Can mentalism be combined with magic?

[Chicken]

So I say YES. A mentalist can do magic routines, but not in the same context that he/she does mentalism.



For example. When I do mentalism for a certain audience, they do not see me perform any magic whatsoever. This is because, mentalism on some level has an "explanation" that is not sleight of hand, be it "real psychic powers," or "clever psychological influence." Introduce sleight of hand, and this is broken.
But say, seven hours later at a completely different spot, I can introduce myself as a magician. I can do it, and there is no law that forbids me from doing so.

 

[descartes]

One thing is for sure. Many mentalists use tools from what people would call conventional magic to achieve mysterious effects. At least to that extent, the two can be combined.

For example, think of Derren Brown and his experiment with the undertaker. All card guys know that he did OOTW but the spectator would think it was the most stunning example of mind control/ESP ever.

 

[nexusmagic]

Okay, if you say you are a mentalist and perform an incredible routine in which you perform impossible feats of Psycho-kinesis, ESP, and even fortune telling. At the ending of your show you produce a bouquet of flowers. Whatever you just previously had done to make yourself look like a miracle worker had just been dispelled. People go back and think every action you had done and say in there minds stuff like this “Ohh, he could have switched the billet, Ahh he has an assistant looking things up, He uses trickery.”

That is not to say that mentalists can’t use things that magicians do, case and point Derren Brown. If a layman sees stuff like Devil’s Picture book they would think of him as a trickster that is to say if Derren goes and does lets say an ambitious card routine. Derren successfully melds together magical principles with mentalism, do you really think that using only psychology he can achieve all the things he does?

After getting through that rhetoric question, please proceed. Lets say you want trick the spectator into thinking that you have genuine psychic abilities, or has mastered the use of NLP to take away a thought from a spectator. I think Luke Jeremy teaches how to do this using a simple magic move, a double lift. Now it doesn’t have to only be playing cards heck it can even be the color of someone’s tshirt. Glemme written by Patrick G. Redford is a great book that explores the details of thought forgetfulness.

In conclusion I am not promoting anyone here, I am just pointing creative mentalists that have merged magic with mentalism. The point I am trying to make is that if you are going for the look of a mentalist, you should not mix strait up magical effects with hard-hitting mentalism. Spectators will question your abilities of mentalism and dismiss it for mere trickery. Therefore if you are reduced in the spectator’s eyes to a trickster, you will not be able to achieve that wonderment of “Is this person, a true seer of the future and has a gift no one else has? It couldn’t be trickery I didn’t give him anything. He must be a true psychic.”


Essay by Nexus.

 

[Chicken]

I think we're confusing the term "magic" with the term "sleight of hand." Sure, a mentalist can do "sleight of hand" but not "magic."

 

[tally-ho]

Ok, Thought I'd make a little point here. I am a mentalist, but I also do card and coin magic. One thing I never will do is combine them into the same act. Read Nexus' post as he goes into more detail.

 

[Randy]

Ok, Thought I'd make a little point here. I am a mentalist, but I also do card and coin magic. One thing I never will do is combine them into the same act. Read Nexus' post as he goes into more detail.

Well that was mainly my question. Would you doing lets say a coins across routine or a card effect, ruin the idea of you also doing a billet switch or a center tear routine or even Osterlinds Watch routine.

Would the people/spectators think that instead of you actually being able to read minds or stop time. Just instantly think that you used trickery and end up being less amazed.

 

[nexusmagic]

Well that was mainly my question. Would you doing lets say a coins across routine or a card effect, ruin the idea of you also doing a billet switch or a center tear routine or even Osterlinds Watch routine.

Would the people/spectators think that instead of you actually being able to read minds or stop time. Just instantly think that you used trickery and end up being less amazed.

Simple answer yes it ruins your ability to show that you are more then a trickster.

 

[Randy]

That reply presumes that you dont know what mentalism is, you know what mental magic is.

You can do sleight of hand stuff in your routine/show but that will lead off the theme if you present it as a magic trick. If you present it as a Mentalist demonstration it becomes somewhat mentalist, but its closer to mental magic i think.


@Visualartist, yes i can do what you do. I am a mentalist and i think that you cant do what i do. How would you do a seance? How would you do an impromptu book test? How would you do a blindfolded item reading?

You cant do any of these, because you haven't studied the art. *man i am pissed at you*

They are two completley seperate artforms, on e concentrating on more of psychological than sleight of hand princibles.

Also modern mentalism uses the magic roots to make some miracles work.

Everything needs practice and if i choose to be either a magician, mentalist, geek magician, stage artist whatever, its my choice and every one of them need attention and practice.


*Is officially bummed out or the day, some punk ass kid just pissed me off, thats a first*


Some more questions for visualartist:

How would you do a complete show with only a stop to a local office supply store?

How would you do a 30 minute Q&A routine?

PM me with all those questions i would love to hear what you say, because ive been in this for a year and a half and i now more and more use only Mentalism.
Now if you can do mentalism then please make me a patter that uses subliminal messaging, and get the spectator to be in a certain mood and act a certain way. Ive studyied this stuff so i can get as much as i can out of my spectators. So if you claim you are a mentalist than by all means please tell us what you can do with a center tear and billet change.


Mikk

PS. I would love to hear what the **** you have to say!

That's a good question. I haven't really seen many Magicians do Q&A routines. I think it would look sort of silly for one to do it, just because he/she has already established themselves as a magician and the general consensus about Magicians is that they use Trickery to achieve their effects. It would be impressive, but it wouldn't be as amazing as if somebody like Banachek or Derren Brown did a Q&A or if somebody who was already established as one.

