Recently i was looking into buying new magic tricks and searched chris ramsay red pill there were normal trailers and reviews but then i saw a 1 hour video revealing the trick (not really revealing just putting his dvd on youtube)i was really annoyed that you can put somebody's hardwork for free on youtube i looked on his account and there was a album of 85 videos revealing more tricks on youtube for free is there no copyright for magic??what do you guys think about this??
Magic has no copyright?
- Thread starter Suchir
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I think there is a copyright of the DVD, if you contact Ellusionist they should be able to get rid of it. If they are copying the DVD, that's copy right infringement. Just send them a message in the support team, and give the name of the person. They can file a copyright claim and everything is good.. sort of. I've done this with penguin once, maybe with a few other people too.
But yeah, people "reveal" tricks all the time. They are taught very poorly, and are wrong most of the time. Easiest way around that is to say "no TV rights, or video rights are granted. For permission, please contact..." in the DVD, but that also doesn't work all the time. It is a major issue for us magicians, but luckily the "magician's code of ethics" for everyone's person basically keeps people from learning stuff through YouTube. And the people who do watch it generally don't end up remembering it. Laymen don't care enough to hunt for it, and they wont just come across it randomly. It's a major problem, but not that big in the big picture.
Maaz is absolutely correct. DVD's and it's content are copyrighted.
Actually, if you invent a trick, and publish the trick and method in any available form (and it is definitely a creation of your own and has a timestamp connected to it to prove your publication was first), you can legally claim ownership just like any other invention. It is always suggested to legally file for patents and copyrights however and the reason many magicians don't, is because those documents are public...which means a quick copyright/patent search would reveal the method of the trick. There are alternatives however.
Actually, if you invent a trick, and publish the trick and method in any available form (and it is definitely a creation of your own and has a timestamp connected to it to prove your publication was first), you can legally claim ownership just like any other invention. It is always suggested to legally file for patents and copyrights however and the reason many magicians don't, is because those documents are public...which means a quick copyright/patent search would reveal the method of the trick. There are alternatives however.
I have found this to be a great resource for those wanting to copyright their materials. It's not only free but it also doesn't lay the details of your content bare for all the world to see...unless you want them to see it.
https://www.copyrighted.com/
https://www.copyrighted.com/
Ellusionist doesn't have the rights to Red Pill. It's either Ramsay or Murphy's I think, and of those two I'd report it to Ramsay. Murphy's never seems to respond when I let them know about copyright infringement.
That isn't quite correct. A copyright applies to "works" such as writings, recording (sound and video), dramatic performances and software. It does not apply to ideas or, in magic, methods. It just means that someone cannot produce an exact copy of what you did. While someone cannot copy and sell or otherwise "publish"(e.g. on YouTube) a video, someone can legally (not ethically) teach a trick that is in a DVD by filming their own video.
A copyright attaches to a "work" upon publicaton or performance but as discussed, it doesn't protect the method. For something to be patented it needs to be new and useful. I'm guessing most card tricks aren't useful. Some stage illusions are patented. Typically, you would patent the design components that are necessary for construction of the illusion but not the secret components because the patents are public record.
You can still Claim ownership of it, and I think he was referring to copying a DVD, which is illegal under federal policy.
And you can actually claim a copyright on the pantomime around your trick. So the actual moves in an order, and the subtleties used with them can be copyrighted. This wont stop stealing and exposing it on YouTube, but it will limit it severely.
I think I have found a loophole that might be able to protect them! It's utilizes the trade secret law. Essentially, this is what I read about it (the exact example given, paraphrased a bit). "You Can't become Copperfield's Assistant and turn around and reveal all of his secrets to the public without getting massively sued.
Easiest thing to do is put a little box like this in the terms and uses, or just put it at the end of each purchase (or at the start of each DVD).
"By watching [and/or learning from] this product, you are considered an [assistant or whatever word fits here. Student, assistant... learner?] of this intellect under [Company or Teacher], created by [Creator]. By continuing to watch [and/or learn from] this product, you hereby agree to not reveal the intellectual [or entertainment, or whatever] secret taught through this product to the public, without first having gained consent from [the company, or the creator or whatever]. Protected under the Trade Secrets Protection Act."
Now obviously that would have to be revised and find more things to put and stuff, but it's a start.
I'm going to make another thread for this just to get my point across!
Correct. When I said this I was referring to protecting one's self against direct plagiarism with effects that are in writing, or recorded via video/sound. Most effects are taught by publishing or making available the instructions in either writing or audio/visual recording. You cannot stop someone from learning the effect from these instructions and then performing it or telling everyone how it's done....but you can stop them from copying text from your written instructions or video from your DVD (which is the problem the op was talking about).
