Controversies in Magic

Dec 27, 2008
76
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tokyoUW, my start off by saying, any thing you might have said that would hav made me agree with you was completely blown out of the water when you started swearing. swearing in of itself is a sign of stupidity. secondly i do not agree that magic is always bad to expose, only the type where someone completely identifiable made it.......not a double lift. also persay that the audiance member that watched the show and looked up the magic and became a magician. thats exactly what happened to me. i don't look at tutorials anymore now that i know that sometimes the people that made them actually sell them. also there is almost no possible way that a layman could know that magicians do that. lastly, when you say that anyone who agrees with him is lower than anyone who doesn't. you my good sir are the one being ignorant and stupid.

-jake
 
Dec 27, 2008
76
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steerpike, may i just say that you, my goodsir took the words out of my brain through my mouth and printed them onto your post. the way that you wrote it out was almost inspiring in a weird way. i agree 100% with what you say.

ask yourself this everyone.
-how can such a small community harbor so much hate and disrespect?
-humbled - jake
 
Dec 27, 2008
76
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hello tokyoUW, if the magicians standards were higher when you were you younger, there manners and selfrestraint certainly weren't. don't get angry and swear it will only give you the disrespect you deserve for doing it . no glory.
-jake
 
Ok.. Now That I read all of.. this.. my real random personality will show...
First of all... WOW!! People sure can type a lot of words...
Second of all, Yeah, Now that I think about it, the Puzzle analogy was a bad choice of words, I do like to push amazement, but I also enjoy pushing people's minds to a limit of "That's Impossible, and yet he did it.." and then they go home and think about the paradox.
Next.. I like how some people think deep into my screen name, so I will make the long story short, Its Limited Lifetime Warranty Which is a sticker on pretty much Every Gibson Guitar (I Play guitar and I'm a huge Gibson Fan)
Next, yeah My inability to spell exposure... My mac does auto spell check and "Exposer" is a real word I guess..
More Randomnessess: Don't blame my Mac... The Mac didn't do anything to you....
And Finally, When I said this was a touchy subject... I didn't realize How touchy it was for some. I'm apologize if I offended anyone, and my intentions weren't to make it seem like I wanted to ignore exposure completely, Just find a practical solution...
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
35
Raleigh, NC
Before I start, a few things.

lmtdlifetimewrnt said:
Next, yeah My inability to spell exposure... My mac does auto spell check and "Exposer" is a real word I guess..
Click Me for Response.
Not getting on you, I just like the video and think it applies. It's also humorous and everyone loves humor. If you don't already read books for fun you should start. It'll help expand your vocabulary, along with your knowledge, neither of which are terrible things to improve.


tokyoUW, my start off by saying, any thing you might have said that would hav made me agree with you was completely blown out of the water when you started swearing. swearing in of itself is a sign of stupidity.
-jake

That is actually a terrible reason to disagree with someone and is an untrue opinion. Brilliant minds often use cuss words to drive points home. If I want someone to pay attention I can swear and get their attention; there is no point in being proper if no one is listening to what you have to say.

However, 'my start off by saying' is in no way correct and 'would hav made' has in fact made you look careless, if not ignorant. I would like to know your reasons for connecting swearing and stupidity, as their is no correlation between the two.


Onto Exposure.

It's no secret that taking something you did not create and putting it out for everyone to learn is wrong. The people who do this are just looking for attention, much like when they cut their own wrists. Okay, so cutting and exposing are not directly related as it turns out; but the comparison still stands. /sarcasm

It's sad to see the people who take effects and run the DVD through once, only to then get out their 20 dollar cameras and explain how to do it. It's worse when they get the satisfaction of being called magicians. It's sickening.

Magicians who put their own secrets out for sale have tested their material and usually put a lot of work into them. They hold the right to write a book or produce a DVD exposing their secrets. Everybody has to eat right? Just like I have the right to keep my secrets to myself, both magic related and private.

It's pretty damn sad to see something as useful as the internet being used to hurt the magic industry. It's a shame. It's something little can be done about, though. I voice opinions to most of the people who do expose magic in hopes they might find respect for the keeping of secrets.

