Do you like Books?

Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Feel free to waste your money on expensive DVDs that are only re-packaging what is being sold for cheaper in a book.

Tell me which books exactly contain routines using UV light? Which book has Garrett Thomas' Ring Thing? What book was Live at the Jailhouse completely ripping off?

All except for the one where you asked me to name some good DVDs. Just naming good DVD's is a little vague. It depends what you are looking for and how advanced you are. Cards? Coins? Rope? A mixture? I don't know.

Any DVD that you don't believe is rip off. I don't care what's on it.

Unlike you, I don't buy into this argument that there needs to be a right and wrong way. I own as many DVDs as I own books, a point I made earlier. For someone who claims to love reading so much and tells me to re-read everything he's said, this is ironic that you didn't see that, isn't it?
 
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A little late for that, isn't it?



Don't be disingenuous. Tell me which books exactly contain routines using UV light? Which book has Garrett Thomas' Ring Thing? What book was Live at the Jailhouse completely ripping off?

Do you listen to yourself talk?

I wouldn't necessarily say that DVDs rip off what's already been published, but there is no doubt a fairly large amount of overlap. In many, many cases, DVDs merely repackage what's been done before. To demonstrate this, I'll actually answer your questions above.

1. There's one book that comes to mind which probably references UV light and similar types of magic. In 1993, Dover republished a manual entitled Chemical Magic by Leonard A. Ford, a scientist who also had a reserved interest in magic.

2. Garrett Thomas's Ring Thing can be found in the good old-fashioned Tarbell Course in Magic, Volume 4. Granted, when the effect was originally written back then, it didn't utilize a finger ring. It used thimbles-- but regardless, the mechanics were EXACTLY the same. I wouldn't be surprised if people used rings for ages. When Ring Thing was released, I couldn't believe it was advertised as something new, because I'd known people who've done it for decades prior.

3. Live at the Jailhouse is a great DVD set. There's a lot of versatile material and real-world advice in it. But you'd be foolish to deny the fact that everything on it can also be obtained from a variety of books and lecture notes already on the market. Sponge balls, bottle appearances, basic card techniques, dollar folding-- all have numerous (countless) references in magic literature. Again, I'm not saying the set deliberately ripped off material-- but it just rehashed a lot of what's already been done. Additionally-- if you're looking for specific advice on real world performing, Jim Sisti's The Magic Menu surpasses what this DVD offers ten-fold.

As a heavy advocate for reading, I probably can reference various books and notes where DVDs mindlessly overlap. I don't believe that it's done intentionally. I do, however, believe that as consumers-- buying such DVDs is a quick way to waste money as you get much more bang for your buck when you decide to put your face into a book. I'll admit there are advantages and disadvantages to both realms. It's my personal opinion to believe that the advantages of reading do outweigh those of merely watching a television screen.

Something else to think about-- I believe it's excruciatingly easy to measure a person's caliber based upon what he performs. In many cases, I can have two people perform the same effect and tell who learned it from a DVD and who learned it from a book. From experience, I find that books inevitably offer an intangible, positive quality to people's magic. There's a certain lackluster in the way modern amateurs deliver and perform their material. I believe this is largely due to the fact that they're brainlessly spoonfed everything they know through television and instructional videos. That's a bold statement, I understand. Others will disagree. But I think its truth is very apparent.


Take care.

RS.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
1. There's one book that comes to mind which probably references UV light and similar types of magic. In 1993, Dover republished a manual entitled Chemical Magic by Leonard A. Ford, a scientist who also had a reserved interest in magic.

2. Garrett Thomas's Ring Thing can be found in the good old-fashioned Tarbell Course in Magic, Volume 4. Granted, when the effect was originally written back then, it didn't utilize a finger ring. It used thimbles-- but regardless, the mechanics were EXACTLY the same. I wouldn't be surprised if people used rings for ages. When Ring Thing was released, I couldn't believe it was advertised as something new, because I'd known people who've done it for decades prior. That's what you buy the DVD for.

3. Live at the Jailhouse is a great DVD set. There's a lot of versatile material and real-world advice in it. But you'd be foolish to deny the fact that everything on it can also be obtained from a variety of books and lecture notes already on the market. Sponge balls, bottle appearances, basic card techniques, dollar folding-- all have numerous (countless) references in magic literature. Not to say the set ripped off material-- but it just rehashed a lot of what's already been done. Additionally-- if you're looking for specific advice on real world performing, Jim Sisti's The Magic Menu surpasses what this DVD offers ten-fold.

1. Can you confirm that it teaches everything in the Scorpion kit?

2. Garrett does acknowledge that the sleight itself is not original and sites his sources. However the routines, performance techniques, convincers, and other subtleties are his own that he developed through years of real-world work. Personally, I find his principles of making the routine look like trick photography to be a dramatic improvement on the rudimentary sleights.

3. Considering The Magic Menu ran for how many issues? Live at the Jailhouse offers what is essentially 6 lectures in one package, and it has an advantage that books and lecture notes don't have: you actually get to see these professionals perform. You get to witness their own unique ways of interacting with people, and you can watch for all the subtleties that make their performances work. And once you see something work, you can figure out why. This is second only to having one of these men as a mentor.

