Do you like Books?

Nov 8, 2007
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Aren't books still things other people are telling you? It's not like the book wrote itself.
Well, Mr. Sardonic, my point is that if you don't read you have to rely on someone else who does read to tell you the information you're looking for, whereas if you read regularly you can go out and buy/borrow a book on the information you want and gain it instantly. Everything you'll ever want to know is in a book somewhere. And you can learn a lot more a lot quicker by reading something an expert wrote on a subject than you can talking to an amateur paraphrasing said book.
 
Oct 9, 2007
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Aren't books still things other people are telling you? It's not like the book wrote itself.

If you learn from DVD's you are basically copying the style, patter and timing from the bloke you just saw doing the trick. Books make you think more about the magic you perform and let's the trick develop until it fits you. Only watching DVD's makes you a clone.

I'm not saying all DVD's are bad, there are some very good one's out there. But there are even better books.

I personally can never see DVD's overtaking books. I heard a saying once, something along the lines of "if you're looking for something old, look in a new book. If you're looking for something new, look in an old book"

You'd be surprised how many "new" and "groundbreaking" tricks come out these days that are taken straight from an old book. Mercury (David Kong) was ripped straight from a very old book (I think it was in Racherbaumer Ascanio Spread book) and lets not mention Voodoo Zone :)

I mean look at all these new card/coin through whatever effects. Some of them probably have new methods, but the idea is hundreds and hundreds of years old. Another good example, Fallen, looks great but the ACR is one of the oldest card tricks ever.

I'm not saying that old ideas can't be improved upon or new methods for old ideas are no good, because they can be, but when you have "new" effects being released that are just hundreds of years old, it's almost laughable.

Basically, I've rambled. But what I'm trying to say is that books seriously will make you a better person AND magician. They will help you develop a character and will also make your magic your own, not some clone of what you see through your TV screen.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
479
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Philadelphia, PA
I like books better than DVD's for a few reasons:

- I get to come up with my own presentation and wording often
- I have to really think about an effect and decide if there is something I would change
- I get a deeper understanding of the magic and methodology behind the effect
- I don't see the stuff I am performing from books on YouTube
- Books often force you to work harder at learning and developing a particular effect. This in turn generally increases your appreciation and overall performance of such an effect.

The main thing I dislike about video and DVD training is the parroting I see everyone doing of the routines they have learned. Yes there are certain things that might be incredibly hard to describe in print that play better visually for learning. I think a fair balance of both is most certainly the way to go for anyone serious about getting beyond mimicking their DVD mentors.

Just my thoughts on the surface of things, nothing too deep =)

--Jim
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
my point is that if you don't read you have to rely on someone else

Even when you do read, aren't you still relying on the writer?

This isn't just sarcasm, I'm seriously questioning your line of reasoning.

If you learn from DVD's you are basically copying the style, patter and timing from the bloke you just saw doing the trick.

You could - but nothing makes you copy it, any more than anything makes you develop style and patter for the tricks in a book. If you're a good performer, you'll develop your own. If you're not, you won't. The DVD gives you a handy crutch to imitate; the book doesn't.

Doesn't that make the DVD better?

After all, none of us popped out of our mothers with the inborn gift of magical performance. We had to learn it. Someone had to teach it. Why can't the teacher be on a DVD?
 
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Nov 19, 2007
76
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MD
Magic books or all books? I do prefer watching a DVD to reading a magic book (I learn better by seeing) but I'm always up for a good novel... Bad books are another story.
 
Nov 8, 2007
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Even when you do read, aren't you still relying on the writer?

This isn't just sarcasm, I'm seriously questioning your line of reasoning.
I think you're really just missing my point. I thought I was pretty clear in my second explanation. Sorry if it's still not making sense, but I don't know how to explain it other than the way I have already.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
3,786
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For the sake of devil's advocate, let's go over quickly a couple virtues of teaching on DVD.

The most obvious benefit is being able to see the moves performed. Jeff McBride in particular emphasizes this virtue in his manipulation DVDs. For some of the moves he performs, nothing can equal seeing it in real time from a master.

