Cards - Do they matter?

[Maharajah]

Here's a question: Why do you care what type of cards you use. Yes people will get suspicious. But why does that matter? Everybody likes different types of cards that fit their style. As Steerpike would say "Normal sucks."

Also I think the only reason people get suspicious is because you act suspicious.

How am I acting suspicious by pulling out a deck of cards, and then a spec asks if they are special? I say no and let them inspect them. I just hate that its even a question if they're normal cards. Which ONLY happend with custom decks NEVER with reg. red or blue bikes. I do not change, the tricks do not change, obviously the specs change, the way I perform doesn't change, the only thing that changed is the cards.................................................................................................................................................................................... Explain?????????????????

 

[Jv]

-When ever I perform,be it with a Custom Deck or not,my spectators have never question by cards to be suspicious or special or a trick deck.

-When ever I bring out open a deck of cards in front of my spectators I normally have them check and examine them,and let them give them a few cuts and shuffles to make sure they're real.

-I also make my spectators trust and be comfortable around me and my props.

 

[Morgan B]

This topic has been discussed - here is the truth from the mouths of people you try to fool:

When I see a deck I don't recognize, I think trick deck - I might not say anything - but I think it. It is like using a magic "prop", when you are not - so you have created a barrier to your magic, where none existed. It is like using all the effects that the masked magician revealed, but using a different method - won't matter - people think they know, and it is as bad as knowing.

Again - for those that aren't getting, "is that a trick deck" - first, not all concerns are voiced, to avoid conflict. This stat has been shown in customer service training, when more than 3/4 of people won't complain that have a bad experience...so you may only be getting the last 1/4 - also, you may not being doing effects strong enough to get that reaction. If I know how your magic was done, and saw the moves - why would I blame the deck - it is only when I am stumped that I start to grasp for straws to make myself feel better - the deck is an easy kill, if it looks unordinary.

I know your logic says - well, I would hide it better, or perhaps you get asked at the start - but this still shows there is an issue out there - you choose to ignore it.

I choose to use decks that people can identify with - it makes my life easy....as we can walk away doing the same effects - my people have no outs - yours can focus on what you wanted them to focus on...your pretty deck.

I want the attention in my magic - not my cards - oddly, I have never dressed in an unordinary way to gain more attention to me...and not my cards - so I don't know why the opposite is acceptable?

If you can "pull them off" - great for you - I choose to pull off things that affect the magic, not my own personal taste in cards...and believe me, I have both taste and choice, with a collection that puts many to shame.

So - that being said - I will continue to use Bikes...that is...until Tally's are sold over the counter in Canada, cause we all know how good that stock is.

 

[tally-ho]

you can get tallys, check shoppers drugmart.

 

[Steerpike]

I want the attention in my magic - not my cards - oddly, I have never dressed in an unordinary way to gain more attention to me...and not my cards - so I don't know why the opposite is acceptable?

Define unordinary.

If you can "pull them off" - great for you - I choose to pull off things that affect the magic, not my own personal taste in cards...and believe me, I have both taste and choice, with a collection that puts many to shame.

Who says it's just about taste in cards?

 

[Morgan B]

Tally-Ho - In Kingston, Belleville, and most of the GTA, I have been unable to find Tally Ho's at any Shoppers Drug Mart - so if you are finding these - please tell me where? Thanks. Because, believe me - I LOOK - and just because your local place does it - doesn't make the deck main stream - Wal-mart doesn't carry them - nor does Toy R' Us, Zellars...you get my point?

Steerpike - I will certainly descibe what I meant by using a word that doesn't really exist in the english language. What I mean by unordinary - think more irregular or simply - different.

Say what you want about individualism - but I want to avoid all the preconceived notions I can. If someone walks up to me with a swagger, wearing a bandanna, baggy pants, a chain, a grill and his hat tilted...I assume he listens to rap and knows what I am talking about when I say I Superman a girl and skeeted on her.

So what I am saying is - I don't wear a tux, a big bow tie and suspenders - I don't wear black clothing, with make up and braclets with spikes on them - I try to dress business casual. As, I would rather avoid the preconceived notions of what comes if I were to wear a tux or dressed like a cliche goth. Perhaps you want this cliche, but I don't want to have to overcome another negative stereotype. Say what you want - but people make judgements that are not exactly positive with some dress that one might consider irregular.

If you are in high school, doing magic for friends - whatever - dress how you want - but working in a professional environment, respresenting a business - you want to look like you are a deal when you name your fee - NOT like you can finally buy that new shirt without a rip i it.

I digress, how does this relate - well, just like I would like to avoid negative and wrongful stereotypes based on my dress, I want to avoid these issues with my cards. I never understood how dressing in certain ways is being an individual - just how I don't understand how using a novelty deck that is massed produced makes you special? All it does it add another issue to handle.

On a side note - did anyone notice what cards and colour cards the gimmicks were made for PH's - TA? How about most gimmicks - Josh Jay's Overlap gimmick - reasonably priced double backers or blanked faces - yep...Bikes - and the gimmicks all came in red. Just an observation. Daryl once told me - "Real pro's use red bikes" - think about why.

Steerpike - I say it is about taste in cards - because what would be the other reason? Image? This would be personal taste? The way they handle? A poor worker blames his tools. There is no solid reason to use novelty decks over bikes - but there is one that started this entire thread. It brings heat to your cards, that is not necessary.

That beings said - the other reason I said it was taste, as like saying it is opinion. I hope EVERYONE uses novelty decks - it is just one more way that I know I am better than everyone that thinks the reason they are not used (people think they are trick cards) is trivial.