Again, I ask: How many of you would pay a million dollars to find long lost films of Max Malini performing in the real world? If you would tell me that you would not want to see that, you're a liar.

And you've actually brought up a point I'd like to address.

Opponents of DVDs repeatedly bring up the overlap as if its the nail in the coffin for the medium. But how many books teach how to do a Pass? How many teach how to do a bill switch? More than you or I can name. If overlap in DVDs is a cardinal sin to some of these people, why don't they complain whenever they find another book that teaches a popular utility? I honestly don't get that.

I own numerous books I've gotten a lot out of. Garden of the Strange, At the Mountains of Madness, The Book of Haunted Magick, Capricornian Tales, Mysterious Stranger.

But there's this bizarre notion going around that there not only should be, but already is a competition between books and DVDs. How many collective head wounds in the magic community does it take to buy into such a transparently bogus idea?
 
It really comes down to the fact it's different strokes for different folks. Personally I enjoy learning from both mediums even though I have a heavy preference for literature. Everyone has their own biases and opinions. It's absolutely okay for one magician to prefer books while another prefers video. I do agree that this is a pointless argument, but I thought it was interesting to discuss the differences in people's points of view.

Take care.

RS.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I do agree that this is a pointless argument, but I thought it was interesting to discuss the differences in people's points of view.

For reasons I'm not smart or insane enough to figure out, I have actually had magicians regard me as a lesser because I buy DVDs. I can't concieve of anything other than a brain-damaging fever in infancy that would result in such a stupid idea.

I really can't convieve of why anybody wouldn't embrace any medium they could to improve.
 
Oct 9, 2007
116
0
I'm just going to back away from the argument now. I prefer books to DVDs. You prefer DVDs to books. I think it's safe to say we established that and are now just sitting here trying to prove an invalid point to each other.

I'll continue buying books and enjoying them. If a DVD comes along with original material, sure I'll buy it. I'm sure you'll do the same, but buy a few more DVD's and a few less books, get less from the DVD's, and then still defend them.

Were DVD's around in the times of Vernon, Miller, Walter Scott, Annemann, Al Baker, Cardini, Leipsig etc? The list can go on for a very long time. There have been absolutely amazing magicians that are legendary to this day who were doing magic even before the TV was invented.

I know, it's not a strong argument, seeing as DVD/Videos havn't been around long enough. But I can assure you, not one magician living today can be at the skill level they were at back in their time.
 
Sep 1, 2007
479
0
Philadelphia, PA
But I can assure you, not one magician living today can be at the skill level they were at back in their time.

I just want to make sure I am understanding you here: Not one single magician alive today has the skill, chops, presentation ability of your aforementioned magicians?

Seriously I like to reminisce about the past and the legends as much as the next guy. You could sit there and say there will never be another Johnny Unitas or Fran Tarkenton (football quarterbacks in case you don't recognize the names). Or there will never be another Michael Jordan but in the end we all know its us just touting the legends of the game. I am sure with the utmost certainty that there are at least a handful of magicians alive and performing regularly still today that would thoroughly impress even the greatest magicians in our history.

It's all a matter of opinion and our interpretation of their legend versus the current working magicians out there. I am not saying they weren't the greatest then and their contributions were immeasurable in some way to the world of magic but to dismiss the guys out there teaching and performing as less skill then those legends as fact would be false, or simply a matter of opinion.

--Jim
 
Sep 3, 2007
2,562
0
Europe
I love reading books... whether they contain any effects or not. I prefer them over many DVDs, but maybe that's just because I've always like to read. :S
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
You prefer DVDs to books.

I actually never said which one I prefer. I've been making the arguments in favor of DVDs because somebody had to.

Were DVD's around in the times of Vernon, Miller, Walter Scott, Annemann, Al Baker, Cardini, Leipsig etc? The list can go on for a very long time. There have been absolutely amazing magicians that are legendary to this day who were doing magic even before the TV was invented.

If I'm reading this right, you're actually trying to suggest to me that they were great because they never watched TV.

Do you know what most of those magicians also had? Friends, confidantes, and mentors. And they actually performed.

The ultimate crucible here is in the company you keep and how much you perform. Not what medium you got your tricks from.

But I can assure you, not one magician living today can be at the skill level they were at back in their time.

Are you trying to tell me that no one will ever be as great or greater than Dai Vernon et al?

When you canonize the past to such a degree that the present will never live up to it, you set yourself up for failure. Chew on that for five minutes.
 
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TKH

Aug 31, 2007
491
0
Wisconsin
1st off I didnt read any of this thread after the first page. Because frankly its ridiculous how many of you dont read books. Simon Lovell has an excellent rant on the new issue of Reel MAgic Quarterly about this.

Really what you are saying is you are too lazy to get good instruction and will settle for learning sleights, from "new" effects that incorporate them. Unles you are dyslexic, you have no excuse. First off, you will be doing something nobody else on this forum is.

Will Finisgh later.....
 
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