Like an NDA. Love it. I wonder however if an NDA is required before purchase by law or if prior to reading/watching is enough.
@Maaz Hasan , I posted about your idea in your other thread. The short answer is that it won't work because your product is the method and selling the method makes it no longer a secret.
It is clear that putting up someone's video or book on the internet for downloading or view is illegal. Beyond that, there is very little legal protection. We rely on ethics and forums like this one to explain those ethics.
That said, my favorite quote on this topic is by Jim Steinmeyer - We are guarding an empty vault. Our secrets and methods are meaningless. One of my favorite stories is how Roberto Giobbi fooled the pants off of Christian Engblom using the Cooler (which is Christian's product). We guard secrets like they matter -- they don't. It is our performances that matter.
If you perform magic using say-do-see patter (saying what you are going to do, doing it and saying "see what happened") or as a I-Know-The-Secret-And-You-Don't game, then yes the secrets matter. However, if you perform to entertain, the audince will not care how you did what you did.
Finally, if you want to keep something from being revealed on YouTube - write a book. The people who reveal magic don't read magic books.
It is clear that putting up someone's video or book on the internet for downloading or view is illegal. Beyond that, there is very little legal protection. We rely on ethics and forums like this one to explain those ethics.
That said, my favorite quote on this topic is by Jim Steinmeyer - We are guarding an empty vault. Our secrets and methods are meaningless. One of my favorite stories is how Roberto Giobbi fooled the pants off of Christian Engblom using the Cooler (which is Christian's product). We guard secrets like they matter -- they don't. It is our performances that matter.
If you perform magic using say-do-see patter (saying what you are going to do, doing it and saying "see what happened") or as a I-Know-The-Secret-And-You-Don't game, then yes the secrets matter. However, if you perform to entertain, the audince will not care how you did what you did.
Finally, if you want to keep something from being revealed on YouTube - write a book. The people who reveal magic don't read magic books.
My only slight disagreement with this statement is that magic tends to lose its entertainment value when the secret is revealed or if the audience knows how you did it. This practically the only thing that separates us from comedians or lecturers...is that we can do something that they don't know, can't, or can't figure out how to do themselves.
Now, I do feel that reveals are something that damages some aspects of magic, but I also believe it helps make magic better. As magicians it's our job to stay on our toes and create illusions that are harder to figure out. If an effect is revealed (which rarely matters since the people revealing it have almost no following anyway), then it is our job to figure out a better way to do it that makes the outcome even more impossible. Essentially it is our job to take that reveal and by creating a different/better way to achieve it...prove the reveal wrong, or at least have the perception of it being wrong.
A magician's entire profession is based around us being able to make the impossible possible. Once it loses the "impossible" factor, it loses its draw.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that "impossible" and "magical" are interchangeable.
A good entertainer can take things like Linking Rings or Cups and Balls or the TT Silk vanish - and even though someone knows how it's done they can still be entertained by it. Even amazed if, like you said, the performer takes into account that existing knowledge and prepares for it.
Too many magicians rely on doing something impossible and assuming that's good enough. There's nothing there, though. It's like candy for the brain.
But if you focus on connecting with the audience and creating a unique experience for them, they'll convince themselves they don't know how it's done because that's more fun and satisfying for them.
I realized that I chose the wrong wording after I typed it and it was too late to change it lol. You are correct. There is a difference between magical and impossible. Both however lie within the gray area of deception. Deception relies on the fact that the audience doesn't really know what is happening. They know what you are telling them or implying is happening. This is another aspect that you lose when they know for certain what is happening.
How do you explain the popularity of hypnosis shows? In them you are doing exactly what you are saying you are doing and many walk away amazed and mystified.
And to follow up on that - Contact Mind Reading? AKA Muscle Reading. Amazing, mystifying, real skill.
There are ways to do readings that are genuine as well, and they will almost always leave someone amazed if the reader is any good at it.
Magic is not based around deception, that's just one of our tools. Magic is based around connection and creating a unique experience that evokes emotional responses.
There are ways to do readings that are genuine as well, and they will almost always leave someone amazed if the reader is any good at it.
Magic is not based around deception, that's just one of our tools. Magic is based around connection and creating a unique experience that evokes emotional responses.
I don't consider any of those things "magic." I consider them real tools that can be used as magic. In some sense, to me..that would be the same as considering a magician the same as musician simply because they both entertain an audience. Apples to oranges.
