theory11 — Magic Tricks & the World's Finest Playing Cards
Opinions on Ellusionist
- Thread starter Austin24
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(Note - I break up responses for clarity, that's all)
The Black Tiger deck kicked off the Black deck idea, which definitely put a lot more steam into the custom card thing. But there were custom decks long before E or T11 came along. Jack Daniels, Mickey Mouse, etc. They just seemed to have turned it into an industry instead of being a way to market a brand.
There's a lot of cross-over in Theory11 and Ellusionist. I think they both end up inspiring each other. The minimalist designs that have been coming out have been influenced by people like Peter McKinnon and Daniel Madison. Previous releases were getting intricate due to the influence of people like Jason Brumbalow. But you may have noticed that design overall is kind of moving to a more minimalistic aesthetic again. This is normal, designs fluctuate like that.
You know, that's true. It is about time they worked on a new gaff deck. Hmmmm.
Largely the reason they moved away from gaffs was because the USPCC changed a lot of policies in regards to gaffs. A large number of the designs they had in decks like Ultra Gaff or the Red/Blue Bicycle Gaff can't be used any more. Nothing that alters the trademarked designs is going to be OK'd. Therefore they have to make gaffs for non-bicycle design decks. But obviously those may not sell as well as 'mainstream' gaff decks, so they have to weigh that chance against how much it costs to store a product that isn't selling well. I've been to their warehouse. They have to use their space efficiently.
That being said .... (trailing off into weighted silence)
I kind of dig it, honestly. Dai Vernon delved into the world of the cheat to get better at card magic. Charlie Miller, Richard Turner, Erdnase, Marlo, Ricky Jay ... mixing magic and gambling themes is not exactly new. It's just on an upswing now. Gambling style performances give a middle ground to people who don't want to be as flashy as flourishers, but also feel frustrated having to hide their skill like straight-up "I'm doing magic" magicians. Personally I find that gambling sleights serve my magic better than 'magic' sleights as the gambling work is more invisible and I hide as much skill as I can.
Don't even get me started on the steampunk deck. Massive fail in my opinion and I have voiced that before. Got me so riled up I stopped looking at T11 for a while. To be honest, I like a lot of the designs they come out with here, but they just don't resonate with me. They look cool but feel like they have less depth. That's me, though. Just like someone might not be able to get into traditional Irish music but really gets into Norwegian death metal. When I first started working with the Artifice V1s they just felt right in my hands. Same with Dealers. Nothing from Theory11 has done that for me.
While the Theory11 Customer Service has always been good and has never remotely let me down, all of the other things you listed are the reasons I prefer Ellusionist. I think the two communities are geared to different types of people and that's great. Having a place where someone feels at home so to speak really helps them continue with something like magic or flourishing. That community is what drives us. For me the community at E feels a lot more personal, and their aesthetic sense is more in tune with mine.
But like I said, it's not about which company is 'better'. I'd say they're probably about the same, but they appeal to different people. That's a good thing.
The Black Tiger deck kicked off the Black deck idea, which definitely put a lot more steam into the custom card thing. But there were custom decks long before E or T11 came along. Jack Daniels, Mickey Mouse, etc. They just seemed to have turned it into an industry instead of being a way to market a brand.
There's a lot of cross-over in Theory11 and Ellusionist. I think they both end up inspiring each other. The minimalist designs that have been coming out have been influenced by people like Peter McKinnon and Daniel Madison. Previous releases were getting intricate due to the influence of people like Jason Brumbalow. But you may have noticed that design overall is kind of moving to a more minimalistic aesthetic again. This is normal, designs fluctuate like that.
You know, that's true. It is about time they worked on a new gaff deck. Hmmmm.
Largely the reason they moved away from gaffs was because the USPCC changed a lot of policies in regards to gaffs. A large number of the designs they had in decks like Ultra Gaff or the Red/Blue Bicycle Gaff can't be used any more. Nothing that alters the trademarked designs is going to be OK'd. Therefore they have to make gaffs for non-bicycle design decks. But obviously those may not sell as well as 'mainstream' gaff decks, so they have to weigh that chance against how much it costs to store a product that isn't selling well. I've been to their warehouse. They have to use their space efficiently.
That being said .... (trailing off into weighted silence)
I kind of dig it, honestly. Dai Vernon delved into the world of the cheat to get better at card magic. Charlie Miller, Richard Turner, Erdnase, Marlo, Ricky Jay ... mixing magic and gambling themes is not exactly new. It's just on an upswing now. Gambling style performances give a middle ground to people who don't want to be as flashy as flourishers, but also feel frustrated having to hide their skill like straight-up "I'm doing magic" magicians. Personally I find that gambling sleights serve my magic better than 'magic' sleights as the gambling work is more invisible and I hide as much skill as I can.