We can say to ourselves - cards are cards - and I do believe using a deck like the 1800's are great to enhance an effect with an old plot like Aunt Mary's Terrible Secret. However, the proof to not use them is in what people say - ARE THOSE TRICK CARDS? I find this the same issue that Ortiz deals with in Strong Magic, when he discusses rolling up your sleeves, as you lose 50% of your audience by not doing so...as they think - up the sleeves, even when it is not true. I ALWAYS roll my sleeves up or where a short sleeved shirt, because of the massive number of people that comment that they are indeed that way....proving Ortiz point. People notice.

Steerpike - do me one favour - don't cut and paste my words out of context. My sentence read:

If you can "pull them off" - great for you - I choose to pull off things that affect the magic, not my own personal taste in cards...and believe me, I have both taste and choice, with a collection that puts many to shame.

I am not stating it is JUST personal taste or just mine, as I say in my very next sentence:

So - that being said - I will continue to use Bikes...that is...until Tally's are sold over the counter in Canada, cause we all know how good that stock is.

Meaning my taste is TALLY HO's - but I use Bikes, because they are a good quality card and people are comfortable with them.

I will make this last case:

The trust comes in familarity - Bikes are so well branded, that it would be hard to go to someone's house and ask for a deck, and it NOT be Bikes. Go to a bridge club, it's all they have...or they have those stupid ones with puppies on them (maybe this is personal taste?)

The point is - I will give anyone 100 dollars if they take a Novelty deck not sold over the counter into a poker game - sealed - and people feel fine using it - and don't comment that it is a trick deck. If people won't put MONEY on the trust of the cards...what does that mean about your magic?

I have shared a story about this in the past - where someone wouldn't use Tally Ho's, because they thought they were trick cards...but DID want to use my marked deck of Bikes. Yeah, I cleaned up that night. It is all about branding guys - really.

Now that Gaurdians are being sold at Wal-mart - you may be able to get away with using them...if you really think it is that important to use an inferior playing card!

 

[Randy]

Well actually real pro's use whatever they can get their hands on. Just that MOST Bikes Red or Blue, end up looking like regular average cards. I personally use E's Master Red Bikes simply because the stock is thicker than most cards and I like the feel of them.

I also think most pro's don't use custom decks because it's simply cheaper and easier to get a hold of a regular pack of bikes at just any store you can name. The only pro I know that does use custom cards is Paul Green, but I wouldn't call his cards "custom" the backs are simply green.

I know that Roberto Giobbi uses 505's or whatever.

 

[Randy]

Say what you want about individualism - but I want to avoid all the preconceived notions I can. If someone walks up to me with a swagger, wearing a bandanna, baggy pants, a chain, a grill and his hat tilted...I assume he listens to rap and knows what I am talking about when I say I Superman a girl and skeeted on her.

Only posers superman a girl. Real men, Spider-man and put on wizard robes and hats.

 

[Steerpike]

Say what you want about individualism - but I want to avoid all the preconceived notions I can. If someone walks up to me with a swagger, wearing a bandanna, baggy pants, a chain, a grill and his hat tilted...I assume he listens to rap and knows what I am talking about when I say I Superman a girl and skeeted on her.

So what I am saying is - I don't wear a tux, a big bow tie and suspenders - I don't wear black clothing, with make up and braclets with spikes on them - I try to dress business casual. As, I would rather avoid the preconceived notions of what comes if I were to wear a tux or dressed like a cliche goth. Perhaps you want this cliche, but I don't want to have to overcome another negative stereotype. Say what you want - but people make judgements that are not exactly positive with some dress that one might consider irregular.

That assumes that all preconceived notions are negative, which isn't true.

Granted, the way I dress I'm not going to land the international corporate gigs, but I'm not after that market. If I was, I'd have cut my hair and shaved off my beard a long time ago. But I don't also look like I slithered out of a bargain bin of stereotypes.

I never understood how dressing in certain ways is being an individual - just how I don't understand how using a novelty deck that is massed produced makes you special?

It doesn't. I just look good using it, and that's all the excuse I ever needed.

On a side note - did anyone notice what cards and colour cards the gimmicks were made for PH's - TA? How about most gimmicks - Josh Jay's Overlap gimmick - reasonably priced double backers or blanked faces - yep...Bikes - and the gimmicks all came in red. Just an observation. Daryl once told me - "Real pro's use red bikes" - think about why.

Your last sentence rather crosses the T on the other ones. If red bikes are the best-selling deck among magicians, it makes perfect business sense to produce gaffs to match. I understand where you're coming from, but understand that argument doesn't really work out because when it comes to manufacturing gimmicks, it's a numbers game.

Steerpike - I say it is about taste in cards - because what would be the other reason? Image? This would be personal taste? The way they handle? A poor worker blames his tools. There is no solid reason to use novelty decks over bikes - but there is one that started this entire thread. It brings heat to your cards, that is not necessary.

Again, I look good using them. A white deck just matches well with some of my outfits. All the excuse I need. Besides, I have a script that's actually turned it to my advantage and helps increase my credibility.

That beings said - the other reason I said it was taste, as like saying it is opinion. I hope EVERYONE uses novelty decks - it is just one more way that I know I am better than everyone that thinks the reason they are not used (people think they are trick cards) is trivial.

There's a slippery slope there. After all, Paul Green uses green bikes, and while those have been around for a while, they aren't especially common. Hell, I didn't know they existed until I saw Paul use them. Where do you draw the line?

