Bringing people to Atheism through the art of magic.

[Shodan]

As a committed atheist and empiricist, I often find myself frustrated by the contradictions in our world; we live in a supposed age of rationality and yet almost all major newspapers and magazines still print horoscopes - for example.

I also find it incredibly ironic that people are willing to believe all sorts of weird and wonderful things - just take a good long hard look at the "science" behind alternative healthcare - and yet they are unwilling to believe that "magic" is the result of paranormal abilities. Actually, scratch that - there were those who genuinely thought David Blaine had supernatural powers. My mother is a brilliant example; she loves my magic, is always amazed by what I can do, yet she knows that it's all just tricks. The kicker is that every couple of months she flies to a different country for psychic surgery.

I have never been interested in presenting myself as possessing otherworldly powers, but I do think that well presented magic could have a role to play beyond mere entertainment. The very fact that you are able to create these startling illusions WITHOUT "powers" is an excellent lesson; magic is nothing more than knowing one extra fact. OK, several extra facts. OK, and a crapload of practise. But you get the point.

Through the ages, people have risen to positions of power and influence through the use of magic tricks. Advisors to rulers of empires, only qualified by their ability to cut off the head of a chicken and bring it back to life. A populace kept in religious awe through witnessing the "Breath of God" working the temple doors. Etc.

The endless creativity and ability of the human machine to create the illusion of the paranormal is a beautiful thing, and within lies an important lesson; if my magic is not "real", then what else - that you may accept as truth - is illusion also? I think that this may well be an important message that could well benefit from a "magical illustration".

 

[Dex]

You'd be friends with Derren Brown ... and me.

The fact is if you did your magic tricks in a different situation, with a different atmosphere and specialy by not saying that your are a magician but a "psychic" then most people will believe you have powers.


Well that's (to take your example) Alternative medecine is just a few clever mental tricks, placebo, different claims and a "mysterious and scientific" amosphere and there you have it.


Why don't people see the difference ? Because they don't have a magicians mentality in most cases.

 

[magicmagicmagic]

Here's the thing, I am a Christian... but you don't have to be an atheist to agree with some of what your saying here. Heres a bit of magic history. In the middle ages (even tho the Catholic Church was in power) kings still called on wizards, fortune tellers, psychics, and conjurers to advise and help them. This is seen not only then but also through most of the Bible where kings are serving pagan gods. The town magicians (or jesters/jokers) however, were actually Christians who practiced slight of hand. Their goal was to entertain to get peoples attention, then do what the high wizards and such were doing and then explain that they did not have supernatural powers and that it was all deceit and lies. Once the lay people realized someone else could do this and was not claiming power (even though the lay person didn't know how they did it) word would reach back to the king and thats how the jester/joker became part of the royal court and thusly only for entertainment values... not for seeking super natural advice.

 

[Shodan]

Granted.

The point being though that we are prone to believing all sorts of weird and wonderful things. I have in my time believed in:

the healing power of cystals
the paranormal experiences of Parmahansa Yogananda
reiki
the potential for chi to create force without contact

and numerous other crocks of nonsense. But when you believe in something, you don't need evidence...proof...logic...it's only when you take a step back (or when someone bodily pulls you back) that you start to see the absurdity of sleeping with a quartz crystal under your pillow hoping it will cure your asthma.

I have a problem with the whole concept of "belief". Belief is "knowing without evidence", and I think that as a race, we deserve better than that. The medieval Christian magicians may well have been doing what it is that I laid out in the original post, which is a good thing. But so did Derren Brown, and he didn't stop at faith healing and contacting the other side...he went after some major, mainstream belief systems and they all suffered the same fate.

It would appear that the examples laid out so far do indicate that the performance art of magic does have the inherent potential to change people's perceptions of the world. That strikes me as rather spectacular, and possibly the best argument that I've ever come across for calling it an "art" in the first place.

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

I have a problem with the whole concept of "belief". Belief is "knowing without evidence", and I think that as a race, we deserve better than that. The medieval Christian magicians may well have been doing what it is that I laid out in the original post, which is a good thing. But so did Derren Brown, and he didn't stop at faith healing and contacting the other side...he went after some major, mainstream belief systems and they all suffered the same fate.

Andre Kole, advisor for David Copperfield on the Statue of Liberty Vanish was hired as an athiest to debunk christianity and the Bible. He was so unable to do so that he converted to christianity and is now the best christian magician i've ever seen.

I think using Magic to make people believe in nothing or to make people doubt a faith, possibly their own, is a huge misuse of an art.

If you bring someone to Christ through magic and christianity is wrong and we are all little numerical remainders of an unbalenced equation resulting in the big bang and a creation of life and our planet then guess what... nothing is going to happen. We will die and were gone. And we have (hopefully) left behind a trail of good deeds and life changing experiences.

But if christianity is correct and you make others believe there is no god and there IS.... the fate is much worse for you.

I highly suggest that every magician sees Andre Kole. He presents an amazing show and forces NOTHING on anyone. Before his christian presentation he has a break and anyone who wishes to leave can.