Don't even get me started on the steampunk deck. Massive fail in my opinion and I have voiced that before. Got me so riled up I stopped looking at T11 for a while. To be honest, I like a lot of the designs they come out with here, but they just don't resonate with me. They look cool but feel like they have less depth. That's me, though. Just like someone might not be able to get into traditional Irish music but really gets into Norwegian death metal. When I first started working with the Artifice V1s they just felt right in my hands. Same with Dealers. Nothing from Theory11 has done that for me.
While the Theory11 Customer Service has always been good and has never remotely let me down, all of the other things you listed are the reasons I prefer Ellusionist. I think the two communities are geared to different types of people and that's great. Having a place where someone feels at home so to speak really helps them continue with something like magic or flourishing. That community is what drives us. For me the community at E feels a lot more personal, and their aesthetic sense is more in tune with mine.
But like I said, it's not about which company is 'better'. I'd say they're probably about the same, but they appeal to different people. That's a good thing.
Such as? I have looked at a lot of the effects on Ellusionist and really didn't care for any of them. They really spend a lot of time on the trailers and from what I have seen from other places are really underwhelming.
Once again, this comes down to personal preference. The performance makes the trick and people are often disappointed by the method. I use a lot of material from E in my work and it gets great reactions, and I use stuff from Theory11 to great success as well. It's usually not the trick, but the performer.
INVISIBLE , PURE SMOKE, KUKARATE COIN,KING RISING LEVITATION,LIQUID METAL, SMILEY, JUMPINK, SHIFT etc.
Dont get me wrong I like Theory11 but as for performance, Ellusionists effects are much better live. Dont just watch the trailer or perform it to yourself, go out and try it on people and maybe you will think the same. Again, I still love some T11 tricks.
Pd: Sorry for bad english Im from Argentina
Yes, those releases are good. But Theory 11 has Spidey's material, Rick lax's Filter, Detach, Record, Vertigo, Mathieu Bich's absolutely brilliant material, Jason Englands lessons and so many more. Theory 11 has 14 pages of tricks with 12 effects on each page. In just sheer quantity, Theory 11 is winning in that respect. In my personal experience, I've ALWAYS been satisfied with the content Theory 11 puts out. Also, everything you mentioned requires a gimmick. Theory 11 has a healthy balance of gimmicked and impromptu material. I don't know what makes you think Ellusionist is the better "magic" retailer.
Its all about personal preferences. Spideys material is good but most of it is just based on old techniques that I already knew like a year before He started posting his effects. The techniques are classics and I always use them but they are not original from T11. Rick laxs material is sometimes good, but some of his effects are not good for performing, like Record. I judge tricks by publics reactions and If I can perform it, Im not satisfied with tricks that I can only do to myself. But again I LIKE LOADS OF T11 STUFF!!!
But still I would recommend everybody to buy a book instead of 10 trricks from here or Ellusionist.
Pd: sorry again for my bad english
But still I would recommend everybody to buy a book instead of 10 trricks from here or Ellusionist.
Pd: sorry again for my bad english
I think the thing I'd want to leave you guys with is this: Don't stick to one store.
It's great to have one place that you feel 'at home'. But don't even, for one second, think that you can't buy from anywhere else, that's stupid. Figure out what resources you need and find them. I don't even really buy much of anything these days. I am focused on improving my shows and my performance skills. But that doesn't matter. It's not about who's better, it's about growing as a magician.
It's great to have one place that you feel 'at home'. But don't even, for one second, think that you can't buy from anywhere else, that's stupid. Figure out what resources you need and find them. I don't even really buy much of anything these days. I am focused on improving my shows and my performance skills. But that doesn't matter. It's not about who's better, it's about growing as a magician.
Personally I don't really care about the custom decks. Many years ago I used to have the white ghost decks and the Masters Deck and I found that the masters deck lasted a while but was too damn expensive, I also didn't like how the ghost decks didn't really last too long. After awhile, I ended up using the and really liking The Richard Turner Gold Seal deck, they are pricey but last a really long time (which is good, because anything that saves you money in the long run. Is always a good deal.).
Now, I just use regular bikes and don't really care too much about specialty cards from either company.
