, each of them filled with some wonderful people; I'd rather sit down with one person of faith that is enthused in how to work magic in ways the support that faith than any dozen naysayers (and I've dined with several).

Yes, there is a very aggressive agenda within Magic by the so-called "Rationalists"; it started in the late 1970s and has only grown since, by way of the Skeptical Enquirer and similar publications but likewise, the catalysts found in various avenues of "higher education" -- college campus situation in particular, encouraging a more academic perspective about life and reality vs. talking to and expecting help form "Imaginary Friends".

I explain to everyone that I'm about 93% skeptical but I've seen and experienced far too many miraculous things to not believe in something far greater than our selves. EGO, as I learned many long years ago, is what happens when we Edge God Out, which is exactly what these "progressive thinkers" are doing, the majority of them gluttons when it comes to the delusional idea that "Intellect Requires One to Become an Atheist" e.g. their demonstrations of cynicism "proves" that they are "smarter" than those that have belief. What's unfortunate is how this ideology has been stitched into the world of magic, giving us the misplaced thinking that basically suggests that "Being a Magician Requires You to Not Believe in the Phenomenal"; a strange encouragement given that our job is to replicate the Magickle.

This forum and E are the ONLY TWO FORUMS I'm aware of that have this type of conversation is happening. The discussions tend to be far more mature and respectful than you would find at the Cafe, Genii and especially the UK forums where Derren Brown is God and his bias, the law (alongside Ian Rowland, of course). For this old fart, such a truth is a breath of fresh air and I don't only have gratitude over it, I feel a bit redeemed -- filled with hope, in that the future of magic won't be a "vacant" of a soul as it has appeared for a rather long time now. So yes, Thanks to Everyone here, you're all part of something most excellent.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
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London
I think people tend to miss the fact that it's possible to be rational without being a "rationalist". The terms "skeptic", "rationalist" and (bizarrely) "free-thinker" are used for subscribers to a certain philosophical perspective which holds empirical data to be the only source of truth. Just because a lot of scientists subscribe to this position, it doesn't mean that this is the only valid one. The reason scientists subscribe to this is because, in general, they are trained in science and not in philosophy, so they've been through years of education in which the primacy of the empirical is never questioned.

As an example of that I heard an interview with a very well-respected biologist in which he categorically stated, "All important questions can be answered by science." Clearly this is not the case, as would be very quickly realised if he tried to design an experiment to tell us, for example, under what circumstances killing is acceptable, or whether my girlfriend and I should have children. There are some questions which are value-based and, therefore, can never be answered by science unless you propose that all humans should share the same values (which, of course, is in itself a value-judgement).

Once you realise that reason and empiricism are simply tools for handling certain types of question, and not some kind of post-theist source of guidance, then life can offer more truth and understanding. Skepticism is a healthy attitude, but belief in something that doesn't lend itself to experimentation is not the sign of stupidity or lack of education. Also, bear in mind that all beliefs can be stated in a way that makes them sound idiotic. ("What, so you think that you can turn pictures invisible, make them fly through the air and make them appear again in my house?" Yes, it's called television.) My personal view is that if you investigate what might appear to be "irrational" beliefs with respect, rather than constantly attempting to debunk them then you might learn something. Yes, Ptolemy's description of the solar system has been superseded by astronomical observations. So, the rationalists say, astrology is therefore disproven and warrants no further investigation. But maybe there is more to understand, and symbolic truths within what Ptolemy was saying, which will be missed if we reject his ideas wholesale.

I can find truth in myth and rationalists can't. I think they're missing out.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,879
2,945
I will point out that Derren Brown has described himself as someone that really wants to find real proof of the supernatural, but will not believe in it until he does. I share that same mentality. I would love to find out that there are fairies and ghosts and vampires and such, but until I can find a way to empirically prove it, I will continue looking. I don't want to believe just for the sake of believing, and I don't want to stop looking for proof because it's hard to find.

In Neil Gaiman's Sandman series, I believe, he put it quite well. To paraphrase, "I don't believe in magic. But I do believe in weird s***." In my life, I've seen lots of stuff I can't explain. I know that it happened, because it happened to me, but I can't explain how it happened. Until I have conclusively figured out how they happened, I won't say my theories are anything more than theories.