But let's go a little deeper. Let's say you already have a basic knowledge of most of the fundamental aspects of performance theory. How many of you would give a million dollars to see a film of Max Malini at work in a bar? It's never going to happen, but wouldn't that be great? A virtuoso of misdirection and showmanship who could hide blocks of ice twice the size of his hands effectively enough to magically produce them from under a lady's hat.

The ability to see a professional in real time in front of real audiences with the proper analytical paradigm, gives one the capacity to mentally dissect the scene and go over what worked and what didn't and why. The only thing better is having an actual mentor.
 
Oct 9, 2007
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You could - but nothing makes you copy it, any more than anything makes you develop style and patter for the tricks in a book. If you're a good performer, you'll develop your own. If you're not, you won't. The DVD gives you a handy crutch to imitate; the book doesn't.

Doesn't that make the DVD better?

Isn't there too much immitation around these days? What I'm saying is you need to develop your own, and a book will let you develop much faster and better into something that other people are not. A book makes it easier to change routines, to change patter, and to make the trick fit in with you, not the other person who made it up.

Take Jumping Gemini for example. Ortiz teaches the speed you "should" be doing it at. Why should we all be doing it so fast? Let it fit in with the way you perform.

Steerpike said:
I am? News to me.

Yes you are because that was totally directed towards you and no one else.

If you are starting out, or even pretty advanced, it always helps to see a sleight at work so you can see what it should look like, no doubt about that. DVD's like Daryl's Encyclopedia are great for teaching only sleights and throwing in a few tricks aswell. It shows you what the sleights should look like but doesn't give you the chance to copy other people's personalities, which some people may not realise is a bad thing. That's why I'm saying that some DVD's are good, but on a whole, in my opinion, books are a much better way of learning magic.
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
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54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
Isn't there too much immitation around these days?

Yes, there is.

Does that mean all imitation is bad? No. God, no. What a hellish concept that is.

Magic is a performance art, just like dance or theatre. You can write all the books in the world, and nothing will teach you as quickly or as well as simply seeing someone else do it - because you can simply do as they have done.

Those with a future in their art will not simply do as others have done. They will manufacture their own modifications and additions to the performance. But in order to understand what modifications and additions are appropriate, you must have a mental library of things that work - a library constructed by analogy with other things that work. Things... well, that other people have done.

Everything is derivative of something else. If your performance is not derivative of the magic act in the DVD, it's derivative of some other act. Maybe not even a magic act. Johnny Fox, for example, has a demeanor and delivery surprisingly similar to Bob Saget... which most people never notice.

a book will let you develop much faster and better

Stop right there.

No. It. Will. Not.

A book forces you to develop your own timing and rhythm because it does not have any. It simply can't teach you an effective timing and rhythm. The DVD will show you that timing and rhythm, and instruction by example tends to be more rapid than any other. After all, babies learn by example.

If you simply copy the example, the DVD is not to blame.

My concern with your line of argument - as well as Exitmat's - is that your rhetoric suggests that instructional DVDs are a Bad Thing. Instructional DVDs are a Good Thing, and make no mistake about it. They teach faster and better than books, and always will. They are simply superior training aids, when you have the option.

After all, most of us can't watch a DVD on the bus... but we can read a book.

There's a progression of what works best in instruction. When you are first learning something, a one-on-one in-person session works best. The instructor can see what you are doing wrong, and correct it immediately. Once you have those basics down, examples remain the best way to learn, but you need less correction - so you'll learn well from video lessons. And once you reach the intermediate stages, reaching the advanced levels of your art can only be done by reading books, because you can't see how to think about things.

What makes a good magician into a great magician isn't what they do, it's how they think, and most of them couldn't explain it if you asked them. While the evidence of how they think is right there in everything they do, it's easiest to track and reverse-engineer that thought process from a book.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,238
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My concern with your line of argument - as well as Exitmat's - is that your rhetoric suggests that instructional DVDs are a Bad Thing.
NOWHERE did I say, or imply, any such thing. I've simply made an argument for why reading books in general is a good thing. That's it.

Perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills.
 
Oct 9, 2007
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Well I have never said DVD's are a bad thing. I simply said some DVD's are good--in terms of what you will sub-consciously take out from them, and it's content.

I think it will be a life long argument of Books Vs DVD's. Some will think DVD's, some will think Books. Who knows, with technology going the way it's going at the moment, DVD's may well take over books, but I can personally never see that happening.

If you simply copy the example, the DVD is not to blame.

But people may find it hard not to copy the example. I remember people used to talk about when they watch a performance being done and then try to modify it into what they want, they simply can't, because they can see no other way of performing it. And these are beginners were talking about here. Little balls of clay that are ready to be moulded into, wait, yet another David Blaine.

A lovely quote from Simon Lovell:
"A visual learner is simply somebody who's too lazy to learn how to read a book. That's why you're watching you're prissy little DVD's and becoming a clone of the magician that came up with the effect or routine you're seeing. DVD learning, is passive learning. A book, on the other hand, makes you think.

That is what's so good about a book. It's interactive so you can go through the book, learn from it and you choose what's good for you. Then you've got your presentational style coming from your heart and not from your TV screen."

I think you're missing the point on the "a book will let you develop much faster and better" line. It will let you develop into your own. A DVD will let you develop into the bloke sitting the other side of the screen. You want to get out there and develop style and performance by yourself, and let others follow in YOUR path. If you follow in someone elses path, you will simply be a pale immitator who however good you may be, will never be as good as the person they are immitating.

Again, there are some great DVD's out there. But there are many, many more great books.
 
Not to upset anyone but am i the only one that does not like books?
I just hate them they are slightly confusing and too time consuming, of course this is completly opininated so don't get to mad (unless you really want to)
I'm just asking because I don't want to feel lonely:(

Amusingly, it is for this EXACT reason I love books so much. There's a wealth of golden material hidden in between the covers of a book that no DVD can touch. Don't get me wrong; I commend the technological advancements of the magic community. It's good to know that magic is so easily accessible for aspiring magicians and learning is ten times easier than it was twenty years ago. However, I noticed that with each DVD release, amateurs seem to all rush to buy the same things and end up performing the same material. Ironically, it's these same individuals who can't figure out why they're not creative or original enough to get their feet wet performing for a living. I believe the answer is that they simply don't read enough.

Reading does take patience. It takes maturity. It requires imagination to fully comprehend how an effect works on paper. These are traits that are unfortunately slowly diminishing in the next generation of magicians. Books offer so much more than a few effects to learn. They instill creativity, intellect, self-appreciation, and hard work in readers. These characteristics are essential to a successful performer. If someone can learn to appreciate reading as much as they enjoy being mindlessly spoonfed via watching a television or computer screen, they'll come out the other end as a more well-rounded individual with a better grasp of magic and performance art. On top of that-- they'll have a reputable amount of material that very few others will do.

I also don't believe DVDs convey theory as well as books do despite how hard they may try. The Derren Brown books have changed the way I perceive magic and perform to this day. I cannot say that about any DVD or video I own.


In my opinion, books are worth so much more...

RS.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
But people may find it hard not to copy the example.

That's part of the learning process.

Even the Tarbell Course has scripting and choreography in it. Are you saying nobody copies all of that?

13 Steps lists several routines with complete scripting and choreography. So does Modern Coin Magic. These are point that people who whine about DVDs often forget.

As I said, copying is part of the learning process. For some bizarre reason, we attach shame to it, rather than let people go through their vulnerable beginning and build themselves up from there.

I remember people used to talk about when they watch a performance being done and then try to modify it into what they want, they simply can't, because they can see no other way of performing it. And these are beginners were talking about here. Little balls of clay that are ready to be moulded into, wait, yet another David Blaine.

Are you actually trying to suggest to me that seeing other performances in any way, shape, or form is bad?

A lovely quote from Simon Lovell:
"A visual learner is simply somebody who's too lazy to learn how to read a book. That's why you're watching you're prissy little DVD's and becoming a clone of the magician that came up with the effect or routine you're seeing. DVD learning, is passive learning. A book, on the other hand, makes you think.

