"Segregation" in the Magic Community

[Tempest]

Person A says "blah blah blah." Person B disagrees with "blah blah blah," but forgets what manners are while doing so because typing their edgy "to-the-point" opinions on an internet forum about a group of people that normal society ALREADY dislikes, makes them feel like a big boy.

Person C casually checks online out of curiosity and stumbles across discussion. Person C laughs at said discussion because it reminds him of a game of marbles, or in other words, insignificant and full of people who think marbles is an awesome game to play. Person C laughs some more, and posts a witty reply because Person C is actually quite awesome, and handsome.

Undoubtedly, someone will be offended by Person C's post, because online egos are usually accompanied by toddler-level emotions, thus resulting in hurt feelings, even though I haven't said anything to anybody in particular. Someone will feel it's their duty to respond and be the hero.

Ummm, to the original poster, yeah. Segregation is bad, unless we're segregating stupidity from our society, and then I'm all for it. I personally haven't noticed much anti-attitudes against other forms of magic. But yeah, I totally don't get the anti-E vibe. I mean, I myself have more reasons to be upset at E than the majority of people online, but I'm not and I don't go around mouthing off about them because I "think" I'm a part of something and it makes me feel accepted.

Ellusionist has their niche. T11 has their niche. Now can we all hold hands, eat smores, and sing some songs? :]

|| sean ||

 

[shinichikudo992000]

let the thread die.

Now that is cold; how about lets get closer, better, warmer?

 

[shinichikudo992000]

I am also blue eyes white dragon...do I pass, too? I am powerful. I also have silver hair. Do you know Redemption? That is one of the craziest thing in card magic.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

I agree with the points given thus far. It really isn't segregation but categorization. It is necessary so that you can focus on certain disciplines under the umbrella of magic. Why do I bash websites? Why it is simple really, other then the fact I thoroughly enjoy getting a reaction out of people, it is generally true and my opinion.

First, I would like to thank for your respond. It is by far the most professional out of the rest here. I respect you for that.

Now get to the point, segregation is what I am talking about. We have the new generation going around and saying that they are hating a branch of magic. For instant, like they are saying I hate coin magic, hate stage, hate cards, etc. That is the problem, and this problem is getting worst; the problem started at forums like this where people hate, talk trash about each other, arrogant is what the new generation is learning from us. I just want all of us to cut this crap, and restored magic like the way it is supposed to be. If this is too much to ask, then I am totally lost all faith in magic communities because they are nothing but a hand full of sand; slowly falling apart. Quietly but surely.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your initial post made it look like you wanted to do away with all forms of categorization. Am I wrong?

Prae man, we should meet up in Sydney.

There are categorization of magic, no question ask. It is created for sorting purpose and maybe others purposes. It is differ when someone say that I am a card guy and I hate coins because it's hard and it's a waste of time. segregation I am talking about here that young magician in this decade don't love the art as the whole picture, but part of it. That is why it limited the way they think. That is why if you are going to any magic club; it is all the same. Everyone is doing the same stuff. Lack of creativity because they don't exposed themselves to other part of magic. Magic is not about who does the best version of matrix or invisible deck effect. It is all about doing magic with everyday object, and using an advantage to enhance your performance. Believe it or not, the spectators does get tired of watching cards tricks for 20 min.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Hahaha. I really appreciate and enjoy your input.

I really have no idea why you're here. Either roll with the flow or get out.

 

[shinichikudo992000]

To the OP... you need to learn the difference between an ideal perfect world, a delusion, and reality. What you are speaking of, doesn't even really fall into "an idea perfect world," and it is very far from reality.

Your reply to the people who say they hate to mix xcm with close-up card work is to learn to stop hating and to share, and to teach each other bla bla bla. But in actuality, mixing xcm with your card work can turn a perfectly good close-up routine into crap. That is not "hating xcm", it is realizing that the two don't mix well in the professional world of magic.

It would be like if I am hired to do a gambling demonstration for a corporate party (perhaps they are a gaming company), and I show up and do a parlor show instead. Some things are not mixed for a reason, and some people specialize in one area for a reason... it is not out of hatred necessarily, it is out of personal preference. There is nothing wrong with that.

I do agree that if people say, "there is nothing to learn from the other areas of magic," that that is just plain ignorance, but it is ok to say, "I don't like mentalism," or "I don't like coin work."

Think about it this way. I could take your argument and make it bigger. For example, when you say we should stop segregating and bring magic back to just being called MAGIC, instead of card guy and coin guy, etc... I can easily just as well say, we should stop segregating entertainment, and just bring it back to ENTERTAINER, rather than just magician, dancer, comedian. That would be utter bullocks. As is what you are saying.