The reason I asked the question was because I love card and coin magic, but also have been reading Fundamentals and I forget where, but Bob Cassidy said something in that range.

I was also thinking which one seems more interesting. Both achieve the impossible. Tho I think that with magic, people will ALWAYS have something to fall back on no matter how good you are. But with Mentalsim, it seems that safety net is removed. Unless I am completely wrong.

 

[Chicken]

Not all mentalists can do Q&A either, something many people miss.


Depends on your character- if you are a "psychological iillusionist," it makes absolutely no sense for you to be able to answer questions like "Is my puppy still alive, and does he miss me." I personally, have never done a Q&A, because I feel to truly pull it off, one has to step into the realm of the "psychic."

 

[Randy]

Not all mentalists can do Q&A either, something many people miss.


Depends on your character- if you are a "psychological iillusionist," it makes absolutely no sense for you to be able to answer questions like "Is my puppy still alive, and does he miss me." I personally, have never done a Q&A, because I feel to truly pull it off, one has to step into the realm of the "psychic."

I see your point, but then Banachek has a Q&A routine and he never claims to be a psychic. I know that Derren Brown did a Q&A routine in his old show "Evening of Wonders." all tho he did it in the guise of a old school psychic.

 

[Mr.MadMan]

That's a good question. I haven't really seen many Magicians do Q&A routines. I think it would look sort of silly for one to do it, just because he/she has already established themselves as a magician and the general consensus about Magicians is that they use Trickery to achieve their effects. It would be impressive, but it wouldn't be as amazing as if somebody like Banachek or Derren Brown did a Q&A or if somebody who was already established as one.

The reason I asked the question was because I love card and coin magic, but also have been reading Fundamentals and I forget where, but Bob Cassidy said something in that range.

I was also thinking which one seems more interesting. Both achieve the impossible. Tho I think that with magic, people will ALWAYS have something to fall back on no matter how good you are. But with Mentalsim, it seems that safety net is removed. Unless I am completely wrong.

Just to clarify that wasnt towards you, that was towards visualartist.

Yes, it depends on your style and how deep you want to take them. The fact is that when you do a card trick that i very flashy and stuff in the middle of a mind reading show it wouldnt fit, it would ruin your chances of getting back the trust that you really can read minds.

Mikk

 

[visualartist]

That reply presumes that you dont know what mentalism is, you know what mental magic is.

You can do sleight of hand stuff in your routine/show but that will lead off the theme if you present it as a magic trick. If you present it as a Mentalist demonstration it becomes somewhat mentalist, but its closer to mental magic i think.


@Visualartist, yes i can do what you do. I am a mentalist and i think that you cant do what i do. How would you do a seance? How would you do an impromptu book test? How would you do a blindfolded item reading?

You cant do any of these, because you haven't studied the art. *man i am pissed at you*

They are two completley seperate artforms, on e concentrating on more of psychological than sleight of hand princibles.

Also modern mentalism uses the magic roots to make some miracles work.

Everything needs practice and if i choose to be either a magician, mentalist, geek magician, stage artist whatever, its my choice and every one of them need attention and practice.


*Is officially bummed out or the day, some punk ass kid just pissed me off, thats a first*


Some more questions for visualartist:

How would you do a complete show with only a stop to a local office supply store?

How would you do a 30 minute Q&A routine?

PM me with all those questions i would love to hear what you say, because ive been in this for a year and a half and i now more and more use only Mentalism.
Now if you can do mentalism then please make me a patter that uses subliminal messaging, and get the spectator to be in a certain mood and act a certain way. Ive studyied this stuff so i can get as much as i can out of my spectators. So if you claim you are a mentalist than by all means please tell us what you can do with a center tear and billet change.


Mikk

PS. I would love to hear what the **** you have to say!

Geez kid,seems im going to have to elaborate what I meant even though it should be straightforward with a little thought.
Magicians can,and at most times do, perform mentalism EFFECTS. Amongst all the other card,coin and whatever magic they do.

But if you call yourself a mentalist,thats all you do.Mental effects.
With all the art that comes with it like subliminal messaging,item reading,etc.And sleight of hand if need be. So kid...
Savvy?

 

[tally-ho]

But if you call yourself a mentalist,thats all you do.Mental effects.

No it isn't. As I've said before, I have a set, only mentalism act and I have a magic act. You just never combine the two.

 

[Randy]

Actually after researching it more IE: seeing Richard Osterlind perform. Doesn't he do BOTH and still keep of the guise of being a mentalist.

 

[visualartist]

No it isn't. As I've said before, I have a set, only mentalism act and I have a magic act. You just never combine the two.

Well obviously in your case its right,i was reffering to randys original question of combing the two.

 

[LOSTMYMINDLETMEREADYOURS]

Care to explain why?

because if you show them that you can do sleight of hand. they will accuse you of accomplishing your mental feats using sleight of hand. trust me, you cant

 

[uhhh_kyle]

I do it all the time. Never had a problem. It just depends on how you perform the two styles.

 

[Chicken]

Do you put Mentalism into your Magic, or Magic into your Mentalism?


The first is "alright" (though gives a bad name to us mentalists), and the second is a "no-no."

 

[LOSTMYMINDLETMEREADYOURS]

I do it all the time. Never had a problem. It just depends on how you perform the two styles.

i assume that you do a magic show and you do some mentalism in it. read my explaination. they will not look at you the same way

 

[visualartist]

On a side note,Do these labels really matter?