Copying someone's routine or not?

[Magicator]

Heys guys +)

I was wondering if it would be wrong to have a card manipulation routine that is very similar to some of these guys routine. Miika won second place my routine is very similar. ONLY the card manipulation is similar. My music is different and I use different tricks and routines added on. I'll probably use two different types of music.

Would I have to credit the composer or what? I am trying to change it a little but it's still very similar.

I just want to make sure i'm on the safe side?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOfw4XcPk3U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEZ3TBmS_r0

I mean, i wont use the same style as these guys, it's just the routine of the cards.

Please let me know if it's okay!!!

 

[frankfogg]

It's really hard to have a different manipulation routine as they all usually consist of the same stages/parts.

Of course, if you copy the routine move for move, yes; that is stealing.

You want to make it your own. Throw in some personality, a kicker ending, a gag here or there.

You can borrow and draw information from the routines, but taking the move exaclty and setting it to different music...that's stealing.

 

[copperfield 14]

nah it's okay. Do whatever you want.

 

[wilfred]

here's another question:
if we purchase a magic dvd, is it ethical to copy the routines exactly the way it's performed and taught by the creator?

 

[Dylan P.]

Put it this way. In order not to infringe someone else's idea there must be at least a 30% change. (I learned that in my cartooning class.) So all you really have to do is maybe add your own ending. I small joke, as if you screwed up, and maybe an original trick or move. Not that hard. Have fun.

 

[praetoritevong]

Heys guys +)

I was wondering if it would be wrong to have a card manipulation routine that is very similar to some of these guys routine. Miika won second place my routine is very similar. ONLY the card manipulation is similar. My music is different and I use different tricks and routines added on. I'll probably use two different types of music.

Would I have to credit the composer or what? I am trying to change it a little but it's still very similar.

I just want to make sure i'm on the safe side?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOfw4XcPk3U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEZ3TBmS_r0

I mean, i wont use the same style as these guys, it's just the routine of the cards.

Please let me know if it's okay!!!

I don't think it's wrong to have a routine that's similar, as long as it's not the routine move for move; it should obviously incorporate you, and your own ideas, and it sounds like you've done that. As for a music, it'd only be an issue if it was broadcast, for example on TV, radio, etc. For a school show or something, it doesn't really matter. Frankfogg is right on this one.

here's another question:
if we purchase a magic dvd, is it ethical to copy the routines exactly the way it's performed and taught by the creator?

Ethically, it's fine - it's a completely different thing to what the thread starter is asking; the routines on the magic DVD are being marketed for exactly that, so that they can teach them, people will perform them, and hence the artist will make money. From a purely magical standpoint, that's not necessarily a good idea though, unless you're just starting out. The presentation will not necessarily suit some performers, to varying degrees, and in fact may not suit most performers at all no matter how it is changed.

Still, it is best to change routines based on who you are; few people could pull off a David Blaine type performance, just as you or I would have different performing styles, and it is unlikely either of us could replicate the other if we are looking for the best possible reaction towards our magic. That said, reactions are not completely presentation, but it does form a very important facet.

Put it this way. In order not to infringe someone else's idea there must be at least a 30% change. (I learned that in my cartooning class.) So all you really have to do is maybe add your own ending. I small joke, as if you screwed up, and maybe an original trick or move. Not that hard. Have fun.

This is where the difficulty comes in with manipulation routines. There are only so many elements, and it is quite possible to come up with the same routine in a different way. It's hard to judge what 30% is, I think that's unreasonable in a manipulation routine. How do you even begin to define an idea? With Miika come up with the moves? Probably not. Did he come up with his routine? Yes. Is it possible to make up this entire routine separately? Yes. Can you define what 30% of his routine is? Not accurately or satisfactorily. What, then, belongs to Miika - how do we define "his" ideas? In this case I think this reasoning is inadequate at best.

IMO stick with Frank's advice - as long as it's not move for move, with your own stuff, it's fine.

 

[Brad Henderson]

First, if you buy something (and that person had the authority to sell it) you may use it as you wish (within any restrictions they may have imposed).

Here's the other side of the coin:

If it is not in print, and you have not received permission to use it - it is not yours to use.

There are only 12 notes in the chromatic scale and we are at no loss for melodies. Are you really telling me that will all of the work done in the field of manipulation, you cannot possibly come up with something not lifted from a youtube video?

Here's a suggestion: List 10 great manipulators. Here are two stipulations: They all have to be dead, and none can be Channing Pollack or Cardini.

What, don't know 10 manipulators?

Well, that might be part of the problem. Until you start digging, then the only thing you HAVE to rely on his copying others.

Here's my rule of thumb: If you feel that what you are doing sets yourself apart from the work of others, it is ethically sound. If you feel that what you are doing directs your work more closely to that of others, then you are on a dangerous path.

But here's the answer that solves everything: Ask them.

See a routine you like? Perfect. Email the guy or gal who posted it and ask them if you can do it. If they say yes, great. If they say no, back off.

What, you would feel weird asking them?

Well, that says something too, doesn't it?

Brad Henderson

p.s. John FIsher has an amazing chapter on the history of manipulation in his Cardini book. Also, any would be manipulator should try and watch the films of Buckley. Oh me, oh my.