The problem with explaining respect to people who blatantly disrespect people:

Respect doesn't just happen, it has to be learned. And even then respect is only given to those seen as worthy of it. If I think someone is a sucker for telling me a secret, I will use it against them. If I respect them for trusting me with their secret, no one will even know that there is a secret.

And because I can't decide which way sounds better, I'll put the other wording for further clarification.

Some people buy a secret and think it is their duty to keep it a secret. Others cross their fingers and listen in just long enough to be able to tell someone else what they just learned.


-Rik

PS.
I'm apologize if I offended anyone

You should never apologize for offending someone. Too many people are passive aggressive these days. Express your opinion, make sure you word it in a way that there is no confusion next time, and stand by it. Steerpike and Morgician would be the top examples of this. Off the top of my head that is.
 
Your post seems to attack two seperate points and they aren't necessarly related.

Most of the working pro's that I've ever known, and I know a lot of them, don't really seem to fight over the presentation. Most of the time we're just glad to see that others have a paying gig. Usually. There will always be the exception to the rule.

It isn't the working (key word: "working") pro's that you'll see sitting around a round table with a deck of cards in hand inside a smoke choked club bickering about the current state of magic and who has the latest and most "natural" second deal on the market. Those people I call "enthusiasts". Sure they have skills, knowledge about technique, and performers from days gone by and current times, AND many of them are able to perform if given half a chance. They usually just don't perform on a regular bases.

As for revealing magic. That's a tough one. Sure it kills the magic, but then again just how many ways IS there to do an ambitious card anyways? One the one hand the Masked Magician (Valinteno) has revealed some of the inner most secrets of magic on national television since the mid 90's. It has caused international debate, and many upset feelings. There are magicians within the diffrent rings that would have him killed for his "crimes". Sure, he broke a code of silence, but was it really all THAT bad? Is it any diffrent than Houdini during his days exposing the mediums and other magicians? How quickly we forget just how blood thirsty our forfathers in the arts were. On the other hand when you consider his work you have to realize that he's inspired and invigorated a new generation of magicians who may not have picked up the art any other way. Is it really wrong of him then should we get another Lance Burton from it? I don't really know. I usually just stay away from topics like this.

Thats just my two cents.
 
Sep 26, 2007
591
5
Tokyo, Japan
hello tokyoUW, if the magicians standards were higher when you were you younger, there manners and selfrestraint certainly weren't. don't get angry and swear it will only give you the disrespect you deserve for doing it . no glory.
-jake


I might have used to agree with you. However, a big flaw in your statement is, you assume I am looking for glory / recognition in the first place. Actually no, and sometimes, especially now a days, the only way to get a valid point accross, is to be as blunt as you can. The more gentle coddling we do for people, the more we hurt them.

I used to teach Karate, a tournament prep class. There were some students who were interested in competing that would join the class new. Some of them would be a bit behind and not as prepared, and I would let them know this via some advice, and small unofficial meetings with the parents, and then let them know I would do everything I could to help prepare them. A lot of the time, this really encouraged them to try harder. However.... occasionally, there would be a disrespectful student that didn't agree that they were not ready for competition (I am talking about full contact here...) and go on to completely ignore advice/ feedback/ warnings, etc... Ultimately, it is their choice, and they will go through with it if they really want to. But if I were to coddle them and be all like, "its ok, what you are doing is a bit off, but doing ok... bla bla bla..." I would be adding to the pain that will occur by not telling it how it really was. Sometimes you have to strait up and tell them, "you are not ready, you are going to get hurt."

Although this is not a perfectly in line analogy, it is the same thing, and although I may not possess the same level of insight for magic as I did with fighting, the amount of youtube crap out there, and the even worse phenomenon of those people actually thinking they are good, even ignoring the really well written constructive criticism... yeah... honestly, the only way that would actually really get into their brains would be to walk up to them and punch them. Too bad that technology is not yet invented to allow me to do that from my home PC.