I find this the same issue that Ortiz deals with in Strong Magic, when he discusses rolling up your sleeves, as you lose 50% of your audience by not doing so...as they think - up the sleeves, even when it is not true. I ALWAYS roll my sleeves up or where a short sleeved shirt, because of the massive number of people that comment that they are indeed that way....proving Ortiz point. People notice.

Then why do some magicians still use sleeving? Believe me, I get the analogy, but I'm trying to make a point here.

The trust comes in familarity - Bikes are so well branded, that it would be hard to go to someone's house and ask for a deck, and it NOT be Bikes. Go to a bridge club, it's all they have...or they have those stupid ones with puppies on them (maybe this is personal taste?)

Familiar props help, yes. But as you said, a bad magician blames his tools. If the color of your deck makes or breaks the rapport with your audience, I'd argue that there's something else going on.

 

[OneCardWonder]

This discussion has actually become extremely interesting. Morgician, you've raised some interesting points, but Steerpike hit the crux for me. In the decision of what gaffs are going to be mass produced, there are going to be 2 factors at play.

The first is, what are the most sold cards, as to produce a gaff for any other card is to inherently limit your market, and the second is, what are the most easily accessible and obtainable cards. Your contention that this supports the idea that 'real pros use bikes' isn't actually one that the facts you've quoted support. This may not surprise you, but you seem to have missed it, the vast majority of people that buy gaffed cards, or decks or tricks are -not- professional magicians. That's not to say that pros don't use gaffed cards, decks or tricks, but out of the entire market for magic out there, I'd guess that a very small percentage have ever performed professionally (i.e. as their principal source of income.) For every Morgician or Steerpike there are about 15-20 mes that perform maybe twice a week at paid gigs and don't earn anywhere near enough from magic to call it my 'profession.'

I'd also contend that for every me, there's about 10-15 people just doing tricks for their friends with aspirations of becoming a pro. Thus if I'm going to manufacture a gaff, and I want it to be widely used, I'm going to produce it using a card that yes, pros do use, but more over, using a card design that is easily obtainable for the mass market. (Namely, non professional magicians, or hobbyists.) In other words, if I don't have a deck of red back bikes, I can easily get one and make use of a gaff. To not make a gaff in Cent design for instance doesn't denote that the cards are harder to use or engender more suspicion, just that the vast majority of the market may not even know what centurions are, where to get them, or where to find the cards that they can use the gaff with. The same could be said for producing a gaff in cards as widely known as Talley Hos.

I acknowledge that most of the gaffs I use are bikes, lol, and I do use red back bikes, but if I'm doing table magic at a restaurant or something I'll normally use Guardians, but I won't always, just because it suits my act and my demeanor, and that may be about personal taste, but maybe its because I always open with a trick that has the spectator holding and running through the deck thus removing any possibility of it being a gaff deck. At that point I don't have any issues no matter what other decks I produce at any point.

That beings said - the other reason I said it was taste, as like saying it is opinion. I hope EVERYONE uses novelty decks - it is just one more way that I know I am better than everyone that thinks the reason they are not used (people think they are trick cards) is trivial.

No one's trivialising the problem of being called out on a trick deck. My contention is that it can happen with red back bikes too. If you perform a trick flawlessly and it truely defies any logical explination to the spectator, then they will start resorting to stuff like trick decks in any event no matter what you're using, unless during the course of the performance, or your style of performance has allayed that fear. A lot of professionals use red back bikes yes, but then a lot don't use them religiously. I can only base it on personal experience, but for me, I'm yet to be called out on using a trick deck because of how the deck looked. Whilst I'm clearly not the professional you are Morgician, and thus I have to respect your opinion, it doesn't match my experience, nor do I think that you're arguments are particularly well supported.

I'm also not sure about your poker point. I have similar stories of playing poker with any cards that happened to be lying around, even cards that I didn't know what the heck they were. Outside of a Casino, anything can happen. I can also say that there's a big difference between gambling and magic. In magic people assume that you are there to trick them, and in an entertaining fashion deceive them. I wouldn't imagine you'd role up to a poker game and announce that you're a card worker either, because you wouldn't be dealing much that night even when you had the button. The spectator has nothing at stake but being pleasantly entertained, which is not the case in a poker game. You can fairly easily remove the issue in a spectators mind of a trick deck by just letting them handle the deck during the routine. Then they just become cool cards.

Someone shouting out 'It's a trick deck' is exactly the same as some youtube watching heckler shouting out 'It's a double lift' when you're holding one card. You can easily prove them wrong and once silenced that objection is seldom raised again. I'd argue that even if someone does say, "TRICK DECK" if you prove them wrong, they at that point are more accepting of the act.

 

[Morgan B]

I hate when you multi-quote me Steerpike - you really like to dissect text, and not take it in it's complete form. You would be a dangerous man if you decided to do this with the bible. The KKK used the "mark of Cain" to hate against the blacks - there is an error in thinking to not take complete thoughts into consideration. Partial thoughts make for partial arguments - so, please, stop arguing line by line - because it forces those that discuss with you to argue at the level of ridiculum.

However, to make my reply make sense - I have to focus on your stuff line to line. Since I don't know how to multiquote - I will just copy and past like a stupid.

That assumes that all preconceived notions are negative, which isn't true.

It doesn't assume that - it assumes that the majority of people have negative preconceived notions, which in society is unfortunately true - we judge books by covers. If you are aiming to make a good living in magic - it may be better to appeal to the masses, rather than a niche market - however, you can make a decent living doing that too. My point is simple - the show starts before you open your mouth, your first impression is made on image. With a TRICKY looking deck - you have created your first barrier...and you haven't even opened your mouth.