We don't call mediums/psychics "magicians." It is definitely an art form that can be used to entertain, but more often it is a skill used to deceive people out of their money.
Stage magic, close-up magic, as well as card magic, even mentalism...all use deception for the reaction. They are all forms of utilizing the mindset of "you don't know how I do this...so it's amazing to you. If you knew how I did this, it would no longer be amazing to you."
We don't call mediums/psychics "magicians." It is definitely an art form that can be used to entertain, but more often it is a skill used to deceive people out of their money.
Stage magic, close-up magic, as well as card magic, even mentalism...all use deception for the reaction. They are all forms of utilizing the mindset of "you don't know how I do this...so it's amazing to you. If you knew how I did this, it would no longer be amazing to you."
See - I think the problem here is you have a very narrow definition of "magic".
You're also using false logic.
Let's unpack this.
Readings, hypnotism, and CMR are considered to be cornerstones of mentalism. As are memory feats. That's a big part of what makes mentalism distinct - the fact that many of the skills displayed are genuine skills of the mind.
Derren Brown memorized the A-Z for London for The Gathering. He was able to name the grid reference for any street given, and he was able to describe the square for any grid reference given. People were amazed by that. That's a real skill taken to a magical extreme.
CMR is one of the most magical things you can do - you're genuinely reading someone's mind. I've done it several times and people are always amazed. They think something, you find it. I've even done a drawing dupe with CMR. Kreskin built a large part of his career around this skill and that was referenced in the Great Buck Howard.
Hypnosis is one of the most magical things that people can experience when done correctly. I once had a subject believe he was in the Black Forests of Germany.
But you called these things tools - Ok. Sure. But then everything is a tool. A double lift is a tool. Deception is a tool, but it's not the only way, and if you're not deceiving that doesn't mean it's not magical.
Let's look at modern performers. Steven Brundage does a true blindfolded Rubik's Cube solve, I believe. People are as amazed by that as they are with the rest of his routines. Ben Cardall is the real life Sherlock Holmes - he made a career out of doing genuine readings (as in observation and deduction) and only adding in a bit of deception on top of that. He's booked as a magician/mentalist.
Look at Richard Turner. He tells you he's controlling the cards and using sleight of hand. He doesn't even call himself a magician, he calls himself a card sharp - but that doesn't stop others from calling him a magician and he was a featured performer at the Magic Castle.
Oh, and mediums. It wasn't really until Houdini started his crusade of debunking that magicians were so determined not to be associated with mediumship. A lot of the older books use that kind of thing as a premise for their presentations. Annemann did seance magic a lot. There was a time when if you were a magician people assumed you could speak to the dead or devils or imps or whatever. I just got and read through a small pile of out of print and rare books that were almost all related to spook shows and mediumship.
Magic isn't the method. It's the feeling the audience experiences. Deceptive techniques are one way to create a magical feeling, but they are not required. What is requires is engaging their imagination and getting them thinking about what is possible.
You're also using false logic.
Let's unpack this.
Readings, hypnotism, and CMR are considered to be cornerstones of mentalism. As are memory feats. That's a big part of what makes mentalism distinct - the fact that many of the skills displayed are genuine skills of the mind.
Derren Brown memorized the A-Z for London for The Gathering. He was able to name the grid reference for any street given, and he was able to describe the square for any grid reference given. People were amazed by that. That's a real skill taken to a magical extreme.
CMR is one of the most magical things you can do - you're genuinely reading someone's mind. I've done it several times and people are always amazed. They think something, you find it. I've even done a drawing dupe with CMR. Kreskin built a large part of his career around this skill and that was referenced in the Great Buck Howard.
Hypnosis is one of the most magical things that people can experience when done correctly. I once had a subject believe he was in the Black Forests of Germany.
But you called these things tools - Ok. Sure. But then everything is a tool. A double lift is a tool. Deception is a tool, but it's not the only way, and if you're not deceiving that doesn't mean it's not magical.
Let's look at modern performers. Steven Brundage does a true blindfolded Rubik's Cube solve, I believe. People are as amazed by that as they are with the rest of his routines. Ben Cardall is the real life Sherlock Holmes - he made a career out of doing genuine readings (as in observation and deduction) and only adding in a bit of deception on top of that. He's booked as a magician/mentalist.
Look at Richard Turner. He tells you he's controlling the cards and using sleight of hand. He doesn't even call himself a magician, he calls himself a card sharp - but that doesn't stop others from calling him a magician and he was a featured performer at the Magic Castle.