I do apologize for the cussing however via little $$ and %'#)=" marks. That is usually not my style.
 
I do apologize for the cussing however via little $$ and %'#)=" marks. That is usually not my style.

Please for the love of what ever god you hold holy forgive me for being a smart elic here, but I have to point out that you -are- communicating through writen text. I understand from your own words that swearing in posts like this isn't normally your style. Unlike speach, where profanity may be difficult to filter out due to the spontaniousness of speach patterns and personal tendency you DO have the luxury of re-reading your post any number of times prior to hitting the reply/send button, and further have the ability to edit your post at any time, for any reason. Content usually being one of the better.

Sorry for playing devils advocate on this one... but just wanted to point that out.
 
Sep 26, 2007
591
5
Tokyo, Japan
Please for the love of what ever god you hold holy forgive me for being a smart elic here, but I have to point out that you -are- communicating through writen text. I understand from your own words that swearing in posts like this isn't normally your style. Unlike speach, where profanity may be difficult to filter out due to the spontaniousness of speach patterns and personal tendency you DO have the luxury of re-reading your post any number of times prior to hitting the reply/send button, and further have the ability to edit your post at any time, for any reason. Content usually being one of the better.

Sorry for playing devils advocate on this one... but just wanted to point that out.

What I was trying to say was that, cussing in general is not my style (both written text and actual speach). Though sometimes, through heated debates and sleep depravation, unwaranted words do from time to time, find their way into the conversation. However, that being said, because it it not to my liking to cuss or use profanity, blasphemy etc... when I do use those words in writing, I do not spell them out in their full. Kind of a mental thing, idk.
 
Mar 29, 2008
882
3
I missed this paragraph the first time around.

I would say that also has to do with the fact that people under 18 are narcissistic dimwits. No one has their act together before their mid- to late-20's. But they all certainly think they do. And the younger they are, the more violently they'll react to being told they're wrong.

This has its ties to exposure, of course. Though I'm going to wait 24 hours before I expound on that. I want to see how much hate mail I get for my comments today before I throw another log on the fire.

Actually, I condensed the story...the son corrected Mr. James, then his father was the one to tell him off. Either way - a miseducation exists on fact vesus the urban legend of magic history/titles.
 
Dec 27, 2008
76
0
That is actually a terrible reason to disagree with someone and is an untrue opinion. Brilliant minds often use cuss words to drive points home. If I want someone to pay attention I can swear and get their attention; there is no point in being proper if no one is listening to what you have to say. - if you have to swear to get a point across then you do not know how to gain someones respect. it's the emotions behind the words that make them powerful, not the words. also, thank you tokyoUW for clearing things up.
lastly, to the person who said that anyone under the age of 20 is a narcissistic dimwit is .................................................................wrong. it would seem that the person who made this post wasn't exactly thinking very much. they contradict themselves by putting up a post saying that no matter what other people think there about to go and post up another post of how all of the young knowledgeless people are wrong. when it would seem that according to their own rules, is exactly what someone under the age of 20 would do. but i guess us young people just don't know anything? next time think before you judge.
-jake
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
Actually, I condensed the story...the son corrected Mr. James, then his father was the one to tell him off. Either way - a miseducation exists on fact vesus the urban legend of magic history/titles.

I never understood why some call it VooDoo card. You're not going any Voodoo to the card. The card gets magically warped by you pushing it out the other end.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
lastly, to the person who said that anyone under the age of 20 is a narcissistic dimwit is .................................................................wrong. it would seem that the person who made this post wasn't exactly thinking very much. they contradict themselves by putting up a post saying that no matter what other people think there about to go and post up another post of how all of the young knowledgeless people are wrong. when it would seem that according to their own rules, is exactly what someone under the age of 20 would do. but i guess us young people just don't know anything? next time think before you judge.
-jake

Part of being young is being arrogant and ignorant. Anyone who claims differently was never a child. I never said that they don't know anything, just that in their arrogance, children hate being corrected. And when you're young and green, ignorance comes with the territory.

I challenge you to name me one person you know personally who had their life together in their teens.