It doesn't. I just look good using it, and that's all the excuse I ever needed...Again, I look good using them. A white deck just matches well with some of my outfits. All the excuse I need.

So you admit it is about taste - or for better more complete wording - it is about style...image...to make you feel "cool" - it doesn't really increase your perceived value to your client. So you are trading "it looks good" for "it looks gimmicked".

There's a slippery slope there. After all, Paul Green uses green bikes, and while those have been around for a while, they aren't especially common. Hell, I didn't know they existed until I saw Paul use them. Where do you draw the line?

Green cards for Paul works on two levels - where he is from, those are over the counter decks - also, his last name is Green - so if your last name is Black and you want to use a black deck...or Centurian or Master...then it becomes a branding thing. Green decks, although a different colour, still have a familiar back...it doesn't look abnormal, where marks could be hidden - it looks familar with a twist. The line should be drawn when the back of the deck looks odd to the audience.

Then why do some magicians still use sleeving? Believe me, I get the analogy, but I'm trying to make a point here.

Because they are stupid - they don't understand how people think...they aren't willing to move forward with method. I don't know - but how well is Carl Cloutier's magic doing? When sleeving is done as part of an effect, rather than the sole method - cool - so like everything, a few exceptions.

Familiar props help, yes. But as you said, a bad magician blames his tools. If the color of your deck makes or breaks the rapport with your audience, I'd argue that there's something else going on.

I am not saying it breaks the rapport - I am saying it builds an out in that is not required - that is makes a wall, where there was none....before you even open your mouth. So...if a poor worker blames his tools...perhaps you should use Johnson products for your coin gimmicks, rather than Schoolcraft or Lassen coins - maybe you should use dollar store decks, or keep the same old deck of cards for 3 years, dirty and sticky - because bad props don't matter - it is the worker. A quality worker uses quality tools, so he doesn't have to blame his tools...as he only has to worry about his work speaking for itself.

Again - I like my magic to speak louder than my image. My personality to be more memorable than my deck. My magic to be disarming to the point they don't expect anything from me - UNDERPROMISE then OVERDELIVER:

To rephrase a line from Sun Tzu – “(A good magic show) involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective.”

or better - from Muhammad Ali:

“Give up what appears to be doubtful for what is certain. Truth brings peace of mind, and deception doubt.” - with a deck of novelty cards - you bring doubt to the table...I like to leave it in my drawer at home.

Personal choice...but also personal experience - perhaps you are the exception to the rule...afterall, we are very different - even though our approach is similar.

 

[Morgan B]

1) For every Morgician or Steerpike there are about 15-20 mes that perform maybe twice a week at paid gigs and don't earn anywhere near enough from magic to call it my 'profession.'

2) I acknowledge that most of the gaffs I use are bikes, lol, and I do use red back bikes, but if I'm doing table magic at a restaurant or something I'll normally use Guardians, but I won't always, just because it suits my act and my demeanor, and that may be about personal taste, but maybe its because I always open with a trick that has the spectator holding and running through the deck thus removing any possibility of it being a gaff deck. At that point I don't have any issues no matter what other decks I produce at any point.


3) No one's trivialising the problem of being called out on a trick deck. My contention is that it can happen with red back bikes too.

4) A lot of professionals use red back bikes yes, but then a lot don't use them religiously. I can only base it on personal experience, but for me, I'm yet to be called out on using a trick deck because of how the deck looked. Whilst I'm clearly not the professional you are Morgician, and thus I have to respect your opinion, it doesn't match my experience, nor do I think that you're arguments are particularly well supported.

5) I'm also not sure about your poker point. I have similar stories of playing poker with any cards that happened to be lying around, even cards that I didn't know what the heck they were. Outside of a Casino, anything can happen. I can also say that there's a big difference between gambling and magic. In magic people assume that you are there to trick them, and in an entertaining fashion deceive them. I wouldn't imagine you'd role up to a poker game and announce that you're a card worker either, because you wouldn't be dealing much that night even when you had the button.

6) The spectator has nothing at stake but being pleasantly entertained, which is not the case in a poker game. You can fairly easily remove the issue in a spectators mind of a trick deck by just letting them handle the deck during the routine. Then they just become cool cards.

7) Someone shouting out 'It's a trick deck' is exactly the same as some youtube watching heckler shouting out 'It's a double lift' when you're holding one card. You can easily prove them wrong and once silenced that objection is seldom raised again. I'd argue that even if someone does say, "TRICK DECK" if you prove them wrong, they at that point are more accepting of the act.

Wow - where do I start with you - I appreciate your imput - and if I had more energy to educate you - this wouldn't be such a daunting task. I will still try...this will be a longer one.

1) They don't earn enough money to call themselves pros - but can spend twice as much on a deck of cards that will arouse suspicion? Hmm.

2) Having them look at the deck to avoid them thinking it is a "trick deck" is like having a girl look at your penis for herpes on the first date - just to get thoughts of STD's out of the way. Awkward. Seriously though, that limits the effects you can open with, because you have them look at a deck...and really, they don't know what to look for - they just know the backs are different. This is what it boils down to - I don't recognize the back...they could be marked in a way I don't know how to look for.

3) I have never been called out on a trick deck...even when it way - with a red or blue deck. My magic can't be done with trick decks - people can realize that - however, my concern isn't once I start - it is before I start. Again - you are creating a wall, where there doesn't need to be one.