That is what's so good about a book. It's interactive so you can go through the book, learn from it and you choose what's good for you. Then you've got your presentational style coming from your heart and not from your TV screen."

As long as we're namedropping, Jeff McBride loves DVDs. Do you own any of his? They're fantastic!

I think you're missing the point on the "a book will let you develop much faster and better" line. It will let you develop into your own. A DVD will let you develop into the bloke sitting the other side of the screen.

They let me?

An inanimate teaching reference's quality can only be measured in how much understanding it gives you of the subject material. Did it accomplish what the creator set out to do?

To tell me that I'm so stupid that I can't come up with anything craetive of my own to say once I've seen another performer do a certain trick, is akin to telling me that I'm dumb enough to think that Sonic the Hedgehog is personally telling me to fight the power. And by fight the power, I mean destroy robots.

You want to get out there and develop style and performance by yourself, and let others follow in YOUR path.

And you can only do that by performing. Reading a book is not performing any more than watching a DVD is.

Again, there are some great DVD's out there.

Name them so that I can be certain this isn't just lip service.

I also don't believe DVDs convey theory as well as books do despite how hard they may try. The Derren Brown books have changed the way I perceive magic and perform to this day. I cannot say that about any DVD or video I own.

Question: Wouldn't a lecture from Derren do the same thing? He's saying the exact same stuff in the book as he is in the lecture. But somehow, by taping it and putting on DVD, those same words cease to mean anything.

I'm just not getting the logic here.

People, let's be realistic here. What is the main reason that treatises on theory are in print instead of on DVD? It's more economical. Paper, editors, and publicists are much less expensive than tape stock, videographers, video editors, sound guys, sound editors, whoever owns the space they're renting...
 
Oct 9, 2007
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To be honest, I'm just repeating myself here. I'm not going to have a virtual argument with you. Clearly you love DVDs. I'm not going to start repeating myself and waste my time. Feel free to waste your money on expensive DVDs that are only re-packaging what is being sold for cheaper in a book.

Read back over what I and other other people have written and you will find the answers to all the questions you just asked. All except for the one where you asked me to name some good DVDs. Just naming good DVD's is a little vague. It depends what you are looking for and how advanced you are. Cards? Coins? Rope? A mixture? I don't know.

People, let's be realistic here. What is the main reason that treatises on theory are in print instead of on DVD? It's more economical. Paper, editors, and publicists are much less expensive than tape stock, videographers, video editors, sound guys, sound editors, whoever owns the space they're renting...

Spot on. :/
 
Jan 6, 2008
355
0
54
Seattle
www.darklock.com
NOWHERE did I say, or imply, any such thing.

"How are you going to learn anything [...] if you don't read?"

Explain, if you would, how that statement doesn't directly imply that reading is the only way to learn anything.

Perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills.

Since my exact statement was "your rhetoric suggests", not "you said", I don't think my reading comprehension is the problem.

Well I have never said DVD's are a bad thing.

Again, "your rhetoric suggests". Whether you said it is not the issue. The issue is that at no point in your argument do you show any respect for the DVD as an instructional method, which is simply unfair. Your complaint has nothing to do with the instructional method itself, but with how the student interprets it. You are blaming the lesson for the student's failure.

I think it will be a life long argument of Books Vs DVD's.

This is what we call a "false dilemma". You are trying to choose, when you don't need to choose. There is no reason whatsoever why you need to choose between books and DVDs. You can and should use both.

they watch a performance being done and then try to modify it into what they want, they simply can't, because they can see no other way of performing it. And these are beginners were talking about here.

Yes, because this is how beginners learn. It is only after seeing many routines from many people - whether in print or on screen - that they will gain the body of knowledge necessary to create their own routines. At first, those routines will simply be compilations of other people's disassembled routines, and then they will move forward to create routines that are theirs and theirs alone.

When you demand that people must do this from the very beginning, you simply raise the bar to a level most people can't reach. That doesn't do us any favors.

