"Profanity on the site" continued...

[rjohnson]

how about the rule is

If its on primtime TV, then you can say it

seems simple enough, the most watched segment of tv says swears or uses "potty" humor (occasionally simpsons/family guy/ southpark (which is on a little later, huh, parentheses in parantheses, interesting) American Dad)

why not that, if its on primtime, you can say it

You serious? So it becomes just one more facet of life where we say, "everyone does it, so what the f***". Doesn't feel good, eh?"

Too much of the good in this life has succumbed to that way of thinking. Our foundation of integrity is being steadily chipped away on and it is getting so weak that less and less can be borne up by it. You see things in TV commercials that would have earned an X or R rating not too long ago. The TV shows are filth and music is just as bad. But it is our right...protected by the Constitution! Sure it is, but does that mean just because you can do something, that you should? Nope. How many of you that are proponents of the potty language have young kids? Honestly? If you do, then chances are you are not saying you want the freedom to be vulgar here.

It is such a slippery slope that once you start down it...you will slide to the bottom and there will be little chance we can get to where we used to be.

I know I am preaching to a lot of people who will not listen. I remember when I was in my teens and 20s. I did not want to listen to people trying to put a cap on my fun, on my good times. Now I am older and I have children...and I would, in no way, ever let them come to this site.

I am not certain why high profile users here have decided to champion the cause. I have to believe it is done simply to buttress the arguments that are pro-site. OK, let's say that they have kids one day, and they are in the park with them on a certain day. Let's say that those kids are the age of many of the users on this forum. Some person comes up and starts talking to the kids and using words like damn, ass, crap and so forth. How would they feel then? I think they would be outraged. Well, it is not OK to do it with the kids of other parents either.

I guess I will back out of this now. It was decided early on, by someone who was very anti-foul language, to allow it here. Now it must be justified rather than having to admit that a mistake might have been made. Did it make this a higher caliber forum?

Hmmmm,

RJ

 

[Goudinov]

...why not that, if its on primtime, you can say it

Would it then be fair to say: if someone does something on primetime, then it's ok for us to do it as well?

 

[Avancer]

You serious? So it becomes just one more facet of life where we say, "everyone does it, so what the f***". Doesn't feel good, eh?"

Too much of the good in this life has succumbed to that way of thinking. Our foundation of integrity is being steadily chipped away on and it is getting so weak that less and less can be borne up by it. You see things in TV commercials that would have earned an X or R rating not too long ago. The TV shows are filth and music is just as bad. But it is our right...protected by the Constitution! Sure it is, but does that mean just because you can do something, that you should? Nope. How many of you that are proponents of the potty language have young kids? Honestly? If you do, then chances are you are not saying you want the freedom to be vulgar here.

It is such a slippery slope that once you start down it...you will slide to the bottom and there will be little chance we can get to where we used to be.

I know I am preaching to a lot of people who will not listen. I remember when I was in my teens and 20s. I did not want to listen to people trying to put a cap on my fun, on my good times. Now I am older and I have children...and I would, in no way, ever let them come to this site.

I am not certain why high profile users here have decided to champion the cause. I have to believe it is done simply to buttress the arguments that are pro-site. OK, let's say that they have kids one day, and they are in the park with them on a certain day. Let's say that those kids are the age of many of the users on this forum. Some person comes up and starts talking to the kids and using words like damn, ass, crap and so forth. How would they feel then? I think they would be outraged. Well, it is not OK to do it with the kids of other parents either.

I guess I will back out of this now. It was decided early on, by someone who was very anti-foul language, to allow it here. Now it must be justified rather than having to admit that a mistake might have been made. Did it make this a higher caliber forum?

Hmmmm,

RJ

I completely agree with this post, but I'd have to say that to me personally, swearing hasn't been an issue around here. Yes there are people who want it to be allowed, well, it can be ended with just a simple "no."

But yes, if swearing was "officially" allowed, which I highly doubt will happen, well, a lot of people would leave and the site integrity would drop like a rock.

What I think we have now is decent, swear words of higher caliber including but not limited to the "f" word and "s" word are not allowed, more minor ones like damn, and hell are and I don't think they're too offensive and aren't used over abundantly.

I think this is the way it should stay, with looks of control over those who try to pass the swear filter or continuously use swearing. But the way it is now, people are given some freedom, even if not really needed, and the place won't fall to the bottom of that slippery slope because there will be control.