4) I find it odd that you don't think my arguments are well supported, when I am having to repeat myself and think for you - why do you think pros use red back bikes? I bet if you asked many working magicians what they use - red backed bikes, would be the answer. Actually, every guy I know uses red bikes...and a green marker - but that is another story. I realize you are basing it on your micro-experience, but to say I haven't supported my arguments is a bit off putting - when you really have only attacked mine. I will agree with this - the point that most pro's use red...and most gimmicks are made to be sold in red is because the mass production of them...yep...sure...it isn't because a guy wants to move his product and knows that most pros use red bikes, so they want to maxamize their profits by only making 50% of the colour. Repeating myself again - the fact that you haven't been "called out" on the trick deck thinking - STATISTICS SHOW THAT ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE SPEAK THEIR MIND - so many could have thought it, but not want to hurt your feelings. It is like thinking that every trick you do, you don't flash if people don't say anything? Tell you what - start asking people you do magic for? See what responses you get. Just because it doesn't match your experience, doesn't mean the issue isn't real - it is like the men that say, "I don't beat my wife" so the issue of battered spouses is a non-issue - start thinking of the big picture.

5) Having to spell out my point - a magician is only good if the audience trusts what he does and says - so he can lie to them. You are going to have to understand this on a broader sense - but the deal is this - IF PEOPLE WON'T PUT MONEY - which is close to their hearts - on the belief in the FAIRNESS of your cards...why would they put their heart into the minor miracles you have shown them? I want my audiences to be fooled forever, not walk out and say, "cool, but trick deck - I have a friend that has a deck like that" - or whatever BS out they use. NO OUTS - equals STRONG MAGIC.

6) So to rephrase - the audience is looking forward to being fooled...and doesn't think about method - even if they do - who cares, I am going to overprove something I shouldn't have to overprove usually - but at least I get to use my cool cards. See how novice this sounds? Seriously.

7) When you have to overprove something - or prove that something is inaccurate - you are already on the defensive - Ortiz talks about removing these issues from your magic - beat them to the punch. So instead of starting a few steps behind at the start - use a red deck, remove suspicion and start on even ground.

Here is the thing - I have done magic for a long time as a pro - I get that the new decks are cool to use - but I would say that the argument to use them has ceased at - THEY LOOK COOL - or some variant of that. At least my argument is rooted in deception and critical thinking - so far, the best argument I got for novelty deck is like a girl saying she wants to buy more red shoes, becaues her red shoes don't match her dress.

I get it - they look pretty - so pretty they draw attention - and most times, the cards aren't that great to use.

Use what you want - but I practice with novelty decks - and always have cards in hand at work, walking through the mall, movies theatre - people will say this - COOL CARDS - I say, "thanks" - the next words out of their mouths before they have seen anything is - is it a trick deck? I will start a poll - let us see if my experience is the exception to the rule.

Ortiz does a poker deal where there is a Jona card - he rearranged the cards so that someone could mistakenly ask for the card that wasn't offered - in decades, no one ever asked - but he did it JUST IN CASE - one day, the person asked - and he could say SURE TAKE THE CARD. If he didn't plan for it - that one performance would have been bad. So out of 1000 performances of this effect...he was worried about that one - this is what makes him consistantly good - a living legend in magic.

If you don't think it is an issue that ONE person has asked, "is that a trick deck", maybe you aren't worried about that 1 in a 1000 - I do worry about that guy - and I do believe that is what seperates good from great. I think if you have been asked - even once - there is an issue that can be avoided...but, we all have different standards - who am I to ask you to raise them.

 

[Steerpike]

As a friend, I'll forego my usual approach.

There is a lot to be argued about the idea of appealing to everyone versus a niche. And I have yet to come across someone who said that appealing to literally everyone is a good idea. If you're working the corporate market, you wear suits and have immaculate grooming. If you're working the Goth clubs in Manhattan, you need to have at least a little spookiness in the look.

No matter what you do, how you dress, everyone is going to have an impression of you, and they're not all going to be the same. What you want is to put the right impression across to the right people. My rocker look may alienate people running Fortune 500's, but I'm not going after that market so it doesn't matter.

And you mention Paul Green's branding. Who's to say the monochromatic color schemes in most of my outfits aren't the same tactic? I use Ghosts when they match my outfit, otherwise I use standard red and blue bikes. You've seen my website. I favor very simple but striking color schemes as an aesthetic choice in my movies, my web design, and in my appearances. The reason I pay attention to my appearance is because there are few things that piss me off more than the anti-image mentality. It's even more pretentious than the people who care about nothing but image, and ever since I joined the artistic community I've had it rammed down my throat.

And I don't believe that one's image and magic need be in conflict. However, magicians (and artists in general for that matter) often make it so. I seek to achieve a synergy between the artistic merit of the performance and my personal aesthetics, which as you probably know is a really fruity way of saying that the look matches the act. I do not believe that aesthetics and practicality are mutually exclusive or even in opposition by nature.

 

[Steerpike]

If you don't think it is an issue that ONE person has asked, "is that a trick deck", maybe you aren't worried about that 1 in a 1000 - I do worry about that guy - and I do believe that is what seperates good from great. I think if you have been asked - even once - there is an issue that can be avoided...but, we all have different standards - who am I to ask you to raise them.

I know you hate when I do this, but I just wanted to highlight this.

I already made clear many times over during my time here how I do think about this and how I've gotten over the problem. That's why I didn't feel the need to bring it up for the umpteenth time, I thought you already knew about it. I didn't want to insult your intelligence by sounding like a broken record.