THAT is how magic can truly work with faith.

Sharp

 

[Proximo]

Andre Kole, advisor for David Copperfield on the Statue of Liberty Vanish was hired as an athiest to debunk christianity and the Bible. He was so unable to do so that he converted to christianity and is now the best christian magician i've ever seen.

I think using Magic to make people believe in nothing or to make people doubt a faith, possibly their own, is a huge misuse of an art.

If you bring someone to Christ through magic and christianity is wrong and we are all little numerical remainders of an unbalenced equation resulting in the big bang and a creation of life and our planet then guess what... nothing is going to happen. We will die and were gone. And we have (hopefully) left behind a trail of good deeds and life changing experiences.

But if christianity is correct and you make others believe there is no god and there IS.... the fate is much worse for you.

I highly suggest that every magician sees Andre Kole. He presents an amazing show and forces NOTHING on anyone. Before his christian presentation he has a break and anyone who wishes to leave can.

THAT is how magic can truly work with faith.

Sharp

I agree with you on this. I am a Christian but I don't push anything on anyone. I simply hope that my acts of kindness and encouragement will be an example for others.

 

[Shodan]

This thread is not intended as a debate over religious beliefs. Please stay on topic, and if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic, don't post. I will not get into a religious debate! The simple reason being that every single point that you make, I can make in reverse, justified from my point of view, and no one will get anywhere.

This thread is for the discussion of how magic can be used in an unusual way; to open people's minds to challenge what they hold as "true"; what they accept on faith. We talk about challenging reality all the time, but on a grand scale; defying the laws of nature. Everyone accepts that this is "just a trick" - because how can it be anything else? But if the same techniques could be used to challenge more questionable realities, then it may be possible to get people thinking about their view of the world.

If that strikes you as a noble endeavour, then post your thoughts on how this may, practically, be done. The most obvious route of course is via exposure, and obviously should not be done. One example that springs to mind is that effect from the Loops DVD - hair? That could be construed as a true demonstration of psychic phenomena. What an interesting wake up call it would be for those who really bought into it if you then explained the simple secret! However, no magician should condone these methods, so a more subtle way of getting the point across must be sought. I think it's an interesting problem!

 

[bicycle808]

If you bring someone to Christ through magic and christianity is wrong and we are all little numerical remainders of an unbalenced equation resulting in the big bang and a creation of life and our planet then guess what... nothing is going to happen. We will die and were gone. And we have (hopefully) left behind a trail of good deeds and life changing experiences.

Sharp

If we do use magic to support a cause and it turns out to be wrong, then its not that nothing is going to happen. We just made someone deviate from the truth, which is what our human life is about. To seek the truth. That's what all of us at some level seek. Being the remainder of a big bang is beautiful in itself, not something unworthy. We can also leave behind a trail of life changing experinces by helping people appreciate the normal things in life. Anyway. to the magic, that's what we should try to portray in our magic as well. Sometimes the secret can be as beautiful as the magic itself. We don't have to feign 'magical powers' to make someone believe us. I try to think my magic is just as strong when my spectators know it's just a trick. They appreciate it just as much for the effort that been put into it and how their minds can create such illusions.

 

[urban entropy]

I think using Magic to make people believe in nothing or to make people doubt a faith, possibly their own, is a huge misuse of an art.

Sharp

Personally if I can cause someone who was raised to have faith above all else including logic to think for himself and question those beliefs (important note - to question does not automatically mean to disbelieve) then that is a beautiful and very worthwhile thing.

To blindly believe in something because you were told to or raised to in my opinion is very wrong and if done with magic is just indoctrination dressed up. And as the original poster has pointed out, everything you said can be argued exactly the same way from the opposite side.

Rd

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

This thread is not intended as a debate over religious beliefs. Please stay on topic, and if you don't have anything to contribute to the topic, don't post. I will not get into a religious debate! The simple reason being that every single point that you make, I can make in reverse, justified from my point of view, and no one will get anywhere.

This thread is for the discussion of how magic can be used in an unusual way; to open people's minds to challenge what they hold as "true"; what they accept on faith. We talk about challenging reality all the time, but on a grand scale; defying the laws of nature. Everyone accepts that this is "just a trick" - because how can it be anything else? But if the same techniques could be used to challenge more questionable realities, then it may be possible to get people thinking about their view of the world.

If that strikes you as a noble endeavour, then post your thoughts on how this may, practically, be done. The most obvious route of course is via exposure, and obviously should not be done. One example that springs to mind is that effect from the Loops DVD - hair? That could be construed as a true demonstration of psychic phenomena. What an interesting wake up call it would be for those who really bought into it if you then explained the simple secret! However, no magician should condone these methods, so a more subtle way of getting the point across must be sought. I think it's an interesting problem!

No, this thread is titled "Bringing people to Atheism through magic". For those playing the home game, Atheism is not believing in a higher power. So just by titling this thread what you have you already started a religous bash. Your wish is to make people doubt religeon and other "Higher" things using magic. Which, I believe, is a waste of our art.