 

[OwnerM]

Okay, I was really trying to avoid this thread, but I can't help it anymore, I must rant. Here is my 2 cents, for what it's worth. And I apologize for the long rant.

Right off the top, I am a 44 year old man with an 11 year old son. Yes, he uses profanity and has been as young as eight (that I know of). My ex-wife and I have decided that curse words are a part of life, and so instead of "protecting him" from these words, we are teaching him the appropriate time and way to use them.

I, for one, HATE this whole "we have to protect the children" cry. It is hypnocritial and self-serving. You don't protect your children, you show them how to balance and how to cope.

Someone before said (and forgive my paraphrasing) "The only people who don't swear are people with strict parents." From experience, I can tell you that the opposet is true. Usually, the sticter the parents, the more the child will do the opposet given the chance.

Someone also said (again, forgive my paraphrasing) that using swear words shows people how crude you are. Well, there's the perception that people who never use swear words are stuck-up, self rightous, and no fun.

Perception, people. That's what swear word boil down to. Perception. In fact, there's a very funny book that says the most vial, horrible curse word in the history of time is banned everywhere in the universe except for the one place that they don't know what it means. That word is "Belgium".

Also, it's balance. I feel that it's up to T11 to filter what words they want to filter. If they want to filter the word "Belgium" because they know what it means, they have every right.

So sometimes curse words are not called for, but sometimes, they are. The majority of performace I do is for adults. I sometimes use curse words when I feel it will give a kick to the performace. Does that make me "down a slippery slope" or a crude performer? No, of course not. Just like if I perform for children and adults, I never use swear words. Does that make me stuck-up and self-rightous? Of course not.

People get offended because they choose to. Pure and simple. Words, actions, whatever, is a choice of what you've been taught and what you have decided from that teaching.

The simple truth is words are words. And depending how you use them, they can make a negative impact or a positive one, but that is the choice of the person listening. There are guildlines as to what is acceptable to a particular society, and it's your choice to follow those guidelines. If you don't, you deal with the consequences. However, it is also your choice as to how you react to those words. And you have to understand that no matter how you react, other people may not agree with you.

Perception and balance. That's all it is.

...and as a side, personal note, Jun Fan Hsu, you keep on swearing. Personally, I love it when women swear!

 

[Goudinov]

I, for one, HATE this whole "we have to protect the children" cry. It is hypnocritial and self-serving. You don't protect your children, you show them how to balance and how to cope.

...

People get offended because they choose to. Pure and simple. Words, actions, whatever, is a choice of what you've been taught and what you have decided from that teaching.

I am not hypocritical by not putting my girls into a situation that shields them from cursing. It would only be hypocritical if I cursed & told them hat they can't, but I don't. And it's not self-serving, I am doing it for her benefit, so that she doesn't come across to people sounding like white trash.

Also people do not choose to be offended. It is not their fault if they are offended by something you said without any regard on your part for how they might feel.

"If I curse, and you get offended, then that's your problem, not mine"
now that is self-serving.

 

[MaxDeVill]

This post offends me.. this forum offends me... I'm offended by pretty much everything that happens in the world. Guess the world should bow down and just stop offending me.

I don't know if any of you are old enough to have seen a movie about how the government controlled everything, even color... because color could stir emotions and cause people to fight or be motivated to do something.

We cal go back to good Ol Larry Flint... "If you don't want to see it, then don't go looking for it."

 

[Electron John]

The basic point here is that this is T11's site and if they do not want us to use curse words then that is how it is going to be so stop crying about it. If you can not get your meaning across without using bad language then maybe you need to increase your vocabulary.

I used to be in the USMC so I know how to swear and know when to swear. But I take pride in doing my best to never swear on internet forums for a number of reasons. The use of profanity, in my experience, never does much to increase the validity of anyone’s arguments or help them express their ideas. On the contrary it typically make them look like ignorant hot heads lacking the ability to properly express themselves.

If you feel you have no option and truly must insult someone or something then I have always found that a creative insult without using profanities hits much harder than a cretin's simple and mundane string of curse words.

 

[OwnerM]

"If I curse, and you get offended, then that's your problem, not mine"
now that is self-serving.

I never said "If I curse, and you get offended, then that's your problem, not mine." You didn't read my post. You found what offeneded you most and picked at it. You just proved my point. You chose to be offended. And as the offendie, I will accept my responsiblity of it.