You said earlier that we have to adapt and not rely solely on archaic methodology. That's what my mentors have taught me, and that's why I so often perform and experiment with unorthodoxy. Experiments don't always work, but that's why they're experiments. There's no way for me to say this without sounding like an egotistical jackass, but the reason I've learned as much as I have in a comparatively short amount of time is because I experiment constantly and then analyze the feedback with a microscope.

In the case of using Ghost decks, I found through trial and error a system that worked for me that allowed me to avoid dealing with suspicion and still maintain my aesthetic choices. Will it work for everyone? Hell no. The point is that I put the effort into trying.

 

[OneCardWonder]

Wow - where do I start with you - I appreciate your imput - and if I had more energy to educate you - this wouldn't be such a daunting task. I will still try...this will be a longer one.

Maybe your 'education' would be easier to accept if you're tone didn't scream *******. I assume that magic is the most important thing to you in your life and so your opinions are strong, however if we were having a discussion about international tax treaty law and you had an opinion I wouldn't belittle it because of my superior levels of education on the subject, nor would I patronize you. Though each to their own, and you to yours.

1) They don't earn enough money to call themselves pros - but can spend twice as much on a deck of cards that will arouse suspicion? Hmm.

Yes....because magic is my sole source of income, lmfao. Have you ever considered a class of magician out there that -has- a full time profession. Mine happens to be contract negotiation in the oil indsutry supported by a substantial amount of time spent at University. Until such time that magic makes me more money than that, it's going to be a hobby that earns me money. As a result of not being a magic busker however I can afford to buy any cards I desire. I'm sure I'm not alone in that, and I'm sure there are many other magicians out there that do well doing other things, and thus don't feel the need to be 'professional' quite as strongly as you do. (Not that I'm saying you're not successful at anything else, but for a lot of people being a 'professional' magician may not be as key to them.)

2) Having them look at the deck to avoid them thinking it is a "trick deck" is like having a girl look at your penis for herpes on the first date - just to get thoughts of STD's out of the way. Awkward. Seriously though, that limits the effects you can open with, because you have them look at a deck...and really, they don't know what to look for - they just know the backs are different. This is what it boils down to - I don't recognize the back...they could be marked in a way I don't know how to look for.

If you can't find a way to naturally run a trick, or modify an effect so the spectator handles the deck when they are selecting their card, then that says -much- more about your performance than it does about the cards. If the spectator is thinking about marked cards, they're thinking about marked bikes too, or any cards. Your Herpes analogy is funny, but misguided. There's nothing awkward about it when I hand a deck to a spectator.

4) I find it odd that you don't think my arguments are well supported, when I am having to repeat myself and think for you - why do you think pros use red back bikes? I bet if you asked many working magicians what they use - red backed bikes, would be the answer. Actually, every guy I know uses red bikes...and a green marker - but that is another story. I realize you are basing it on your micro-experience, but to say I haven't supported my arguments is a bit off putting - when you really have only attacked mine. I will agree with this - the point that most pro's use red...and most gimmicks are made to be sold in red is because the mass production of them...yep...sure...it isn't because a guy wants to move his product and knows that most pros use red bikes, so they want to maximize their profits by only making 50% of the colour.

You ignored my point. The guy producing the gaff isn't aiming at the pro magician necessarily. He's aiming it at the average kid that's into magic that -isn't- a professional magician. Thus they're doing it because red backed bikes are the -easiest- cards to buy on the market. You can get them literally anywhere. Thus, your argument that the gaffs are made in red back bikes is because pros use more red back bikes is misguided, not in the sense that pros don't use red back bikes, but because pros represent a tiny percentage of the magic consuming market out there. There is no doubt about it. If I'm marketing a product to the magic community, my marketing is going to be more concerned with the accessible market than a tiny percentage of working professional magicians out there. Roll into any magic shop and you'll find more non working magicians buying tricks for their kids, than you will pro magicians buying gaffs. Your assumption regarding the influence of professional magicians on the mass magic market are verifiably erroneous and that was my point. Basically, red back bikes aren't used as gaffs because of their magical merit. They're used because anyone that doesn't own them can own them easily and thus can use them. Your earlier post seems to have somewhat directly refuted that point.

How you completely ignoring it qualifies as thinking for me escapes me, but I'm sure you'll re-qualify that with a similarly patronizing and ridiculously personal rant, whether it addresses my point or otherwise.

Repeating myself again - the fact that you haven't been "called out" on the trick deck thinking - STATISTICS SHOW THAT ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE SPEAK THEIR MIND - so many could have thought it, but not want to hurt your feelings. It is like thinking that every trick you do, you don't flash if people don't say anything? Tell you what - start asking people you do magic for? See what responses you get. Just because it doesn't match your experience, doesn't mean the issue isn't real - it is like the men that say, "I don't beat my wife" so the issue of battered spouses is a non-issue - start thinking of the big picture.

Battered spouses, herpes? Taking it a bit to the extreme. My friends are my strongest critics and they call me out on stuff if they spot it routinely and I encourage them to do so. I wait until they tell me I fooled them with an effect before I'd ever perform it anywhere and they know I appreciate that harsh level of criticism, so don't make assumptions about how or when I vet my effects. For me, they don't call me out on a trick deck because they know that it's 1)not and if they ask, I'll give it to them, and 2) the effect that's being performed will oft preclude the usefulness of a trick deck. I'm not saying that I don't run into people that arbitrarily declare everything a trick deck, but in truth I don't care. Maybe that's a bad thing. Maybe I should be worried about those people to be a 'perfect magician' but you're just going to have to deal with the fact that for me magic is a hobby and whilst I give my all to perform and practice, I don't see the deck I choose to use as an issue in the slightest, and you're ridiculously overzealous analogies just aren't resulting in me being moved any closer to agreeing with you.