You want to fool people into your way of thinking or fool them into an alternate opinion using illusion. Verses using fact or tangible proof to do so. You want to use something as fake as a magic trick to make people doubt the world... so Uri Gellar is still kicking... "The father of modern mentalism" or "Ms. Cleo without the accent". Using an illusion to make someone doubt and possibly alter their beliefs on a non-illusionary fact (Not just faith, any type of thing someone may question) is just wrong to me.

Personally if I can cause someone who was raised to have faith above all else including logic to think for himself and question those beliefs (important note - to question does not automatically mean to disbelieve) then that is a beautiful and very worthwhile thing.

To blindly believe in something because you were told to or raised to in my opinion is very wrong and if done with magic is just indoctrination dressed up. And as the original poster has pointed out, everything you said can be argued exactly the same way from the opposite side.

Rd

There is no one today that is truly a chrisitian, or member of any other faith who blindly believes because they were raised that way. At some point you must take responsibilty and accept or deny faith on your own. And if that can be changed by a magic trick... it was never you faith any way.

Sharp

 

[The Royal JRA]

shodan i replied to the christain thread as well but by saying that you dont follow belif is hypocritical you are athiest and if it is the kind im thinking of you "kno for a fact" there is no god well what logical proof do you have, sure science gives us some answers but not all you cannot just belive somthing blindly by faith or you shall fall into the category of religion as well you cannt prove a god exsist or disprove it people claim they can but no1 really knows the answers for sure, if we we meant to kno the answers we would have them but then what would be the point of living if we knew everything then we ourselves would be "god"

 

[S3al]

I will not get into a religious debate! The simple reason being that every single point that you make, I can make in reverse, justified from my point of view, and no one will get anywhere.

Would you bet your life on that? because thats what you are doing.

As for the topic. Yes, magic can be used for lots of things such as this. If you watch faith healers on tv, that call them self "Christians" you will see them do mentalist type effects in a way. They get people to feel things, fall over. All these things you can do with suggestion , Derren Brown proved this. Its sad really...

 

[Shodan]

Wow.

Just...wow.

I don't have time to respond to what people have been saying on this topic right now, but I will return later.

I was hoping for a more mature response!

 

[S3al]

Wow.

Just...wow.

I don't have time to respond to what people have been saying on this topic right now, but I will return later.

I was hoping for a more mature response!

Well it was not very mature for you to name a topic just like another one, in an attempt to mock it. But I guess we all have our own idea of what "mature" means.

 

[Dave]

I would urge anyone who is offended by this post by Shoden not to respond. Do not turn this in to a debate or argument. Show him the respect and love that you would want him to show you on your threads. Even if it seems as if this post was a direct attack or mockery, remember that he has every right to post just like all of us, and we do not know him or what is on his heart. Show him kindness, respect, and love. Lead by the example of what is in your heart.

Shoden, I am sure that you have the best intentions with this post. I hope that this post turns out to be very constructive for you and helps to learn or express what it is that you need to. I hope that this discussion comes to the positive, constructive, conclusion that I an sure you are looking for. Love you man.


Thank you and God Bless

 

[The Dark Angel]

Guys, lets all try and respect everyone's beliefs, even if they may be different from yours.
I don't know if Shodan named this thread with the intent of mocking another thread with a similar title, but I think that if he did it should be changed. There is no reason or need to mock somebody just because they have a different point of view or opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions here, and we should learn to accept that.

 

[S3al]

Guys, lets all try and respect everyone's beliefs, even if they may be different from yours.

Just because I don't agree with him, and I know he's wrong, and I have no problem saying it. That does not mean I don't respect him.

 

[Bizzaro]

I don't have anything to add to this post except that I laughed so very very hard when I read the title. I just had to come in here and comment. Carry on.

 

[StreetMage]

Thanks to whoever remembered Andre Kole's name. I was going to cite that story, but I couldn't for the life of me remember if it was David Copperfield or somebody associated with him.

I see your point, but if I understand you correctly, you're talking about using the art of magic, which creates the appearance of magick through mundane means, to debunk the existance of any paranormal forces. Unfortunately, this is an imperfect argument because it fails to prove its point fully. Proving that it is possible to give the appearance of a supernatural occurance does not actually prove that said supernatural occurance could not take place by any other means.

I'll use an example to illustrate my point. If I had enough money, I could hire actors, build a studio, purchase the necessary equipment, and film something that looks almost exactly like the lunar landing the United States of America achieved during the twentieth century. Does my doing this prove that the lunar landing did not happen, simply because I showed how it "could" have been faked?

 

[clllllust]

Honestly people, I can understand if some people are religious and are offended but here is not the place. This is a place to talk about MAGIC, yet magic has barely any effect or reflection in my mind on what goes on in religion.

If you want to have a huge debate on this talk on msn, skype, another forum etc. These are topics which should be held under more appropriate circumstances. I'm sorry just don't see the point in causing an uproar over this.

-RA69