I did not say he did it for a 'lofty, noble purpose' I said that it was not created to be a 1 on 1, it was created to be useful. Ace Cut seems like it was thrown together in a few mintues for the purpose of a 1 on 1. Missing Link, 5 Speed, Outjog Herrman shift, Unicoin etc are obviously far higher quality than something like Ace Cut.
Joe Paschall | Ace Cut
- Thread starter JDENredden
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I did not say he did it for a 'lofty, noble purpose' I said that it was not created to be a 1 on 1, it was created to be useful. Ace Cut seems like it was thrown together in a few mintues for the purpose of a 1 on 1. Missing Link, 5 Speed, Outjog Herrman shift, Unicoin etc are obviously far higher quality than something like Ace Cut.
Paraphrasing was mine, granted. But I still think the motive of a 1-on-1 can't be determined from watching it. Further, I think that the motive of a 1-on-1 is a fruitless way of judging it. There is really no difference between "created to be useful" and "created to be a 1-on-1."
CK's Five Speed was put together for a 1-on-1, just like Aaron Fisher's Outjogged Hermann Shift, DM's Crunk, and any of the other segments. Many of the D&D segments were just ripped from The Trilogy, yet I'm assuming you have no argument with them being resold in a different format. Who's to say that Paschall's Ace Cut can't be useful? I can think of a way I can incorporate it into at least two of my routines, and I haven't even bought it yet.
It's one thing to say, "Hey, T11, can we have some more advanced 1-on-1s? We miss Aaron Fisher!" It's another to allege that the quality of the product has gone down, just because you don't like the subject matter.
It's like food: Wolfgang Puck could make the most incredible, gourmet mushroom and bean omelet, with the finest ingredients, perfect mix of spices and professional cooking. I'm still not going to eat it, because I hate mushrooms, beans and eggs.
I disagree that there is no difference between 'created to be useful' and created to be a '1 on 1'. Five Speed was not created to be a 1 on 1, CK talks about the history of it and it seems quite clear that profit was not the motivation for creating it. Profit was the motivation for creating the 1 on 1 teaching it but not the motivation for the effect.
Paschall's Ace Cut is probably useful in some situations, but there are many Ace Productions that are far better available for free.
I don't think i'll be replying to this thread again, we both have different opinions on this and are not going to change them. I don't have anything more to add to what i've previously said. I think we're going to have to 'agree to disagree'.
Seriously, this is what I've been saying about the one on ones. (How right you are Darian)
Don't own any teaching material? Don't want to give out 5 bucks? Look at that amazing ace pro by Luka (self standing sculpture) , or Top Pop, by Kev, or Nephia from Sebastian, all from decknique. All these amazing flourisher are such unbelievably nice people, they give out some of their coolest work for free!
Once again, I was hoping it wouldn't be, but once again, another crappy one on one that I wouldn't bother taking the time to download if it was for free.
Don't own any teaching material? Don't want to give out 5 bucks? Look at that amazing ace pro by Luka (self standing sculpture) , or Top Pop, by Kev, or Nephia from Sebastian, all from decknique. All these amazing flourisher are such unbelievably nice people, they give out some of their coolest work for free!
Once again, I was hoping it wouldn't be, but once again, another crappy one on one that I wouldn't bother taking the time to download if it was for free.
Just my say on this:
From what I've read a lot of you are forgetting that this isn't an "Ace Production" it's an "Ace Cutting Sequence". Yeah okay they're similar but a production e.g. Realtime by the Bucks is VERY Different from this. Y'dig?
Just think, if you had NO idea about the principles of sleight of hand or whatever and you saw this on TV. You probably wouldn't have a clue as to how he does it. And I'm pretty certain, following on from this same idea, that a number of you would have no problem paying $4.95 for this. (of course a select few would then still go on to complain about it either being not real magic or not knucklebusting)
On the other hand however, I can see where a lot of you are coming from - this isn't flashy and doesn't appear to be very difficult. However, I would argue that this is from a kind of self-need of knucklebusting sleight of hand so that one may feel a certain sense of satisfaction upon getting it down.
Just my thoughts and I know a lot of others will have differing opinions and will probably not listen to a word I've said and still argue their point without taking into account what I've said at all. Not that it matters, this is only my opinion.
Final thoughts: Take care of yourselves, and each other.