I do know what is the Ideal world and a reality. It is wrong to try to achieve the goal or it is right to let things come to s&*t without doing anything? Think about that and reply to me.

Your XCM will ruined your magic routine if you are carelessly putting a routine together. Remember these are tools to enhance your performance. Like any other tools, it will backfire if missed used. For example, taking a metal rod and insert it in a live wall electrical outlet. (I will not responsible for anyone's life who are dumb enough to attempted this experiment).

If you are hired to do gambler demonstration, and you do a parlor show instead. Well, that is your stupidity. You only have yourself to blame because you don't educate yourself in other part of magic. Therefore, you can't fulfill the requirement of a lay person as a magician. It is like a lay person asking you to turn a dollar to a hundred, and you so a card trick instead. In the layman's head at that moment will think, does this guy do magic? Or he just pwned me in the face and do something else?

I agreed with your last statement, lets brings all arts together. There will be no segregation between arts any more. I did not say this, but you had just enlighten me.

 

[TheatreHead]

Did you want a philosophical or concrete answer as to why I'm here?

 

[shinichikudo992000]

Person A says "blah blah blah." Person B disagrees with "blah blah blah," but forgets what manners are while doing so because typing their edgy "to-the-point" opinions on an internet forum about a group of people that normal society ALREADY dislikes, makes them feel like a big boy.

Person C casually checks online out of curiosity and stumbles across discussion. Person C laughs at said discussion because it reminds him of a game of marbles, or in other words, insignificant and full of people who think marbles is an awesome game to play. Person C laughs some more, and posts a witty reply because Person C is actually quite awesome, and handsome.

Undoubtedly, someone will be offended by Person C's post, because online egos are usually accompanied by toddler-level emotions, thus resulting in hurt feelings, even though I haven't said anything to anybody in particular. Someone will feel it's their duty to respond and be the hero.

Ummm, to the original poster, yeah. Segregation is bad, unless we're segregating stupidity from our society, and then I'm all for it. I personally haven't noticed much anti-attitudes against other forms of magic. But yeah, I totally don't get the anti-E vibe. I mean, I myself have more reasons to be upset at E than the majority of people online, but I'm not and I don't go around mouthing off about them because I "think" I'm a part of something and it makes me feel accepted.

Ellusionist has their niche. T11 has their niche. Now can we all hold hands, eat smores, and sing some songs? :]

|| sean ||

Sean, you are the only person who understands the word magic in this thread. I salute you with all my respect to this post.

 

[Tempest]

Did you want a philosophical or concrete answer as to why I'm here?

I don't think he actually requested an answer, so if you feel you should, you can can offer your input at any point.

 

[RikAllen]

People naturally separate into groups that have similar interests. If I don't enjoy flourishes and flourishing then I won't be able to relate to people who do. I don't hate flourishing, it's a skill just like anything else and a hobby to most...just like magic is to most. To mix the two is ridiculous in most instances and the few who can pull them off usually don't go into a full pandora for full effect of a card trick.

Go into any office, any school, any Family function and tell me people don't already segregate themselves to some degree (sometimes very extreme degrees). It's a comfort zone that I can relate to. I do a lot of card magic-hey you do to-hey you wanna talk card magic? That's how it works. If I'm into country music and you like metal, we're not going to talk about music...and more than likely not going to hang out. They are different scenes all based out of the same overall category (music).

Magic is the same way. Cardistry has a different vision than Card magic and even then coin magic; closeup has different requirements than parlor and stage is different (again) than both of the former. Segregation can help you grow faster in the area you're interested in, and there is always the opportunity to try the other categories...I mean how many times did you say 'i want to do coin magic now' and coin magicians go 'no, we're better than you NAH NAH NAH (with tongue out and hands in moose antler pose...somehow concealing coins)' It doesn't happen that way.

I'm with prae and anyone else who said 'grow up'. You need to look at the big picture. If someone from E came to these forums and discussed (reasonably and logically) any topic in magic nobody would bash them. Nobody cares if you shop at other companies, most people encourage it. T11 has great products, but let's be honest, even the creators tell you to get out and find other material to grow with. Wayne Houchin's Junto sessions have been with material and books from different magicians on different topics.

It's easy to think you see things the way they are, especially if you never leave the T11 forums for a broader sense of the world, but sometimes you just have to admit that you were wrong in your assumption. Prae and dicer and many others are serious mentalists and yet they're on T11's forums which neglect to have a separate forum for their craft. They do study magic, probably more broadly than you do, and yet they perform mentalism. It seems like they're contradicting your claims without even knowing it.

I'll leave you with a few questions:
Are you a part of every magic forums on the internet? The Cafe, Dee Christophers forums, Handlordz, E, T11, Magichat ...and the other 2 dozen websites that have magic related forums, and even then are you a part of every level and topic of discussion? Stage, Parlor, Cards, Coins, Cardistry, Doves, Illusions...etc?
If you aren't, your only being hypocritical and your points are not going to be considered valid.