As for things like who has the best magic... They are both pretty much equal when it comes to quality. Both of them have really rough starts and both of them have pretty much developed into quality companies. But, if you really want to know the secret of good magic.. It's this.. There is nothing new under the sun. You can pick up an old book and would likely have much better magic than most magic sites out there.
Think about this way, both of these companies are not going to be around forever.. You can find all the magic that they have on download and DVD in the majority of most of the old books out there.
Now, I just use regular bikes and don't really care too much about specialty cards from either company.
As for things like who has the best magic... They are both pretty much equal when it comes to quality. Both of them have really rough starts and both of them have pretty much developed into quality companies. But, if you really want to know the secret of good magic.. It's this.. There is nothing new under the sun. You can pick up an old book and would likely have much better magic than most magic sites out there.
Think about this way, both of these companies are not going to be around forever.. You can find all the magic that they have on download and DVD in the majority of most of the old books out there.
Trouble is I'm so opinionated. I don't like settling for less, nor do I want to ask other people to do so. Getting things wrong when you could have just as easily gotten them right is a pet peeve of mine.
A true steampunk deck would, in my mind, use swords instead of spades. The backs would have a complex, Baroque filigree instead of gears. Clockpunk is a subgenre of steampunk in which clockwork mechanics replace steam power, but it has resulted in the unfortunate misconception that anything with visible sprockets is steampunk. The face cards should probably reflect Victorian fashions (I'd look to the dandies like Beau Brummel and a young Benjamin Disraeli for inspiration), and for the ace of spades... I'm thinking something like a heraldic crest. To put the "steam" into the whole steampunk motif, I would place the joker onto a steam-powered bicycle based on turn-of-the-century concept art for such proposed inventions and give him a sort of Oscar Wilde look with a few whimsical accessories.
That's sort of where I'm coming from. A lot of custom decks just feel gimmicky to me. There isn't a whole lot of thought behind the aesthetic sense, it's just sort of a theme that's there.
Like the now-defunct Propaganda decks. The theme felt kind of shallow. They were the junk food of custom cards. And yeah, I did get a bit of that feeling from the Fathom deck as well. I just feel that these sort of things work better with an over-arcing design philosophy behind it. If I were to start using playing cards more, I could easily see myself going with the Artifice Tundras. Understated, classy... I've been watching a lot of Val Lewton movies lately, so I could also go with the Artifice or Black Ghosts as well. But those have a certain vibe to them I don't get from a lot of custom decks. They feel like they enhance and compliment a style rather than try to have the gimmick of the design carry its own weight.
That is a deck I could get behind.
I've basically run out of stuff to add, I guess. I agree with Steerpike in the area of an overall theme or lack thereof. Everything from Ellusionist (At least currently and in recent history) seems like it's from E. With Theory11, that's just not there.
Hey everyone!
We usually try to stay out of discussions like this (we are biased, as are several other individuals in this thread). As a general rule, we try to let free conversation flow as much as possible. Personally, I wanted to jump into this thread to set the record straight on a few things. I am not going to discuss Ellusionist, or any other company, as our goal at theory11 is not and has never been to compare ourselves with others. Our goal is to compete with ourselves, and to consistently push the envelope and raise the bar that we ourselves set. I believe our work and the unrivaled reputation of our artists speaks to that effect, so this response does not.
Many of the comments in this thread have been regarding personal preferences, as to what deck or decks you like (or hate) the most. This is a very important distinction: these are personal preferences. theory11 is the largest client of USPC, and accordingly the largest producer of designer, premium playing cards. As a result, and especially as a result of our prolific spectrum of styles, that means that NOT every deck will fit the style of every person. Of course, with decks ranging from street art (Love Me - featured in this month's GQ Magazine) to Artisans and Animal Kingdom - that's okay.
One thing that I do think is important to specifically mention and remember: our charity: water playing cards have, I believe, been the most important deck EVER released, certainly by theory11. We had ONE goal and one purpose in mind for that product: we donated (and continue to donate) 100% of the profits from each sale of it to charity: water. This resulted in over $18,000 in donations in the first 30 days alone - and TENS of thousands of dollars in the months that followed. These playing cards literally changed people's lives, and it's completely due to the support and amazing reception received to benefit a cause greater than ourselves.
With regard to styles: everyone has their own. But I could not be more confident or proud of our work and our success. While Christopher and Steerpike expressed each of their opinions in this thread - and they are welcome to them - they are just that: opinions. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions, and I'm happy to state that our reviews and success overall speaks for itself. Especially one review from David Copperfield - who called Artisans "the best playing cards ever produced."