Before you accuse me of not thinking, perhaps you should exercise a little critical thinking of your own.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
That is actually a terrible reason to disagree with someone and is an untrue opinion. Brilliant minds often use cuss words to drive points home. If I want someone to pay attention I can swear and get their attention; there is no point in being proper if no one is listening to what you have to say. - if you have to swear to get a point across then you do not know how to gain someones respect. it's the emotions behind the words that make them powerful, not the words. also, thank you tokyoUW for clearing things up.
lastly, to the person who said that anyone under the age of 20 is a narcissistic dimwit is .................................................................wrong. it would seem that the person who made this post wasn't exactly thinking very much. they contradict themselves by putting up a post saying that no matter what other people think there about to go and post up another post of how all of the young knowledgeless people are wrong. when it would seem that according to their own rules, is exactly what someone under the age of 20 would do. but i guess us young people just don't know anything? next time think before you judge.
-jake

Most people generally don't have their act together till their late 20's to early 30's. This has been proven over the years by many things. In your teens, you are young and don't have many bills to pay and you might work as the manager at a fast food place. Once you get older, you start realize that if you want to make it in life. You have to stop working crappy jobs and get things straight. This takes time. For most people it takes around a few years. So by the time they are 28-31 they're already financially OK and know what life as in store for them. Now this doesn't always happen with people. There are sadly people out there that never mature and never get their act together.

And yes, The older you get (for some), the smarter you get. With Age comes Wisdom.
 

Lex

Dec 18, 2007
51
0
50
Chicago, IL
lastly, to the person who said that anyone under the age of 20 is a narcissistic dimwit is .................................................................wrong. it would seem that the person who made this post wasn't exactly thinking very much. they contradict themselves by putting up a post saying that no matter what other people think there about to go and post up another post of how all of the young knowledgeless people are wrong. when it would seem that according to their own rules, is exactly what someone under the age of 20 would do.

And in a bizarre way, taking the bait more or less proves his point. It's like that Carly Simon song: "You're so vain/I bet you think this song is about you."

Well played, Steerpike.

(So, is this exposure, explaining the trick this way? Ayup, probably so. But the mechanism is as important as the effect here.)

I do have more thoughts on this, but it seems more relevant to the thread in Cerca Trova, so I'll post it there.
 
Dec 27, 2008
76
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i guess all i don't understand is why you think teens argue for their cause more than older people. i mean look at all of you, your arguing the opposit way with no reason than completely prejudiced opinions. and yes i could name people who have their "act" together.
so, i guess i'm not disagreeing with you about people under 20 arguing over what they think.
i just fail to see how you are doing anything different. and as to "taking the bait" i'm only defending what i see as right. this is not about me, it's about the entire teen comunity. are you saying that whenever anyone defends what they think is right they autamatically are egotisticle and self absorbed. and yes i do think you should think more.
-jake
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
35
Raleigh, NC
it's the emotions behind the words that make them powerful, not the words.

So, you're proving my point now? It doesn't matter which words you use, it's how you use them.

Cuss words are only 'bad' because people say they are, and only offend the people who choose to be offended by them.

With that said, the notion that someone using cuss words is less intelligent than you or anyone else is absurd.

if you have to swear to get a point across then you do not know how to gain someones respect.

Respect and Attention are two completely different things. Just because someone will listen to you doesn't mean they respect you.

I have friends of whom I respect and have their respect and when I want their attention I will often call them names that are frowned upon in 'civilized conversation'. They don't respect me any more or any less by the words coming out of my mouth, I earned their respect by being their for them when they needed me and kept it by not doing anything to damage that.

Respect is earned through who you are, not by how you express your opinions.

-------

I think Lao-tzu said it best on the other matter being discussed.

The more you know, the less you understand.

As you get older you learn about what is going on around you. The more you learn, the more you come to realize you don't know as much as you think.

Socrates took it so far as to say
"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

------

I like the way you think...

It was right after my post, if it was to me, thanks. If not, good work someone else -claps-.

I however don't enjoy the way I think, it keeps me up at night...



-Rik
 
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