However, what I was saying was that both the offender AND the offendie are the ones who decide how to use/react to the word. In that case, BOTH parties are responsible for however they react. The offender should take care depending on the situtaion by all means and is responsible for the consqueses (as I did state on my post), but the offendie should realize what is a curse to you isn't a curse to others and may be appropriate at the time. (as I said in my post).

I am not hypocritical by not putting my girls into a situation that shields them from cursing. It would only be hypocritical if I cursed & told them hat they can't, but I don't. And it's not self-serving, I am doing it for her benefit, so that she doesn't come across to people sounding like white trash.

No, this is not hypnocritical, but it is not realistic. My ex and I tried to keep curse words away from my son, but eventually he heard them. It's a matter of time. You can't shelter them forever. Think of this: you try to protect you children from hearing such words, but what happens when they do? And they will. No matter what. So if they decide (notice - decide) that they like it, whether it's now or in the future, are you going to tell me your children are suddenly white trash? Of course not. And, they wouldn't be.

Again, this is about perception. Curse words have their place and what we as a society have to realize that there is a balance.

What I meant by being hypnocritial is the whole issue with "We've got to protect the children" as a battle cry. It is used by people who are out to censor things they don't like for religious reasons, and really has nothing to do with children. *shrugs* That has been my experience whenever I've heard it and so it's my humble opinion.

And as a clairification, the rest of my post's points were these:

1. It is T11's decision as to what words for them to censor. Simple. Their site, their rules.

2. It is the responisblity of the curser to take when s/he uses a curse.

3. It is the decision of the cursie to be offended or not. Because it's all about perception.

e.g. If I'm offended by the word "bang". I can call anyone white trash who uses it. I can complain and shield my children from it too. I can boycott movies, write letters to politicians, etc, to stop the word from being used. It's my decision to be offened by it.

It's a two-way dance. Each party has to deal with the consequenses of the action based on their decisions.

Believe it or not, you can choose NOT to be offended by these words. And if you do that, you'll find that those words lose their power.

Finally, it's about balance. There is a time and place for to not use these words, just as there is a time and place to let them ride. Maybe not here, but honestly, there are times to use and not.

And I knew I shouldn't have posted TWO LONG POSTS about this. My apologies, I just needed to vent, and now clarify....

 

[Goudinov]

I never said "If I curse, and you get offended, then that's your problem, not mine." You didn't read my post. You found what offeneded you most and picked at it. You just proved my point. You chose to be offended. And as the offendie, I will accept my responsiblity of it.

I did read your post... three times before replying to it, then you made assumptions about how I constructed my retort. I did not prove your point.

The raising of my children IS realistic. My 8 yr old has encountered curse words, and has made the decision that they are bad, so therefore she doesn't say them. If someone (like a teacher) reports that she's saying them, then my wife & I will deal with it.

I also don't fall into your category of raising a religious battle cry.

I am also not actually offended by cursing, but then I don't get angry or upset by a lot of inconsiderations that vex most people.

My intent of posting this is not to try and change your mind, I would never be so full of myself that I consider anything I say to be life-changing.

No, my reason for posting this is to show you how you don't understand me at all, and that, likewise, I don't understand you. We will not be able to resolve things through this discourse, (Agree to disagree?)

Thanks for the debate take care.. I'll yield the "last word" to you, if you like.

 

[Avancer]

Seems like you guys had a thorough and fair discussion, and it was civil and pretty flame less, maybe people will take example of how to conduct their disagreements in the future based on this.

 

[OwnerM]

Thanks for the debate take care.. I'll yield the "last word" to you, if you like.

Appreciate that.

The only thing I want to clarify was that I didn't mean to insult you personally. I'm sorry if I came across like that.

My statement about "We must protect the children" is simply an opinion, and a general one. I do know that since it's a general opinion, I will be wrong with it in individual situtations.

As to how you raise your children, I take it as we are on opposet sides of the same coin. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me but we can still share magic tricks together. It's all good. And again, if I came across as to insulting with your parenting skill, I did not mean to in anyway. And I apologize if I did.

On the curse words issue, I still say it's a matter of perception. Personally, I won't swear on here, but at the same time if I see the occational "bang", it wouldn't bother me.

I do understand that not everyone reacts to those words like I do.

However, I'm sure we can agree on this:

This is T11's site. They have the right to decide what words to use or not. The final decision is theirs. Period.

Good debating with you! Thanks again for the last word.

*shakes hands with you*

 

[Chicken]

Does anybody notice that we have taken a locked topic, reworded it a little, and began the discussion all over again?

This is going to get closed pretty soon.