6) So to rephrase - the audience is looking forward to being fooled...and doesn't think about method - even if they do - who cares, I am going to over prove something I shouldn't have to over prove usually - but at least I get to use my cool cards. See how novice this sounds? Seriously.

Way to completely misrepresent what I said then rebut yourself.

I don't over prove anything, its just a natural thing to do and I do it with red bikes or otherwise. You really underestimate your public if you believe they see red bikes and assume they aren't gaffed. Maybe you just believe that because you've convinced yourself that they think that way, and you haven't been called out on the use of red back bikes because the audience is too polite? I don't know. that's your point.


See once you lost your ******* tone, I actually found myself nodding along with the rest of this post and as from the start concede to your experience and knowledge of magic. I'm not adverse to using red back bikes and do routinely, however I'm also not adverse to using a different deck in the event that the situation calls for it in my opinion.

I don't worry about one person asking. I admit that. Maybe because it's not my profession, and maybe because whilst I strive to be good I'm not deluded enough to believe that I'll ever be an Ortiz, and perhaps why I'll never be you.

My concern with your arguments is they only hold true if you are you, and you behold yourself honestly and frankly to that higher standard. My point is, my standards aren't low, I work hard at my magic because I love it. I love to perform and I love to get reactions and I love to work on it etc. It relieves stress for me. I never perform an effect until I'm 100% sure, and until I tell a magician friend of mine what the trick is and ask him if he spotted the moves, and whether he believes its performable. That's a higher standard than a lot on this forum. Whilst I respect the fact you're blazing the trail and setting an unattainable higher standard, all you're convincing me of is the fact that you have high standards that I genuinely applaud you for, and so by those higher standards, novelty decks may cause a problem.

For the rest of us, they're cool, and one thing you've never acknowledged anywhere is that -image- (other than your fortune 500 esque ideas) matters in marketing magic. Your view of what image is, may differ from someone else's, and whilst your points on performance may be valid they overreach.

 

[smokeandmirrors41]

I say 'if I was trying to use a trick deck, I would make it look as normal as possible' then hand out the deck anyway.

 

[Morgan B]

Maybe your 'education' would be easier to accept if you're tone didn't scream *******. I assume that magic is the most important thing to you in your life and so your opinions are strong, however if we were having a discussion about international tax treaty law and you had an opinion I wouldn't belittle it because of my superior levels of education on the subject, nor would I patronize you. Though each to their own, and you to yours

If you read anything into my tone - it is the fact that I also have a life, but still magic is important to me. Magic is A important thing in my life - I happen to have many. The difference between the two of us, is that I try to keep my uneducated opinions to myself - and learn from someone that has actual experience. I wouldn't walk into a lecture hall and scream out my long winded opinion on what I new very little - so forgive me for feeling like my own long winded rebuttal was a waste of effort in some way...especially when I get a reply like this. I am sorry I didn't coddle you in my reply. I don't think it matters how I speak, when you aren't willing to take time to understand the message.

Yes....because magic is my sole source of income, lmfao. Have you ever considered a class of magician out there that -has- a full time profession. Mine happens to be contract negotiation in the oil indsutry supported by a substantial amount of time spent at University. Until such time that magic makes me more money than that, it's going to be a hobby that earns me money. As a result of not being a magic busker however I can afford to buy any cards I desire. I'm sure I'm not alone in that, and I'm sure there are many other magicians out there that do well doing other things, and thus don't feel the need to be 'professional' quite as strongly as you do. (Not that I'm saying you're not successful at anything else, but for a lot of people being a 'professional' magician may not be as key to them.)

Another misguided assumption by you - hmm - well, I paid my way through College and University - obtaining my Masters in Behavioural Psychology - I used ONLY close up magic to do so - not stage or kid shows - so I don't have an opinion on what I don't do. Moreover, I started my own business where we take investments and use the interest to create social change projects. Lastly, I am a high grossing Financial Planner that works many hours during the week - but still keeps a few restaurants on the side (one 5 star gourmet restaurant and a corporate family restaurant) - I am madly in love with my High School Sweetheart and yep - magic was the way I achieved all that - as my family made 19 000 a year for a family of 4 and was in massive debt...so magic saved me from living that life.

You got one thing right - I do take my magic seriously, but my audiences appreciate the level of magic they get. I have spent personal time teaching and learning beside the greats in magic. In short - I have studied magic for 13 years this year - and I have studied it hard. I am a successful man for a reason.

I have a playing card collection in the 100's and have EVERY deck offered on the market and not on the market - including bordered Bees given to me by Mike Weber and a bunch of Nuggets given to me by Lee. So, it is not that I don't like them - I just choose to use a deck that is unassuming.

If you can't find a way to naturally run a trick, or modify an effect so the spectator handles the deck when they are selecting their card, then that says -much- more about your performance than it does about the cards. If the spectator is thinking about marked cards, they're thinking about marked bikes too, or any cards. Your Herpes analogy is funny, but misguided. There's nothing awkward about it when I hand a deck to a spectator.

The awkwardness is that you are obligated to hand it out...I don't have to. Nobody thinks marked deck until they see a deck that is not recognizable.

You ignored my point.