This really isn't anything new. What's happened is that with the new distribution channel of the internet, people around the world are learning the same tricks from the same people. Twenty years ago, if we lived on opposite sides of the country, we emulated the performances of local magicians - so I had never seen the guy you copied, and you had never seen the guy I copied. It's not that there was less copying, it's that we were copying a larger selection of magicians.

A lovely quote from Simon Lovell: "A visual learner is simply somebody who's too lazy to learn how to read a book.

Yes, what a lovely quote about cognitive theory from a sleight of hand expert.

Hey... wait a minute.

A book, on the other hand, makes you think.

Emphasis mine.

The book FORCES you to think. The book REQUIRES you to think. If you DON'T think, you can't use it.

That makes the book harder to use. That's a form of inferiority.

A DVD will let you develop into the bloke sitting the other side of the screen.

So does a book! When you read a book, you're reading the opinions and preferences and directions of SOMEONE ELSE. The difference isn't that it's not somebody else, the difference is that you can't see as much of it. This is not a benefit, it is a flaw. Look into a book of card magic, and find one of the drawings that show how to hold your hand.

Is that drawing accurate?

You don't know. Because you don't see the actual magician performing the actual trick, you don't know if that's how he holds his hand or not. And in an awful lot of cases, neither does the magician.

You can never get that from a book. If the author is just plain wrong, you can't tell. If he says "put your finger here" but actually puts his finger somewhere else, the book doesn't say that. You need to see him perform the trick. And the book won't show you that.

Again, there are some great DVD's out there. But there are many, many more great books.

Since we've been writing books for some six thousand years longer than any form of video archival medium has existed, what exactly did you expect?
 
Jan 11, 2008
84
0
france
ok first off i think books are great. I havent read much magic books due to difficulty in obtaining them. But i agree with many people here, if you do not read, you are missing out. Books allow you to be more creative with your magic and eventually make your own tricks based on principles or tricks you read in books.

DVD's are great as well because you get to see the trick before you learn it, but on the other hand, MR.anybody can get their hands on a dvd, wheras not many people read books in todays society, meaning many of the tricks in books are less known and as said before by someone, your tricks arent peformed by some kid somewhere on youtube if its out of a book.

Having said that iam going to go a bit of topic if people here dont mind. Since alot of people here are keen on books i want a suggestion for a book. i would want some advice on a book i should read?

Iam looking for a book which has effects which are different and original, if the book includes some card tricks its fine but iam honestly avoiding card tricks at the moment (unless their creativeley original)
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
1
34
Long Island/New York
Way back when, books were the only thing you can learn magic from. I think their important because there are magic tricks/sleights taught in books that people will never make a DVD for, because it's better to keep it a secret. You won't have kids giving tutorials because most of them won't read to find out how to do something.(Their not that dedicated to give magic tutorials) I guarantee you that there are books out there that magicians don't want you to read because they don't want the secrets to get out.

There could be absolute gold in your bookshelf, and you don't even know it. I think we all should read books to learn magic that's not taught in DVDs.(Maybe T11 should put out one or two books and have a protected forum for it just in case that people get confused when reading from the book)That is a purchase I would defiantly pick up.

Don't get me wrong, DVDs are great. They help me learn better because it gives me a visual approach of what I'm learning.

But say if Wayne Houchin put out a book. Many of his fans will buy it, but only few will actually read the whole thing from start to cover. Near the end, there should be one really great piece of magic, that would be worth the price of the whole book. Only that select few would know that information. So I think books are a great tool for learning things that you haven't even discovered.

-Dan
 
Sep 1, 2007
479
0
Philadelphia, PA
Having said that iam going to go a bit of topic if people here dont mind. Since alot of people here are keen on books i want a suggestion for a book. i would want some advice on a book i should read?

Iam looking for a book which has effects which are different and original, if the book includes some card tricks its fine but iam honestly avoiding card tricks at the moment (unless their creativeley original)

Here are a couple threads you might want to read if you are looking for a few good books:

http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=4254

http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=4337

--Jim
 
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