# Card Forces

Discussion in 'Magic Forum' started by Jenai, Jan 21, 2010.

1. #1
Hey guys,

Just curious here

What is your favourite card force to use for Forcing the top/bottom card? I dont know too many but i like using the Slip force if I need to force the top card and Hindu Shuffle if I need to force the Bottom card (thats like the best one I know ... although I am looking out for something better)

Also if there are any smooth un-detectible card forces you know please share them

Thanks

- Jenai

2. #2
Slip Force Variation.

Riffle, ask to call stop, then instead of moving the bottom packet forward loading the top card, I rotate the top packet palm up (as I load the card) and say "lets get a card I haven't seen" as I point to the bottom card of the top packet. This action then loads the card almost invisibly, and this version has never failed me.

I hope this makes sense

3. #3
The riffle force works pretty well. I'm starting to attempt the classic force which is all about timing. It's not going to work everytime, but as many people will tell you, have a back up trick in case the force doesn't work.

4. #4
I personnaly like the forces that allow you to spread the cards, thus looking überclean

To force the top card, I use a force that is a variation of Hofzinder's I believe, and used by Jay Sankey in tricks like "Tracking Device " (Revolutionary card magic). The card you force is put in place on the offbeat, and they really can touch any card they want, it doesn't matter.

Also, I like to use the classic force, and as an out (if they don't grab the right card) I cull the force card and once again go into an "Hofzinder like" kind of force. That helped me a lot and gave me confidence to go out and practice the classic force, because I knew that whatever happened, they would choose the force card in a very fait manner.

To force the bottom card, I like the wichita slip (again, rev card magic) and especially its variation taught by DG in Symphony, which allows you to force the bottom card very fairly. d+M's "Inside" (as well as W:H but I don't remember in which DVD) teaches also a bottom card force where you load the force card under the spread in a "bottom deal-like" action, once again forcing the card à la Hofzinder. A good thing with those is that if performed well, you can actually perform them with a different backer and make the specs believe they saw a normal back (unlike the hindu shuffle force where they never get to see the back of the force card, I hope you understand what I mean). Really useful for all those "mystery card" tricks.

One last thing : I always offer the opportunity for the specs to change their mind before showing them the selection
- because it reenforces the fairness
- because specs very rarely change their mind
- because if they do change their mind, it's usuallu very easy to put the force card back into position and do it once again

Wow that was long ! Hope that helps
F.

5. #5
classic force, practice on people you know and that know u are a magician and know somethings. so when you practice and noone picks the force card, but you are comfortable, you can show a layman and he'll go for it like nothing.

6. #6
I have a few favourites; riffle force, swing cut force, ballet cut, underspread cull, criss cross force; whatever does the job best for any given routine really.

7. #7
I currently usually use a riffle force, but Shoot Ogawa's lecture has given me some confidence and ideas with the classic force so I'll probably dust that off and start working on it.

I have a gimmicked force I use when I force a card with the spectator holding the deck.

I really like the Hofzinser cull force, but currently am not good enough at culling to do it well.

Overall, I believe the classic force to be the most natural looking force out there.

8. #8
Thanks for your replies guys!...about the classic force personally i dont think it works that much whenever i tried it they end up picking cards next to the force card or somewhere around that area. some really suspicious people even ask me to spread farther!... if that happens i just perform another trick that doesnt require forcing a card

- Jenai

9. #9
Even the best can't hit it every time. I hear its around 80%-90% for those who are well versed in the timing and technique. I'm like you. I just have to keep working on it to get a feel for it. Then it will come more natural. Good luck.

10. #10
Riffle force combined with halo cut for bottom and can ask if like to change mind.
For top, DL.
In fact, why not have on duplicate on top of deck so if your CF misses, you have a pretty easy out?

11. #11
Riffle force works just fine. Jay sankey's force, I can't recall the name has been the fairer looking baby. But in the end the spectator doesn't really care. With my experience, they say stop, they take the card. All they remember is taking a card they wanted without you seeing it and that's all you need.

12. #12
I use the riffle force taught in Card College Vol. 1.
From the bottom I have a force I learned at the Carolina Close-up Convention, I think Steve Beam taught it, it's hard to explain but I think it's the force taught in Josh Jay's Complete Course. It's full proof from the bottom and easy as they come.