Yep, I did - because I wonder how many guys you know that have mass produced gimmicks? Josh Jay made his overlap gimmick, because he uses red...most guys make their gimmicks for themselves and sell them as a plus. I get your point - more red decks, more sales changes - but every pro I have spoken with about deck choice has told me why - really, how many guys...whose tricks you do - have you spoken to on this subject? Because, I have spoken to many - I find it an interesting subject. However, I find it amazing that so many on this forum defend their right to use an unknown deck and think it has no impact...I also find it amazing that you think this is a key point to my argument, and overlooked the others. This is a small point, perhaps moot as well - but Daryl...YOU know, FISM winner for his ACR - he said to me, "real pro's use red decks" - there was more to that, but I am sure you will dismiss it.

I don't over prove anything, its just a natural thing to do and I do it with red bikes or otherwise. You really underestimate your public if you believe they see red bikes and assume they aren't gaffed. Maybe you just believe that because you've convinced yourself that they think that way, and you haven't been called out on the use of red back bikes because the audience is too polite? I don't know. that's your point.

Yes, it is very "normal" to have someone examine a deck..I constantly go around and examine things that are normal? Actually, I never underestimate my audience, but I do magic that can't be explained by trick cards. Trick cards wouldn't be able to accomplish what I show them. You see - this is where our standards differ perhaps. Also, I talk to my audiences like intelligent people - I acutally talked to a few today about this topic...oddly, for you maybe, they agreed - and told me stories on how they have seen guys with different decks and it made them suspcious. When I asked them my they didn't think my cards were tricky...they said a few things, "I can buy your cards at the corner store" and another said, "How could a trick deck do (recaps effect)".


Here is the thing - my ****** tone comes from constantly having to educate - and now I got Steerpike on my butt claiming that it is cool he uses Novelty decks - the truth is - it may work for him...hell, the way he tells it - everything up for him is down, and everything down is up - so I don't pretend to know. But I do know this - I have spoken to many people on this, what seems like a trivial, subject....and the answer - well, I told you. I shared - and then have to defend MY EDUCATION on the topic...not my opinion, but the opinion of many.

What would it take for you to change your mind? Your audience telling you? How often would they need to tell you? Would it matter to you - would you really listen? Don't wait for them to ask - ask them - and come back and bow to me if I am right....if I am wrong, I will eat crow. I am pretty confident though - as I have done the foot work to see what people think. So SCREW me for sharing.

I think we should all raise our level of deception - if I didn't do magic professionally still, I would still want to be great. It is like doing music (playing guitar) as a hobby, after touring with a band...but not caring if you hit all the right notes.

My view of image is only realated to how it impacts your audience - not how cool it makes me look.

However, you have convinced me of one thing. I am done sharing in this forum. If I am alone in my standards, and have cop outs when we discuss what is good for magic and what is bad - then I am wasting me time. I find it sad that you spend so much effort on your magic, to dismiss something as small as what deck to use. Wouldn't it suck if you put all that time into doing a good effect - and it was flawless, but using a novelty deck allowed them a mental out.

Again - a mental out means no magic - I have seen people EAT UP Copperfield's show live...to walk out and dismiss much of it. That magic was gone and soon as they found a half baked solution. Smoke, mirrors, stooges...much was true - but in the end, at least he didn't use a novelty deck doing Grandpa's Aces.

The odd part was - I wasn't pissed, just frustrated I had to write so much to try and help - now I am upset - upset that your ego got in the way of seeing the message at the start, that my time is once again wasted.

So you know what - **** me - **** my advice - **** this forum - **** novelty decks. Who cares? In the end - this forum doesn't help people, it just allows them to be pricks to one another. Truthfully, do magic the way you want - if you think your deck looking pretty is essential to your show, to the point you would risk them thinking it is a trick effect (SURE- **** - STEERPIKE IS EXCLUDED FROM THIS CONCEPT) then you are limiting yourself in your growth - but don't ask me anymore about what deck - GO ASK someone you obviously respect more - **** - if someone from this site that you look up to said Novelty decks suck for the same reason, half the kids on this site would sell their collection on ebay.

Yeah - I do live by higher standards - but I have walked in your shoes, I have used Novelty decks, and have talked to those that have - again - way to shoot the messenger!

Good luck with your magic.

 

[Morgan B]

I say 'if I was trying to use a trick deck, I would make it look as normal as possible' then hand out the deck anyway.

(CLAPPING HANDS SLOWLY)

So - you are using a novelty deck - or whatever - and you have an indifferent colour card on the bottom...or as a cover card for a colour changing deck - they ask you that question.

How do you deal with it then..."ummm, you can look at them...LATER"

Awesome advice - why didn't I think of it.

 

[Randy]

For me the cards don't really matter. I mean if your goal is to simply entertain them, then you CAN point out things like a marked deck or whatever. Hell even if you did, not many people would believe the things you can do with a marked or gimmick deck.

The only problem I have with most custom decks is that you can't do things like the Color Changing deck routine. I know that it's pretty much impossible to do brainwave with a black or white ghost deck. But you can do it with a Red or Blue bike deck.

 

[Steerpike]

Here is the thing - my ****** tone comes from constantly having to educate - and now I got Steerpike on my butt claiming that it is cool he uses Novelty decks - the truth is - it may work for him...hell, the way he tells it - everything up for him is down, and everything down is up - so I don't pretend to know....

(SURE- **** - STEERPIKE IS EXCLUDED FROM THIS CONCEPT)

Dude... Calm down, I wasn't out to attack you. I don't know what I did to be put in the crosshairs, but Jesus!