-Chicken

 

[The Dark Angel]

Jack, please lock this.

 

[Jun Fan Hsu]

First of all, I truly regret ever re-opening this topic now.

Second. I have not read all of your posts because I just got back from work and I'm about to go have dinner with my husband. But I feel somewhat responsible for many of the negative emotions that I've witnessed by reading some of your posts. So, again, I'm very sorry.

I believe all of you are making valid arguments as far as using profanity. There is a time and a place for everything. In example, when I'm in a room with one of my patients, I never use profanity because my goal is keep my client at ease and in a positive frame of mind in order to help them attain their objective. If I'm in a formal setting with my in-laws, I never use profanity because I'm a newly wed and the time to be open with them will come when they've become more comfortable with my side of the family. When I'm in my temple, I never use profanity. These are only a few examples of when I'll completely refrain from use foul language.

However, I believe when I get to know all of these people better later in the future, we will just start to express ourselves more (except in the temple). That's plain human nature. Self-expression in language, eye contact, sense of humor and so on. And till this day, I have yet to encounter any close friends or family who condemn me for using foul language to share my ideas with them and neither have I ever condemned them.

My point here is.... IT'S ALL ABOUT CONTEXT!!! In religion and philosphy, one of the ultimate questions is, "How do we define who we are?" We define ourselves not through our words but our ACTIONS! All of you in this forum have heard lewd language before. Has it made you a terrible person by listening to such remarks? Are you so naive as to say, "Oh no!!! I never curse at people in my head! Because I'm a virgin (<just kidding)!!" When you're alone and you fall, what do you say? "Oh, I'm a virgin so I"ll say ouch!" No. You'll say "F$@%!!" Then, you'll calm yourself down and then patiently find a way to move on and complete what you have to. When I was on the Wushu team competing for Singapore, my coaches used to curse at us!! Don't coaches curse!!! Of course they do, but they do it in good context. And that brought the best out of all of us because it helped push us to our limits. How about sense of humor. I believe, as long as it does not offend anyone and it makes people laugh, use it!

But, you are all right about one thing. This is Theory 11's site and they have all right to make what rules they want and I have to respect that if I would like to remain a memeber. I promise not to offend anymore virgins..... I MEAN!!!..... people. Sorry, I'm trying to quit the habit. Like they all say, "success is a journey, not a destination!" NOW ALL OF YOU!!! MAN UP AND GET A JOB!!!


JFH

 

[Goudinov]

When you're alone and you fall, what do you say? "Oh, I'm a virgin so I"ll say ouch!" No. You'll say "F$@%!!"

Someone fell on top of me and broke my collar bone in my Tukong class the other day; I did not curse. I have been in pain for well over a week now, and it got worse with the surgery I had on Tuesday. As said before: I stopped cursing when I was around 17. It's not because I have to restrain myself, it's because the curse words never entered my mind.. I am free from that.

I know you're trying to take a light-hearted look at it, and that's fine, and I'm not arguing this anymore... I just wanted to point out to you that, you were incorrect about assessing this portion of your audience.

I'm not saying the following because I want you to act like me. No, you've presented yor side of it, and that you're happy with it, so in turn, I'm just going to explain how I deal with it, and why it makes me happy. I'm not trying to change who you are.

The beautiful thing about not committing acts or behaviors that others find vulgar, rude, or even immoral is never having to apologize for slipping up, or never having to try and justify my behavior to others.

You have to wear a mask of respectability in certain social and religious settings. Some people enjoy that, I guess... It's part of the game, but I enjoy the freedom of being myself and not having to restrain myself in front of clients, co-workers, family or church... because the person that I am at church is the same person I am at all other places.

Again, I'm not trying to preach at you, or tell you how to live... You don't offend me. I just want you to understand that there are greater reasons behind not cursing other than "I'm not supposed to, so I won't". For me, I'm not presented with that dilemma because it's not a part of my nature anymore. I don't lie, drink, steal, smoke, look at porn, nothing, and the reason I don't do those things is because I don't want to... not because some people or society told me that I shouldn't do them.

OK, my shoulder hurts now, and I'm tired of this one-handed typing... need icepack... and percocet... I hope none of you have to go through orthopedic surgery from a broken bone: not on my top ten list of "fun things to do in your own city". On the bright side, my mad skillz at staring at the ceiling are becoming legendary.

 

[Jack The Magician]

Guys,

I'm closing this thread. This topic has already been discussed, and everything that needs to be said has been. So, let's return to magic.

JTM