The pass (dah, dah, daaaahhhh!)

[Shodan]

I'm not a great technician. I mean sure, I can hold my own, but why do something that's technically difficult when there's an easier tool for the job?

More specifically, why invest time and energy in learning how to do a difficult move when an easier one will do? Another martial arts comparison:

Learning to box effectively (punching) is supposed to take a couple of years.

Learning to kick effectively is supposed to take anywhere from 6 to 10 years.

Learning to use Aikido effectively is "supposed" to take 10-20 years (although I tend to think that even this is optomistic for an art that doesn't "do" any kind of real pressure testing...but anyway...).

Obviously there are people who defy the statistics, but in general those figures appear to be fairly accurate. What it means is that a well rounded boxer should have the advantage over a similiarly skilled kicker provided that they have been training an equal length of time. There's nothing wrong with learning how to be a great kicker, but it is at the expense of not being able to fight effectively for a while. So in this case you have two possible goals: do you want mastery of a particular technique, or do you want the outcome of being able to fight? When advising people on self defence, I always tell them that the quickest way to develop useful physical self defence skills is to take judo and boxing classes...and the longer you train the better you get.

Back to the magic...if two "similar" people start out learning card magic from square one, and the first guy devotes his time to mastering the pass (amongst other sleights of course) and the other one is not allowed to go anywhere near the pass, after the same length of time training I submit that the non-pass guy will have the advantage through having spent more time on fundamental techniques. Yeah, the pass guy might be getting the hang of a more challenging sleight, but the non-pass guy should be more solid on the sleights that will allow them to perform.

Is it about performance, or is it about move-mastery for the sake of it?

 

[Tricky Nicky]

Beautiful analogy Shodan! I agree, someone who has just started off in magic shouldn't go anywhere near the pass. For me personally, I didn't start working on the Classic Pass until I had been performing for several months. Plus, I made sure I had practiced it enough before I performed it. I didn't just learn it and use it the same day. I used other controls until I had practiced the pass enough to use it. So putting a huge emphasis on learning the pass right off the bat isn't a good thing, but it's certainly a sleight every card worker should be able to execute, sooner or later.

 

[Austin Fields]

So this was the first video I saw of the pass, ever since I've been astounded at how insanely hard he makes it look, and frown upon my own pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GusduqfKcs8

~Beans

 

[MaxDeVill]

I see both of you guy's points. The pass can be used as a single move that causes an effect to be done if you want. Placing the card in the middle and *bam* its on top without any other moves.

I also see the point that you can control the card using any other method you'd like in order to get it to the top. But as I said, my personal opinion is to get it done quickly, so I know that its completed and to the top.

With every move you have the chance of jacking it up, and although false cuts and false shuffles are easy, I find the pass to be the easiest, quickest, and most effective way to control a card to the top.

I always like to palm the card off the top and give the deck to the spectator to shuffle on most effects, especially something like Indecent.

So I feel you both, and I understand your logic. Guess I just do things differently.

 

[Bizzaro]

The pass is one of those things that started as a good idea and got stuck in a lot of people's throats.

On one side of the fence you have the "good enuff to get by" guys who believe the pass works with the right misidrection so if it's not perfect such is life.

Then we got the "must be invisible on camera" passers. The ones who see the pass as an art unto itself and want to be the best they can be at it.. which is admirable. However, like religion, it's unfair to force their beliefs on you when you do not agree.

So be happy with where you stand on the subject. Don't be an asshat to anyone who doesn't agree or stand up to your passing standards.

(Personally I prefer the pass Fearson used on his "Magically Delicious" video. He didn't teach it... you just have to watch carefully.)

 

[MaxDeVill]

Wow, who knew that a single sleight would cause so much controversy and discussion?

I am a firm believer in misdirection during the pass, it makes it easier to accomplish and due to the nature of the move, it is fast... and to be honest, I don't think I'll ever be able to have it completely invisible on camera. I think I'm just not that dexterous.

 

[conjure_pitch]

I prefer to use the pass without any false cuts or shuffles afterwards. In the middle, bam, to the top.

But I am not even going to begin thinking I'm good enough to question other magicians method.

 

[Shodan]

I think the pass has been seriously over-hyped, and that is why it causes so much "controversy and discussion". So let me state:

If you've taken the time to perfect it, then why not use it?

The point is that people are trying to learn it too early on in their careers - because of the hype/mystique that surrounds it, courtesy of our friends over at Ellusionist.

"and in that move...it was done..."

