"Segregation" in the Magic Community

[Zac Eckstein]

Dear praetoritevong,

You are a pimp.

Sincerely,
- Zac

 

[saborfang17]

Keep avoiding having to think, my friend.

+1 Like.

(I'm not a facebook fan or a geek, so that shows just how good he got you there..)

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Read my above post. In brief, it is due to the nature of mentalism, and its perception by audiences that necessitates a different approach.



Unfortunately, you may have used the word segregation, but a large part of your post deals with categorisation - with the exception of a waffly explanation of why hating is bad.



You are coming across as a small child. You essentially said that you will not accept anyone's view that is contrary to yours. If you cannot see the problem with this, then I'm happy to ignore this thread from now on and dismiss you as an unimportant mediocrity. If, on the other hand, you are posting because you have a genuine passion for the art, then it is in no-one's interest to close yourself off from other perspectives. So my question is...

Why?

Are you so afraid of being wrong? Or is it simply that you cannot consider an alternate point of view? Either way, your attitude is one of childish ignorance. Why even bother posting, if you're not willing to consider any other opinions?

And how is saying "I do not care about anyone else's opinion if they disagree with me" any different from "I hate Ellusionist (and I do not care about anyone else's opinion to the contrary)"? It's not. You are nothing more than a hypocrite with a cardboard box to stand on.

It is also riddled with logical fallacies.

Just because someone is not Dai Vernon does not mean that they are not correct. I am nobody in the magical community - but it doesn't mean that everything I say is wrong.

You reply to this thread saying this, that means you violated my last line from the OP, but did I hold it against you? No, absolutly not. There are no wrong side in an opinion my friend. Please elaborate why you are so against my thread.

Your saying my attitude is ignorance and childish, please elaborate more why you say that. I would love to know you think and how you judge people.

 

[saborfang17]

You reply to this thread saying this, that means you violated my last line from the OP, but did I hold it against you? No, absolutly not. There are no wrong side in an opinion my friend. Please elaborate why you are so against my thread.

Your saying my attitude is ignorance and childish, please elaborate more why you say that. I would love to know you think and how you judge people.

-1 Like.

Anyways, segregation isn't always bad. And it isn't technically segregation. They're separated, but not completely. Look at t11's forums for example. There's the cardistry section, then the card magic section, then the coin magic section. Yet they're all on one forum? You're saying that labels are bad. Your name is Bob. My name is Larry. Oh, God, no! We're named differently, why is it such a bad thing?

...

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Keep avoiding having to think, my friend.

they you are as good as a plant. There are people who accomplish good/bad things , there are people who are useless.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Dear praetoritevong,

You are a pimp.

Sincerely,
- Zac

IDK if thats a good thing to do.

 

[AndrewJ]

Okay. I failed to cut straight to the point.

Internet: Less mature individuals mouthing off to prove how amazing they are.

Real world: Different place.

There are egos in the real world. Don't get me wrong. But this segregation you speak of? I'd call it more a byproduct of the Internet and not so much any actual occurrence. This comes from personal experience in ring meetings, and over two decades of networked-computer communications.

It's trash talk behind a curtain of anonymity, and not a whole lot more.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

-1 Like.

(word count)

groundbreaking supporter here.

 

[saborfang17]

groundbreaking supporter here.

You quoted me too early. I had more to say. And you're welcome, by the way. Just admit it's not a bad thing and you're looking at it in a kind of extreme-ish and somewhat ignorant way and get on with life.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

I think the OP means his post well. I hope that it just came across wrong. Nonetheless, I also more or less agree with what TheatreHead is saying.

Yes, there is a lot of segregation. Yes, it sometimes hurts magic. But there are good, practical reasons why it occurs.