- Sean
From what I've read a lot of you are forgetting that this isn't an "Ace Production" it's an "Ace Cutting Sequence". Yeah okay they're similar but a production e.g. Realtime by the Bucks is VERY Different from this. Y'dig?
Just think, if you had NO idea about the principles of sleight of hand or whatever and you saw this on TV. You probably wouldn't have a clue as to how he does it. And I'm pretty certain, following on from this same idea, that a number of you would have no problem paying $4.95 for this. (of course a select few would then still go on to complain about it either being not real magic or not knucklebusting)
On the other hand however, I can see where a lot of you are coming from - this isn't flashy and doesn't appear to be very difficult. However, I would argue that this is from a kind of self-need of knucklebusting sleight of hand so that one may feel a certain sense of satisfaction upon getting it down.
Just my thoughts and I know a lot of others will have differing opinions and will probably not listen to a word I've said and still argue their point without taking into account what I've said at all. Not that it matters, this is only my opinion.
Final thoughts: Take care of yourselves, and each other.
- Sean
I wasn't planning on replying to this thread anymore but you have some valid points.
Ace Production vs Ace Cutting - There is a difference between the 2, I may have compared Ace Cut to an ace production before, I can't remember. If I did it wasn't the best comparison although that wasn't really the point.
I was saying that it isn't very good compared to other similar routines. A more appropriate comparison would be Lee Asher's Wipe Your Ace which can be seen here http://www.leeasher.com/media/index.html. This routine is far more creative and well thought out and would justify the price of $5.
I'm not quite sure what your point is here, simply because a laymen would not know how it's done does not justify selling it to magicians.
If a beginner did pay $4.95 they would probably be annoyed when they found that there are better alternatives available for free and all the moves used can be found on decknique and youtube.
Nobody is complaining that it isn't knucklebusting, Five Speed is very easy yet got great reviews. They are complaining because it uses basic moves that everyone knows and is in no way original.
Ace Production vs Ace Cutting - There is a difference between the 2, I may have compared Ace Cut to an ace production before, I can't remember. If I did it wasn't the best comparison although that wasn't really the point.
I was saying that it isn't very good compared to other similar routines. A more appropriate comparison would be Lee Asher's Wipe Your Ace which can be seen here http://www.leeasher.com/media/index.html. This routine is far more creative and well thought out and would justify the price of $5.
I'm not quite sure what your point is here, simply because a laymen would not know how it's done does not justify selling it to magicians.
If a beginner did pay $4.95 they would probably be annoyed when they found that there are better alternatives available for free and all the moves used can be found on decknique and youtube.
Nobody is complaining that it isn't knucklebusting, Five Speed is very easy yet got great reviews. They are complaining because it uses basic moves that everyone knows and is in no way original.
Thanks for replying in a respective manner.
So many don't these days and I appreciate your thoughts. These were the only things I disagreed on and even so, only slightly.I'm not quite sure what your point is here, simply because a laymen would not know how it's done does not justify selling it to magicians.
But I thought we performed for laymen and them not knowing how something was done is part of the magic. I think I may be missing your point, either way, Theory11 isn't about fooling magicians - it's about the progression of magic.
If a beginner did pay $4.95 they would probably be annoyed when they found that there are better alternatives available for free and all the moves used can be found on decknique and youtube.
I agree, I too would be a little annoyed that I'd paid for something that is possibly public domain. But in the same token you then get onto the whole youtube exposure discussion - a discussion in it's own thread. But I do see what you're saying, I would argue though that a lot of those other tutorials etc. are a lot flashier and not one-handed per se. If I was looking specifically for a one-handed ace cutting sequence that was cheap and available this'd be perfect as a beginner. We have to remember the 1-on-1 section and Theory11 as a whole is for the magic community and not just advanced members. They have to provide for those who are just starting out too. In my eyes, this ace cutting sequence would be awesome for someone just starting out or getting into magic. (Obviously they'd have to have a little under their belt
)Nobody is complaining that it isn't knucklebusting, Five Speed is very easy yet got great reviews. They are complaining because it uses basic moves that everyone knows and is in no way original.