I guess my issue is that often it strikes me as using a boulder to crush an ant. There are loads of "*bam* on top" controls of varying degrees of difficulty aside from the pass. Controlling to the bottom is often easier, just as effective - and in some circumstances the better choice for palming too, if the you're comfortable with a gambler's cop. The pass can get so much done - as illustrated in one of my previous posts - that I wouldn't want to use it just as a control. And not just because its inefficient/inelegant/whatever, but because if I don't want to over-use any one sleight - and so I'll reserve it for when it can create maximum mayhem

Max - have you never considered using a crimp for your spectator shuffle sequence?

 

[MaxDeVill]

I agree that Ellusionist has put a large emphasis on the pass, I mean one of their video's is basically dedicated to it, Ninja 1 or 2, I can't remember... and it does deserve its own DVD due to the complexity of the move and how difficult it is to actually pull off.

I do use a crimp for spectator shuffles on occasion, if the effect would be better with it. I do a lot of "card to impossible place" routines tho, and getting it out of the deck fast is how I accomplish most of them.

I fully agree that younger magicians get too concentrated on mastering the pass. There are tons of other mechanics that you can do in order to accomplish the same thing and if you learn 10 ways to control a card as opposed to perfecting the pass, you'll be better off.

But you have to admit, having the card where you want it right away has its perks.

 

[Shodan]

...which is why I like the drop addition control and the spread cull so much!

That's also fair enough on the impossible location techniques as well. I think all in all we're pretty much on the same page...and it only took three pages of bitter arguing to realise it!

 

[Shodan]

There are tons of other mechanics that you can do in order to accomplish the same thing and if you learn 10 ways to control a card as opposed to perfecting the pass, you'll be better off.QUOTE]

How 10 sleights which all accomplish different things? Control to top, bottom, false shuffle, false cut, changes, switches, multiple shifts, false counts, displays...etc etc.

 

[MaxDeVill]

True, but at least it was the most interesting and intense discussion I've seen on this board yet. I'm just happy that there is finally an outlet to discuss these things without having Nazi mods ruin all the fun.

 

[Shodan]

It's good to be able to really get stuck in to something, for sure.

 

[PjPinsonnault]

I'm a page behind, so bear with me as I catch up.

Shodan, your point about learning a move for the move's sake is well put and taken, and I think Bizarro hit the nail on the head with the example of the "video passers." If you plan to never use it, why bother learning it?

I think the trouble with other moves is falling into the "move junky" mentality. I've seen guys in the club meetings that want so many moves to do the same thing that they're lousy at all of them. In my opinion, a good double is just as demanding as a convincing pass and should take at least as much dedication. Yet I see more people working on their pass than their double.

Like in martial arts, basics in magic seem to bore magicians once they've learned a few and practices a little. But if you watch, say, the UFC, a guy like Randy Couture can keep winning at 45 years old because he has mastered his basics and he fights guys who figure youth will be their ace in the hole. I think we could all take a lesson from Randy in this regard.

Back to the pass. To me, it's a matter of choice. Sleights are like tools in a tool box, and as long as you have the right tools for the tasks at hand, and the tools suit you, then there's no problem.

Nice thread everyone.

Pj

 

[Shodan]

The UFC as an analogy for card magic...rock on!

 

[Tricky Nicky]

This has been quite an exciting discussion. I really liked Bizarro's points. Great analogy Pj!

 

[Glenn West]

. . .

Magicians catch a flash, and they know you've done a pass. Laypeople see a flicker of something, and they dismiss it if they consider it unimportant. And whatever you consider unimportant...so do they. . . .
Cheers,
David

Sorry to edit down your post, but I have to disagree with you here. If a layman sees SOMETHING, they know you did something. they won't know WHAT, but all they need to know is that you did something, and for them that's enough.

This is generally my problem with a pass done with no misdirection. Spectators will see that something was done.

 

[Shodan]

I understand what you're saying, and certainly in many instances you are correct. I was actually thinking of my experiences with the riffle pass at the time - there is a tell-tale break between the transposition of the packets and the riffle when I do it, which to magicians is a dead giveaway. However, I have made a point of demonstrating the technique to my more knowledgeable and observant "test spectators" - the group of people who are in on a lot of my magic- and they don't believe that I'm doing what it is that I'm actually doing. Just looks like a riffle from the centre of the deck to them. That's what I mean about the difference between a magician's perspective and a layperson's perspective.

Also, dismissing something as unimportant can get you a long way - attitude plays a huge part. I've managed to get away with some almighty flashes right out in the open and they've just sailed by.