 

[Craig Browning]

Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away there was this cultural-social tradition known as DISCIPLINE which was closely tied to a thing known as etiquette. The two went hand in hand via one’s application of the two proper progress could be made in life, doing so in a manner that allowed you to not only demonstrate your talents in whatever field of vocation that was chosen, but even permit you to go beyond those levels previously known; especially if your path entailed aspects of “the arts”… which magic just happens to be a part of.

Going back in time just a few short decades we can find that Magic offered several key disciplines or “Niches” if you would;

• Close-Up
  Parlor
  Stage
  Grand Illusion
  Escapes
  Mentalism

Each of these primary categories had their subdivisions of course; close-up and Parlor styled magic and to some limit, stage each catered to the discipline of manipulation; cards, coins, billiard balls as well as Livestock & Silks, both of which had their own area of special study

Grand Illusion of course had its own set of rules and elements of discipline; a solid understanding of theater, lighting & sound techniques as well as set & costume design, scripting, cuing, etc. a far more massive undertaking than the average mage can imagine, truth be known. Same goes for Escapes and if ever there were a challenging vein of work for the practicing mage, escapology would have to be it; difficult to sell as a stand-alone feature and even more difficult to present in ways that are convincing.

When we get to the category of Mentalism a huge box of worms gets opened. Rather than going into detail I’m going to refer you to two essays I just posted elsewhere in response to questions put forward by a young man interested in Mentalism, you can find them here;

Part One
Part Two

NOTE TO MODERATORS: if these links are against forum policy feel free to contact me, I’ll gladly post the information here as a future reference.

It is not a matter of prejudice that divides things but rather the ethos of honor, respect and integrity; when you incorporate these things into your life and how you view things; you begin to understand why it is important to allow a Tiger to be a Tiger and a Pig a Pig… so to speak.

Business wise, talent buyers want to see a product – a package that they know the contents of. It’s what we call “an Act”… An Act is composed of a set of routines and when you have culminated these things, creating a series of acts, you end up with “A Show”… something that runs no less than 20 minutes to a maximum of 2 hours. When framed properly a full-evening show can in fact blend most all of these categories because the performer can deliberate divide the program to exhibit such. The only problem being when it comes to the Mentalism side of things; Mentalism offers very little that is visual and secondly, the psychology for presenting effective Mentalism is the exact opposite to that tied to magic; the latter is passive and operates in a kind of agreement between audience & performer. The patron comes knowing that everything is a trick but, when they come to see a Mentalist the common view is that what they do is legit – disbelief is taken from them and belief instilled. It is this investment of belief by your patrons that makes Mentalism so potent and more so, makes you so unique… more than a mere magician that does tricks

Everything in life has a right way and a wrong way but at the same time, there does exist a “middle path” that some of us find and have just the right knack for making it work. This is an exceptionally rare scenario, but life really is far more grey than it is black & white, something we must keep in mind, in that some “rules” do need to get broken here and there. That is how we ended up with Bizarre Magick and the current popularity of Street Hypnosis. BUT, wisdom must be the unbreakable rule and that comes only through experience. Someone that has done this work for the bulk of their life will obviously know more than those with 3-5 years’ experience, etc. To be a “Fraternity” we must accept that and as the elders, pass on what we’ve learned to the Padawan and so forth. Sometimes that means following the “Vernon Technique” and cracking their knuckles with your wand because they are being clumsy or stupid (and yes, the professors would do such things… he was rather short tempered) . While I mean this metaphorically, I likewise mean that the Onus is on our shoulders when it comes to improving the quality of magical performance as a whole… that however is a different can of worms… sort of.

Helping young people see the benefit behind discipline and the segregation of the elements is part of said work. It helps them see for themselves how focus and discipline in one area, even if it is temporary, allows them to excel and ultimately, guides them into that niche that best fits them at this stage in their lives. It is the best possible gift we can give to them and a quality that we can restore within our ranks that will allow magic to grow while likewise reclaiming our secrets, accepting that we don’t need to know how someone else’s effect work when it isn’t something we can or will ever use.

Learn to stick with what you do best… the stuff that is you and don’t worry about the rest. Isn’t that simple?

 

[FOO:L]

op is a gaff.

complaining about rifts between different styles of magic/manipulation has been around since forever.

If you disagree with me ,don't believe that Magic is not supposed to be whole, or do not have anything nice to say, then do not reply to this post. I don't wanna see your names, so I can avoid you.

lol whut?