Hang on, 'cause you've kind of contradicted yourself there. They're not complaining because it's not knucklebusting, but because it uses basic moves? Aren't they the same thing but phrased differently? Also, I hate to break it to you but Five Speed isn't exactly original either, in fact there's a completley impromptu version by Larry Jennings called "Ambitious Classic" (I highly recommend checking that out by the way). But again we come back to this beginner thing, you say "everyone knows". I can guarantee you a beginner would probably have very little idea if any of how he does what he does. I will admit, even I'm unsure as to exactly how he does it and I'm actually quite tempted to purchase it (omg my first Joel Paschall product <3 - joking
).I'm sure I had more to say about something but I've forgotten lol. Have at it.
- Sean
I perhaps didn't explain myself very well on this point. I was saying that just because an effect will fool a laymen doesn't automatically mean that it is of value to magicians. A magician is likely to already be aware of the sleights used as they are so widely known, so it will be of little value to them.
I don't think we really disagree here. As for youtube exposure I don't think it's a problem for public domain moves such as the charlier cut. Some of them may be good beginner tricks but I still don't think that justifies the price of $5 for it. Perhaps you think they are worth $5, if you do then I can't argue with that as it's your opinion.
Again, perhaps I didn't explain my point very well. By basic moves, I mean things that are common knowledge to everyone and are 'public domain' i.e. widely available on both decknique and youtube. I was not referring to difficulty when I said 'basic moves' People are not looking for difficulty, they are looking for originality. Five Speed used it's concept in a clever way and is a routine that most people have not seen before.
I was unaware of the Larry Jennings version of Five Speed and will have to look into it.
As for the beginnner not knowing how it works, I still don't think that justifies selling it for $5.
I actually found it quite difficult to reply to your post as I don't think we really disagree on much, the issues we do disagree on seem to be fairly insignificant.
I think it just comes down to if we think Ace Cut is worth $5, I don't as all the moves are widely available, I don't think it is fair selling them to a beginner who doesn't know they are available for free elsewhere.
I actually found it quite difficult to reply to your post as I don't think we really disagree on much, the issues we do disagree on seem to be fairly insignificant.
I agree.
I think it just comes down to if we think Ace Cut is worth $5, I don't as all the moves are widely available, I don't think it is fair selling them to a beginner who doesn't know they are available for free elsewhere.
I disagree... I think it comes down to if we think Ace Cut is worth $4.95
Seriously though, I agree with you here on what it comes down to. I agree with you to an extent, that of which being I think it's fair for them to sell it being as they are a company at the end of the day. Maybe $2.50 would be a better price, I don't know.I'd just like to take the time to say that I liked it when they taught the Card Spin in the media section. I knew it already but I think that is what they need to do more often for moves such as the card spin. Perhaps laying down a double could be next. I know a lot of people (including myself) have trouble laying down a double with confidence.
- Sean
I actually found it quite difficult to reply to your post as I don't think we really disagree on much, the issues we do disagree on seem to be fairly insignificant.
I agree.
I think it just comes down to if we think Ace Cut is worth $5, I don't as all the moves are widely available, I don't think it is fair selling them to a beginner who doesn't know they are available for free elsewhere.
I disagree... I think it comes down to if we think Ace Cut is worth $4.95
I'd just like to take the time to say that I liked it when they taught the Card Spin in the media section. I knew it already but I think that is what they need to do more often for moves such as the card spin. Perhaps laying down a double could be next. I know a lot of people (including myself) have trouble laying down a double with confidence.
- Sean
I don't have anything else to say on the subject really. I appreciate the well thought out replies and you have raised some interesting points.
I think putting stuff like 'laying down a double' in the media section would be a great idea. It could easily be done when they are filming a batch of 1 on 1's.
That's exactly why there is no difference between "created to be useful" and "created to be 1-on-1."
I know you're tired of this, and I apologize for not letting it go. But this whole debate got started over the intent of a product's release. As you said, CK tells us about the history behind Five Speed. Yet he releases it in a 1-on-1 anyway. Likewise, when has JP told us that he designed Ace Cut exclusively for the 1-on-1 section? (We know he didn't, he told us in another thread.) And even if it did, would it make a difference?
This thread started out with the logic that Ace Cut wasn't a good 1-on-1 offering, there's better, free effects elsewhere and that T11 is releasing effects aimed at selling, not furthering the art. I'm saying all those notions are kooky and inaccurate.
Agree to disagree? You bet. But I'm the jerk that has to get the last word.
Well, I want to know what Joel Paschall thinks of all this contradictory.
Anyways, this was insanely unoriginal, once again. I'd take a simple ace pro over this pile of *garbage*any day.