Oh, and mediums. It wasn't really until Houdini started his crusade of debunking that magicians were so determined not to be associated with mediumship. A lot of the older books use that kind of thing as a premise for their presentations. Annemann did seance magic a lot. There was a time when if you were a magician people assumed you could speak to the dead or devils or imps or whatever. I just got and read through a small pile of out of print and rare books that were almost all related to spook shows and mediumship.
Magic isn't the method. It's the feeling the audience experiences. Deceptive techniques are one way to create a magical feeling, but they are not required. What is requires is engaging their imagination and getting them thinking about what is possible.
The problem I have with what you're referring to is that you can literally call anything "magic" within your consideration of what magic is. I have a few bands and musicians that I like. I am thoroughly entertained and amazed at their ability when I see them perform. That doesn't make them magicians.
Hypnosis a real ability that can be used in the realm of magic but is usually used to treat patients with psychological disorders, etc. Cold Reading is a skill, which often used to defraud people out of their money. Darren Brown has figured out a way to use it to not only entertain but also to reveal the frauds who pretend it's real.
It's like calling science magic instead of science. Yes, science can be used to do amazing things, amaze and audience and to do things that seem impossible. That does not make it magic, nor the scientist a magician.
You feel that I have too narrow of a definition of magic and I believe you have too broad of a definition of magic. I feel that each genre of magic has its place in the magic community. However, I believe they are owed their own merit. Mentalism is not magic. It's real psychology used in a way that entertains. That's not to say it doesn't have it's place.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Hypnosis a real ability that can be used in the realm of magic but is usually used to treat patients with psychological disorders, etc. Cold Reading is a skill, which often used to defraud people out of their money. Darren Brown has figured out a way to use it to not only entertain but also to reveal the frauds who pretend it's real.
It's like calling science magic instead of science. Yes, science can be used to do amazing things, amaze and audience and to do things that seem impossible. That does not make it magic, nor the scientist a magician.
You feel that I have too narrow of a definition of magic and I believe you have too broad of a definition of magic. I feel that each genre of magic has its place in the magic community. However, I believe they are owed their own merit. Mentalism is not magic. It's real psychology used in a way that entertains. That's not to say it doesn't have it's place.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I don't think it loses entertainment value, but it does lose its magic. It really is all in the presentation/delivery for it to be entertaining; which to me, is all that matters. I can watch the same stand up comedians over and over again and my sides will hurt every time. I can watch the same Kinjaz choreography and be entertained again and again. I know exactly what is going to happen when, but the performance is so damn good that I am still entertained every time.
Same with magic I think. When I see a new effect, even if I know the method, if the delivery was good I have been entertained. It isn't magical any more perhaps, but it is definitely still entertaining.
Yep, that's exactly my point. You can definitely be entertained even if you know how something is done. Magic seems to fall just a little short in that aspect. I can appreciate how skilled a magician is once I know the secret, and even be entertained by the way they present it, but I'm no longer "amazed" by what they're doing. In magic, and every genre of it, there is a level of deception that is involved. With cards, it's a matter of making the audience believe something happened that didn't or making them believe something didn't happen that did. With mentalism and cold reading, the deception lies within making the audience believe you can actually read minds (or the future)...when you actually can't. Magic is not merely about being entertained. It's about being entertained by being fooled. You can no longer be fooled when you know how something works.
I'm not going to sit here and say that a mentalist isn't amazing in their ability, but aside from those mentalists that openly call it what it is (a trick), deception is still involved. The moment you make someone believe something that isn't true, you have deceived them. Therein lies the difference between a magician and just any other entertainer. It is the job of the magician to deceive and to fool by use of deception...and thereby entertain by use of deception. That is why I feel the secret is important to the profession. Without it, we may as well get in front of people and sing and dance or tell jokes. Still entertaining? Yes. Magic? No.
I think in some ways "magic" is being defined here and compared to "emotion." For example, the magic and amazement a child feels when they see something incredible. So, lets take that emotion and use an example... While my daughter is fast asleep, I turn her entire bedroom into Wonderland so that when she wakes up...she wakes up in her favorite movie. She is amazed and overwhelmed by being submerged in this fantasy land. The look in her eyes is truly "magical." However, within a few moments, she begins to realize that the horizon and the hillside where the tea party is happening is nothing more than a matte painting on a piece of cardboard, the sounds...a CD player. Yes, she can still be entertained by the props I've created...but the magic of it is gone. It was only magical and amazing while she was deceived into thinking it was real. Once she knew the truth...those aspects were gone. As magicians it is our goal to keep the little girl from "getting too close to the wall" thus the importance of the secret and the role of deception in magic which separates us from other entertainers. We make the impossible seem possible through the practiced art of deception.