A note on 'natural' forces, other then when participating in a magic trick or possibly the game old maid, how often are people confronted with picking a card?
Who is to say it is more natural to do the classic, when in effect a riffle peek may be more suited for the environment. If I have a circle of people and want someone across the circle to help me, instead of having them come over to me and pick a card just tell them to look at one.

Also, if someone is holding something (coffee in one hand and a cell phone in the other) it's almost better to riffle or dribble and show them the card on the bottom of the top packet, hands off for them and less of a hassle.

Naturalness is also not making something exactly like you would if you were doing it, it's doing something without arousing suspicion. If I told you to think of a number, and then to make it random add that number to a number someone else thinks of and then dealt down to it, you wouldn't question the legitimacy of the 'random' selection. As long as I make it appear fair, it is fair.

Just a few thoughts.

13. #13
Well, yes, there are moments when a specific force becomes more appropriate than in other situations. If I'm near the person I'm having select a card, then having them reach over and select a card (Classic force) seems to make more sense to me than dribbling or riffling them. If you're doing a parlor show and someone's three rows back, dribbling the cards and showing them a selection is probably more natural.

Maybe natural is the wrong word.

I guess for me, it just seems like I have less chance to control the selection if I'm spreading the cards out and letting the spectator choose whichever they want. I like that subtlety.

14. #14
I wish I could say I have the classic force down %100, but that would be a lie.

Most of the time I use the riffle force. After a long time doing it, you realize they don't really care where you stop. Infact, learning a technicaly hard force is a huge waste of time, because you'll realize spectators don't care whether you riffle or spread. They could care less.

Your magic should matter, not what force you use. I've probably done the riffle force a few thousand times, it works wonders.

P.S. My all time favorite force is the cross cut force. Probably the best force in all of card magic.

15. #15
Well, to me, the classic force isn't that technically difficult. Plus, I enjoy doing it, and when I enjoy performing a trick, the spectator sees that fun and perhaps shares in it.

16. #16
The classic does appear fair, but overall the most 'out of control' way to have a card selected is mentally or give them the deck and tell them to pull one out.

It's increasingly difficult to force cards this way though, so we'll stick with the ones we know can be forced.

The classic force, when mastered (90+% success, I don't have it...) is probably one of the more versatile forces for fairness. However, Spectators aren't usually concerned with how the card is selected, they pay attention from the moment you 'lose' it in the deck until it is discovered (or whatever the plot my bring) and eventually resolved.

It's good to know opinions, and if you can use the classic force to great success, do it. I haven't put time into working on it because other forces work equally well with better success rates and I haven't found a need to add it to my toolbox.

I also want to chime in and second (I remember reading it) that the slip force is beautiful when done properly, a very light touch on the top card will help reduce noise, and the tip of turning the entire packet over and 'oops, lets use one I didn't see' moment is very convincing and perfect.

I actually use the slip cut in the second phase of my ace cutting sequence, control to top, shuffle a few times, slip cut each card while 'finding' the aces and then flip them over to show it.
(third phase is spectator cut to aces).
Just a thought how many moves have more than one application, and sometimes the easiest method (cross cut force) is the best.

In Play It Again Sam, The Close-Up Magic of Sam Schwartz he mentions doing this force but not cross cutting, for the effect there was no need to over prove which half, just pick up the bottom and point to the top half, say 'and the card you cut to' and they pick it up without questioning (and it works...strange)

17. #17
My favourite forces I like to perform are:
-Classic Force (I am practising currently)
-Overhand Shuffle Force
-Riffle Force
-Don't know what it is called, hoping that someone can give me the name. You start pretty much a riffle through the deck and tell them when to say stop. The magician takes a swing cut and show the bottom card.
-The Cross Cut Force
-The Cut Deeper Force

18. #18
that one is John Bannon's "Bottom Bluff Force".

I use:
-classic force (70-80%)
-Sid Lorraine's bottom slip force
-cull force

These 3 suffice. I don't do too many tricks that absolutely need a force, so most of the time I'll use a glimpse instead.

19. #19
Thanks for giving me the name of the force.

20. #20
For me- the 'Cut Deeper Force'!