Anybody who argues that this is a good product and it is 'ONLY' 5 bucks is obviously a n00b or a t11 fanboi. Seriously, if you have no knowledge on the matter, don't bother posting because in the eyes of people with a bit of experience, strait up saying 'this is worth 5 bucks, your wrong' is a meaningless opinion.
No offence, it's like me giving Derren Brown mentalism tips.
22ND EDIT!!!! by sean: please, don't be like the ellusionist forums.. dam modsd here- if your gonna edit my post state exactly where you edited it. it's called freedom of speech and if you don't like my opinion at least state the exact point of the post where your taking away my rights. and don't edit this part kuz that would be totally contradictory.
On another thread, regarding static, that other terrible 1on1 which was released by JP, some one said 'If this exact cut has been published before, then I'll call it unoriginal,' which made me chuckle a little and at the same time be somewhat horrified by the fact that he's been doing this so long and still has such a tiny knowledge of stuff like this.
If you don't know what your saying, and haven't been doing this for that long, please don't bother arguing that this is worth any money at all, because for anybody who knows their stuff knows it isn't, in any way.
Plus, why'd ampersan5340's comment get deleted? I thought he had the best point so far this thread.
Anyways, this was insanely unoriginal, once again. I'd take a simple ace pro over this pile of *garbage*any day.
Anybody who argues that this is a good product and it is 'ONLY' 5 bucks is obviously a n00b or a t11 fanboi. Seriously, if you have no knowledge on the matter, don't bother posting because in the eyes of people with a bit of experience, strait up saying 'this is worth 5 bucks, your wrong' is a meaningless opinion.
No offence, it's like me giving Derren Brown mentalism tips.
22ND EDIT!!!! by sean: please, don't be like the ellusionist forums.. dam modsd here- if your gonna edit my post state exactly where you edited it. it's called freedom of speech and if you don't like my opinion at least state the exact point of the post where your taking away my rights. and don't edit this part kuz that would be totally contradictory.
On another thread, regarding static, that other terrible 1on1 which was released by JP, some one said 'If this exact cut has been published before, then I'll call it unoriginal,' which made me chuckle a little and at the same time be somewhat horrified by the fact that he's been doing this so long and still has such a tiny knowledge of stuff like this.
If you don't know what your saying, and haven't been doing this for that long, please don't bother arguing that this is worth any money at all, because for anybody who knows their stuff knows it isn't, in any way.
Plus, why'd ampersan5340's comment get deleted? I thought he had the best point so far this thread.
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because they dont like ppl talking bad about their products, just like other companies.
*cough* ellusionist *cough*
Exactly, every day I'm here this place reminds me more of ellusionst.
I hate the moderators on here, they're honestly like dictators, you can't have free speech without them getting offended by something, honestly. I say the word **** and it gets edited.
It's complete discrimination, and for all I know this post will get edited for some ****** reason by some moderator who can't handle the true reality, which is, I have a complaint, and so do many other people. Simply editing posts instead of replying with something isn't doing anything, it's avoiding reality.
Learn to come back with something creative or something intelligent instead of editing my comments now please. How does that sound? Think you can give living life for real and avoiding problems by editing posts a try? The decknique moderators wouldn't even think of doing that. They're actually intelligent people that like to hear what you have to say, and if they don't like it, they'll reply.
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Who cares if people who know magic figures out the trick? Isn't it the laypeople you should be worried about?
theory11 thrives off of feedback, and constructive criticism -- both positive and negative -- is encouraged every day. In the end, that is the best way to constantly improve and raise the bar.
Nevertheless, while all are free to express opinions -- whether negative or positive -- these opinions, of course, can -- and should -- be expressed in a professional, respectful manner. theory11 has followed the axiom that we must respect those who respect the art of magic -- and we should all follow that by showing respect to others, as well.
In addition, contrary to what was previously stated, no posts have been removed in this thread. Any type of constructive criticism, suggestions, or advice-- as long as they are respectful and professional -- are more than welcome. In fact, the first thing most of the theory11 crew does in the morning is check the "Improving T11" thread because it's important to improve and evolve not by only considering the opinions of the artists and staff -- but also those of members because, in the end, they're here for you.
PS: Bicyclemagik -- be sure to check your email.
Cheers,
JTM
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If there was a rep system.
Finally someone who's been in conventions, and talked to the pros.