Taking for example the separation between magic and mentalism, yes, there is often an almost arrogant rift between the two elements. But the truth is that they are completely different to perform, as any serious mentalist would realise. This rift is a practical way of attempting to convey the size of this difference. What we have is a significant portion of magicians thinking that they are performing mentalism, when in reality they perform nothing but tricks. And the problem is this is that not only it is self-delusional, it weakens what you perform. You must understand the art before you can perform it. That is why this rift occurs. Mentalists are not performing magic. Although its roots are one and the same, the performance of mentalism, and therefore its perception, is wholly separate, and because of this, it must remain separate as a category.

To take one more example about magic companies, two companies I have criticised lately are Magic Makers (who regularly rip off products) and Hank Lee (who is perhaps the worst stocked "big" magic shop I've seen). Why be critical? The reality is that we live in a consumer driven world. A lot of magic shops are simply there to make a quick buck. One of my local brick and mortar ones is exactly like that. Criticism is a valid way to communicate a dealer's unethical and or disappointing aspects. Criticism is what brought the whole LJ discussion up on the board (which, although I'm prepared to eat my words on this, I find it highly likely that LJ will ever appear to face the music). Simple fact is, we should not be supportive of such dealers.

Since your post uses Ellusionist as an example, I will address that briefly. Many people do bash E. Yes, it's true. They also bash T11. But don't confuse bashing with criticism - there are many valid criticisms. Taking E for example, one sometimes hears that their communities are filled with newcomers to the magical world. I think this is a valid observation - valid too of T11. I count myself amongst these newcomers. I certainly don't blame people for that observation. The truth is, certain trends in the youth movement today have caused some pros cause for concern. You can't blame them for stepping back from the rush of newcomers, and opt instead only to teach those who are most gifted.

More to the point, one often hears criticism about E products. On the whole, I certainly agree. I consider Kard Klub the only useful E DVD I ever bought, because it dealt with presentation and things like timing - not just the secret of the trick. But I have reservations even about that. In it, Brad states that he prefers to approach spectators looking like an amateur so they expect less of him. I cannot express how ridiculous I find this advice. Why would you disadvantage yourself like that? Sure, people like Lennart Green make it work - but how many people are Lennart Green, and why would you give advice applicable only to 1 in 1000000 people? I also disagree with his philosophy on Ninja 1 about the pass. Showing people how the pass is done? I think that's absurd. The moment you talk about technique, much less actually show them technique, you are no longer performing magic. You may well still impress them - but not with magic. You can also impress them with juggling 6 balls simultaneously, or doing a backflip. Magic has lost what is so special about it - wonder.

I also disagree not only with Brad's philosophy on magic, but some of the way their products teach magic. When I say "I", I am implying here than many people share these (in my view) legitimate criticisms as well. E is poised in a very important part of the market - it is perhaps the biggest online magic store. Which means that it attracts a very high percentage of its profits from newbies. In other words, it has a key position in determining how that individual will go about exploring magic. The wrong choice will set them back a year or two. E would have a lot less criticisms if it focussed on teaching newcomers to the art about magic in the way for example that the Tarbell Course does. Unfortunately, the way that E is set up as a company (this is not a criticism per se, merely an observation based on the fact that they are a company) means that the very nature of their business is tempting people with products. Some products are better than others, and they run the gamut in terms of quality. But what it does do is mislead the newbie magician, and hinders their learning by feeding them tricks - which seems to be the order of the day in many of their DVDs - they teach you tricks, rather than how to be a magician. With the exception of Kard Klub, this is true of every E DVD I own.

I will stop here, because this post is not meant to be a critique of Ellusionist. I simply want to mention that your categorisation of criticism of E as exaggerated and baseless "crap" is sometimes true, but also, usually, "crap". There's more to it than you might realise. And whilst segregation does indeed have some downsides, in reality, there are a lot of practical benefits for dividing magicians from mentalists, companies from companies, and so forth.

Actually, I've written nothing that TheatreHead hasn't already written, so in closing, go back to his post.