Personally, I think of myself as a skeptic, but not in the sense that I immediately think all supernatural or non-scientific explanations are wrong. I'm skeptical in that I don't believe that something is one way until I've seen proof thereof. Almost everything humans have 'known' over the millennia has changed. The earth is round, not flat. We orbit the sun, not the the other way around. Gravity isn't because we're at the bottom of the universe. The world probably isn't a disc sitting on the back of a turtle. Wait, that last one isn't serious :)

So I'm guessing that some day in the future we'll figure out the scientific explanation for 'magick'. But really, to quote two more fiction sources, Dr. Who says, "You lot, you use numbers. Find the rate equation, the right string of numbers and you can split an atom. The Carrion Knights used words." And Thor, "Your people call it science, we call it magic." Magick is just another kind of science when executed by people who are properly studying it and following protocols. And science is just another kind of magic when you don't understand everything behind it. Stage magicians have been using that for as long as there has been magicians.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
I will point out that Derren Brown has described himself as someone that really wants to find real proof of the supernatural, but will not believe in it until he does. I share that same mentality. I would love to find out that there are fairies and ghosts and vampires and such, but until I can find a way to empirically prove it, I will continue looking. I don't want to believe just for the sake of believing, and I don't want to stop looking for proof because it's hard to find.

This is a very old marketing tool used by many (and not just magicians but well known scientists as well). The problem with this contention is that it's what theologians recognize as the Doubting Thomas Syndrome -- the Apostle Thomas wouldn't believe JC had risen from the grave until JC himself told him to put his fingers into the scars in his hands and upon his side, it wasn't until this point that he was able to accept the seemingly impossible. While I personally view the resurrection story in a completely different light, this particular tale is more than applicable in that persons that live with such myopia can't possible enjoy a forest due to all the trees that are in their way -- they refuse to see, to let go and accept the simple within the dramatic.

I'm very much a skeptic but in my early years skeptics weren't demanding carved in stone and unshakable facts, this started with the likes of Randi, Shermer and as noted, the cynics of the late 1960s through the 70s and ever worsening as we moved toward our present. If we step back and look at this social-political creature, we can see how what "skepticism" has become has little to do with disbelief in things psychic or magickle and everything to do with an atheist agenda. Randi claims otherwise and yet, he's accepted numerous awards of recognition for his work in spreading said message and converting so many "lost souls" . . .

I stopped (as many of my elders likewise did) using the term "Skeptic" by the time I was in my 20's because it made me feel guilty and even dirty. Not just the various underhanded and questionable ways the new skeptic was using to slam spiritual thinking, but the qualities within the lives of those doing the slamming as well; How could a decent human being embrace an ideology espoused by persons that were predatory and willing to bluntly use the very tactics the charlatans were using, in order to manipulate others?

What it boils down to is that I can't, on a moral or ethical standing, respect a leadership that promotes an "all or nothing" agenda no matter who or what it's about. Secondly, I have to question that leadership's own integrity; when I keep seeing one account after another in which sexual improprieties are involved, especially when it comes to minors, I know something is wrong and unbalanced. When I keep hearing about association with this and that noted "criminal" type, I must likewise question the situation. Then too, when I hear of a person saying that they have not affiliation with certain groups and yet they accept high honors & accolades from those very organizations . . . well let's face it, that's pure duplicity and proof that these individuals are not honest, don't tell us the truth and are simply using said platform for personal gain. . . even when they are being supported through the "non-profit" leg of things . . . Al Capone had a few non-profit operations supporting him, right?

While all human beings have blemishes to their character much of it stems from happenstance in life, not deliberate acts of deception and the cruelty of zealotism. Morally & Ethically, I think it's up to us to -- I believe it mandatory in fact -- that we hold the self-righteous to a higher standard so that hypocrisy cannot bring them down. Problem is, instead of demanding these leaders of the Skeptics community to step up to the table and explain their transgressions HONESTLY, the followers help obfuscate the issues and consistently turn such issues around in a way that breaks down and thwarts (in most cases) all other instances of challenge. This usually means discrediting those that make such a stand . . . something I've learned quite directly.

While tempting, I'll not drag the two or three well pummeled horses into this discussion that could be looked at, it's simply not worth it. As Uri Geller told me some years ago, we're talking about a angry old man with one foot in the grave already and what is past, is past. But it really is up to US to challenge these "moralists" by holding them to the same standards they put their "opponents" against. It is likewise up to US to stand-up for our personal rights as well as those of others, when it comes to belief and personal testimony; the right to not be ridiculed and belittled or otherwise humiliated from the stage or in public forums of any form. Everyone has a right to believe as they are lead to believe but NO ONE has the right to force their will or ideologies onto another (and yes, that includes any and all forms of dogma, religious or otherwise).

Again, kudos all around for a very positive and mature thread. Let's keep living the example vs. being the lower denominator.
 
Sep 8, 2012
86
1
ask Voldemort, he specialized in the famous ''Avada Kedavra'' spell. But always remember, you could end up in azkaban.
 
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