Our goal at theory11 is not to compete against Ellusionist or any other company. Our goal is to be in a league of our own. We work with world class designers to create the best possible decks. And when it comes to our magic, our philosophy is the same. We bring in the most respected artists in the world to make sure you have some of the best magic in the world.
theory11 has NOT just released magic tricks and playing cards, though. Among our greatest triumphs isn't a product, it's a platform: The Wire. There are over 2,500 artists registered on The Wire to date, enabling a new global platform for magic creators (and cardistry too!) to share their work and advance the art as a result. This, in addition to many things we do aside from commerce, focused on the community (ranging from Saturday Night Contests to podcasts to live broadcasts like this past Monday, with ten artists in an hour long live panel), all for free.
Our passion is providing theory11 members with the best possible resource for cardistry, magic, and playing cards. We push ourselves every day to provide a better experience and better products. We try to outdo ourselves at every opportunity. Perfection is a goal we will never reach, and it is a goal we will never stop chasing.
You can look down if you want. You can spend time stomping on things you don't like. It is your choice. That said, when you do this you miss everything you could have seen if you looked up. Find the things you like and focus on those. Negativity is rarely helpful, especially when it is simply based on opinion. In this case, there is no positive, meaningful result that can result from subjectively comparing one company to another. For that reason, and many more, I believe it best to close this and return to discussion of other, far more meaningful topics.
// L
We usually try to stay out of discussions like this (we are biased, as are several other individuals in this thread). As a general rule, we try to let free conversation flow as much as possible. Personally, I wanted to jump into this thread to set the record straight on a few things. I am not going to discuss Ellusionist, or any other company, as our goal at theory11 is not and has never been to compare ourselves with others. Our goal is to compete with ourselves, and to consistently push the envelope and raise the bar that we ourselves set. I believe our work and the unrivaled reputation of our artists speaks to that effect, so this response does not.
Many of the comments in this thread have been regarding personal preferences, as to what deck or decks you like (or hate) the most. This is a very important distinction: these are personal preferences. theory11 is the largest client of USPC, and accordingly the largest producer of designer, premium playing cards. As a result, and especially as a result of our prolific spectrum of styles, that means that NOT every deck will fit the style of every person. Of course, with decks ranging from street art (Love Me - featured in this month's GQ Magazine) to Artisans and Animal Kingdom - that's okay.
One thing that I do think is important to specifically mention and remember: our charity: water playing cards have, I believe, been the most important deck EVER released, certainly by theory11. We had ONE goal and one purpose in mind for that product: we donated (and continue to donate) 100% of the profits from each sale of it to charity: water. This resulted in over $18,000 in donations in the first 30 days alone - and TENS of thousands of dollars in the months that followed. These playing cards literally changed people's lives, and it's completely due to the support and amazing reception received to benefit a cause greater than ourselves.
With regard to styles: everyone has their own. But I could not be more confident or proud of our work and our success. While Christopher and Steerpike expressed each of their opinions in this thread - and they are welcome to them - they are just that: opinions. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions, and I'm happy to state that our reviews and success overall speaks for itself. Especially one review from David Copperfield - who called Artisans "the best playing cards ever produced."
Our goal at theory11 is not to compete against Ellusionist or any other company. Our goal is to be in a league of our own. We work with world class designers to create the best possible decks. And when it comes to our magic, our philosophy is the same. We bring in the most respected artists in the world to make sure you have some of the best magic in the world.
theory11 has NOT just released magic tricks and playing cards, though. Among our greatest triumphs isn't a product, it's a platform: The Wire. There are over 2,500 artists registered on The Wire to date, enabling a new global platform for magic creators (and cardistry too!) to share their work and advance the art as a result. This, in addition to many things we do aside from commerce, focused on the community (ranging from Saturday Night Contests to podcasts to live broadcasts like this past Monday, with ten artists in an hour long live panel), all for free.
Our passion is providing theory11 members with the best possible resource for cardistry, magic, and playing cards. We push ourselves every day to provide a better experience and better products. We try to outdo ourselves at every opportunity. Perfection is a goal we will never reach, and it is a goal we will never stop chasing.
You can look down if you want. You can spend time stomping on things you don't like. It is your choice. That said, when you do this you miss everything you could have seen if you looked up. Find the things you like and focus on those. Negativity is rarely helpful, especially when it is simply based on opinion. In this case, there is no positive, meaningful result that can result from subjectively comparing one company to another. For that reason, and many more, I believe it best to close this and return to discussion of other, far more meaningful topics.
// L
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