Dude, you always break it down so well. What I think is that magicians are constantly in competition. Even while they're friends. If you have a friend that does the "smack the deck" and a card is left. You do the "stab the deck" and a card is left. If we ALL worked together on magic everyone would know it all. And we all hate a know it all.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Okay. I failed to cut straight to the point.

Internet: Less mature individuals mouthing off to prove how amazing they are.

Real world: Different place.

There are egos in the real world. Don't get me wrong. But this segregation you speak of? I'd call it more a byproduct of the Internet and not so much any actual occurrence. This comes from personal experience in ring meetings, and over two decades of networked-computer communications.

It's trash talk behind a curtain of anonymity, and not a whole lot more.

Another one to judge others. I meant every words in this thread. I guess it hard to unite everyone's mind. I am here is to attempt to help the community, but I guess I have a long way to go, if I want to achieve this task.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

thats how life works. There are people who pass, there are people who fail, and others will lie in between.

 

[Zac Eckstein]

You ask for only opinions you like. News flash, people have an opinion you don't agree with! Live with it, let the thread die.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

I have blue eyes... Do I pass? No need to be good at magic. I also have blonde hair. Do you know Jazz Aces? That is one of the staples of card magic.

 

[nexusmagic]

I agree with the points given thus far. It really isn't segregation but categorization. It is necessary so that you can focus on certain disciplines under the umbrella of magic. Why do I bash websites? Why it is simple really, other then the fact I thoroughly enjoy getting a reaction out of people, it is generally true and my opinion.

 

[TheatreHead]

We are magician, not XCMer, not coin guy, not card guy, and not a purest. Stop diving the art, stop hating each other, it is time to come back together and form "MAGIC" as it meant to be.

SEGREGATION, is what am I talking about (those people who say I hate to be this or that). Did not I say anything against categorization, please do not put words in my mouth (love it how not all people think about that they read and some misunderstood the passage).

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your initial post made it look like you wanted to do away with all forms of categorization. Am I wrong?

Prae man, we should meet up in Sydney.

 

[TheatreHead]

I have blue eyes... Do I pass? No need to be good at magic. I also have blonde hair. Do you know Jazz Aces? That is one of the staples of card magic.

Hahaha. I really appreciate and enjoy your input.

 

[tokyoUW]

To the OP... you need to learn the difference between an ideal perfect world, a delusion, and reality. What you are speaking of, doesn't even really fall into "an idea perfect world," and it is very far from reality.

Your reply to the people who say they hate to mix xcm with close-up card work is to learn to stop hating and to share, and to teach each other bla bla bla. But in actuality, mixing xcm with your card work can turn a perfectly good close-up routine into crap. That is not "hating xcm", it is realizing that the two don't mix well in the professional world of magic.

It would be like if I am hired to do a gambling demonstration for a corporate party (perhaps they are a gaming company), and I show up and do a parlor show instead. Some things are not mixed for a reason, and some people specialize in one area for a reason... it is not out of hatred necessarily, it is out of personal preference. There is nothing wrong with that.

I do agree that if people say, "there is nothing to learn from the other areas of magic," that that is just plain ignorance, but it is ok to say, "I don't like mentalism," or "I don't like coin work."

Think about it this way. I could take your argument and make it bigger. For example, when you say we should stop segregating and bring magic back to just being called MAGIC, instead of card guy and coin guy, etc... I can easily just as well say, we should stop segregating entertainment, and just bring it back to ENTERTAINER, rather than just magician, dancer, comedian. That would be utter bullocks. As is what you are saying.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

I agree with the points given thus far. It really isn't segregation but categorization. It is necessary so that you can focus on certain disciplines under the umbrella of magic. Why do I bash websites? Why it is simple really, other then the fact I thoroughly enjoy getting a reaction out of people, it is generally true and my opinion.

Thusly, Id assert myself indubitably. Obviously you have learned a card trick. Congratulations and good luck in high-school.. Peace.

 

[nexusmagic]

Congratulations and good luck in high-school.. Peace.

I wish I was in Highschool...