 

[superlizardmo]

why can't we all just get along? I feel some magic sites have become too comercial. The best time I ever had buying magic was at Tannen's in new york. I spent half an hour picking stuf out and a guy helped me the whole time. That's what buying magic should be like.

 

[worldwideme]

Take a min and think about the word SEGREGATION.

I'm sorry i forgot about this thread. truly.

when i think about segregation. what comes to mind is the placing of some people beneath others for no reason. so are you saying a look down our noses on other genres of the art is the problem?

i feel your right. to an extent.

i have to know what works for me and what doesn't. and sometimes that requires a strong distaste on certain types of magic to keep me from spending money on them. for example. story and explanation tricks work the best with me. if i were to grab an impression pad and read minds... it wouldn't work. so i've developed a healthy distaste for mentalism. I respect very much, i'm always amazed by the high level of character development a good mentalist displays. but i can't do it justice. it doesn't fit me. so the thought of buying mentalism.. has to be a major..."yuck, why?" or even "mentalism sucks, why would i perform it?" i have to keep this mindset. or my own character and style would be so mish-mashed it'd be like watching a bipolar schizophrenic (HOLY COW! I SPELLED THAT RIGHT WITHOUT SPELL CHECK!!) act. not pretty.

but its when i tell others i'm better than mentalists because i'm not one. thats when it crosses the line

 

[saborfang17]

If you literally translate segregation, it would mean to group apart. Not always a bad thing. It's just when it happens in America, it somehow turns bad. Just like other things, such as pizza. Sh*t, I tell ya, pizza hut is ****ing disgusting.

 

[Tempest]

If you literally translate segregation, it would mean to group apart. Not always a bad thing. It's just when it happens in America, it somehow turns bad. Just like other things, such as pizza. Sh*t, I tell ya, pizza hut is ****ing disgusting.

Well, the word taken literally really does have connections to the separation of groups, specifically people, and the World English Dictionary even goes so far as to say "minorities." Segregrate is a loaded word.

 

[tokyoUW]

To the OP, a lot of your responses are based off of an interpretation of simple semantics. And, seeing as you are not a native speaker of English, this is quite a risky thing to be doing.

Look at it this way. Let's take Billiards/Pool for example. I would agree that if a 9-ball player went around and said crap like, "8-ball sucks, and three cushion billiards sucks, and snooker sucks" but doesn't give any reasoning behind his opinion, that he is just talking Sh*t. However, a pool player has every right to say things like, "I don't enjoy three cushion billiards, so I only play 9-ball." That his completely his choice. It is his money and his time, and if doesn't want to play three cushion billiards, even though it is connected to 9-ball in a way, that is completely fair and his choice.

So, back to magic. I enjoy cards and coin work as opposed to cups and balls, rope routines, chop cup routines. It doesn't mean that I think they are bad areas of magic, it simply means that when it comes to my magic hobby, I would rather focus on other things.

If you think that is wrong, than you are just ignorant.

 

[Steerpike]

We are magician, not XCMer, not coin guy, not card guy, and not a purest. Stop diving the art, stop hating each other, it is time to come back together and form "MAGIC" as it meant to be.

You are full of crap beyond your years, kid. It seems to me you can't tell the difference between a specialist and someone just being a prick. Mostly because you're in such a hurry to paint yourself as some kind of saint. The fact that you use the word "segregation" implying some kind of civil rights issue is at stake is proof enough of that.

If you disagree with me ,don't believe that Magic is not supposed to be whole, or do not have anything nice to say, then do not reply to this post. I don't wanna see your names, so I can avoid you.

Then you don't belong on the internet. You're too much of a close-minded, self-righteous egomaniac. Which I guess does technically qualify you to be a magician, but still...

 

[Craig Browning]

You are full of crap beyond your years, kid. It seems to me you can't tell the difference between a specialist and someone just being a prick. Mostly because you're in such a hurry to paint yourself as some kind of saint. The fact that you use the word "segregation" implying some kind of civil rights issue is at stake is proof enough of that.


Then you don't belong on the internet. You're too much of a close-minded, self-righteous egomaniac. Which I guess does technically qualify you to be a magician, but still...

Firstly, to Snickerdoodle (whatever the hell that name is) the New Age idea of everything being one single entity isn't as literal or applicable as you're trying to make it in your statement above. "Magic" is but the main category but it has many divisions and sub-categories such as I noted above. You are confusing these subdivisions with some kind of societal structure, which isn't practical, nor logical. Your on-going grumbling in this thread suggesting that you're feeling some kind of guilt -- persecution -- due to your mode of doing things; I'm betting it's a "Jack of All Trades" attitude in which you jump around from one discipline to the next, blending and melding it all together, not understanding the reason for the separation and how there is a variable in the disciplines that allow each form to work.

Steerpike... that last line of yours is priceless and quite prophetic!