Criss Angel steals effect and markets it...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
JetEyeNight and Brad -

Your hatred and jealousy reeks with every post. The funny thing is; when I perform for people and they talk about Criss Angel, I'm the first to tell them that he isn't on the same level as David Copperfield and the like.

So, b - when are you putting out your dvd on mind reading since you think you can reach into my head and tell me how I am feeling?

I will type this slowly, as clearly you have a difficult time understanding, I am not jealous of Criss. And I hardly hate him. Hate is not the opposite of love. That's indifference, which is closer to how I feel.

Now, when you hear of friends being threatened with lawsuits by Criss after they signed their own tv deal, it might make you dislike the man - but hate?

When you hear about Criss threatening to punch out reporters and when you are in the audience and he calls you a bunch of f-ers, it may lead you to think he is classless, but hate?

And when you hear that his lead consultant was fired because he didn't praise Criss enough in a story not about Criss, but about himself - you may come to think of him as an egotistical ass, but again, why hate someone who is already the butt of the joke?

However, if you and Brad believe Criss is really such a horrible magician, then I invite you to show us how to do it. I would like to see national reviews about you that says, "These guys are what magicians should be all about"..

Again, I'll make it easy for you:

How many food critics are chefs? How many film critics write and or direct movies? How many literary critics are best selling authors?

If doing something is required in order to be a critic, then I don't know why you are typing - because until you jump the hurdles you are setting out forothers, you can't praise Criss or condemn him - that's criticism too.

You clearly have no idea how either the entertainment or artistic worlds work. (If you did, then you would know what industry insiders think of Criss.)

This is a bogus argument which, along with sour grapes, are the last refuse of those who can no longer defend their position with logic or facts.

Give me a link. I doubt you guys could perform for 1500...much less 15,000..

Never performed for 15,000. 1,500 is a crowd a see fairly regularly. Worked for about 5,000 people over the past two weekends. That was a total of 7 shows though.

How many did you do?

And why would that even matter?


If all it takes to be a good magician is camera tricks, why aren't you guys famous?
.

Because we DON'T use camera tricks . . . duh

.
If all it takes is for a girl to develop early, why aren't all hot girls famous like Spears was in her day?.

Because she had better management

You see...what we can learn from people who make it is that they have an "IT Factor", an ability to connect with the audience. That's what we can learn from Criss. You guys can't do it. Brad...how long have you been at this? Why haven't you made it? Because you "don't want to"? Please..

Was it Criss's IT factor that had the Believe audience walking out before the final trick was over? Was it Criss's IT factor is has him relegated to a cable tv series? More people would have seen a single Copperfield special than an entire Mindfreak series. Was it Criss's IT factor that has made him a laughing stock on the Vegas strip?

I am sure some people love Criss. I understand that he tests well with teens and middle aged women. Personally, I don't find a 40+ year old man who lisps about while wearing outfits tacky on a 16 year old to be IT, but to each their own. Heidi and Stewart apparently have the IT factor, they are famous - but talented?

If you want to say Criss is famous, yes, I agree - in a cable tv c list sort of way. But being famous and being talented are NOT the same thing.

I DON'T care about being famous.

No one outside of magic ever heard of Vernon - so should he get a smaller section in the history books because he wasn't "famous" like Criss.

But I digress.

The question you ask though requires us to define "making it." I will never have a Vegas show. My type of material is not suited to that. Nor will I likely have my own tv special , as I have no desire to play those games nor do I have the money behind me like Criss did. (Heard interesting stories re TV guide coverage, know anything about that? Of course you don't.) And I have no desire to promise more than I can possibly deliver and be forced to pretend I'm a magician, presenting material I could never hope to perform publicly under normal conditions. Oh, and I never embarrassed an organization like cirque so much that they decided to pull out all the elements in my production, which is what they seem to be doing.

Nope, by those standards, I haven't made it.

Now, it was nice when I was asked to come on to the world's largest privately owned yacht over New Year's in St Barth's. Hanging with Russell Simmons, Jay Z, Beyonce, Jon Bovi, and others was cool. It's always fun to do magic for that type of crowd. Oh - and it was fun producing and performing a show at a secret air base outside of Moscow. And yes, getting to handle Robert Houdin's original props while in Paris was pretty cool. Now, three trips for shows in Vegas in the past two months was a bit tiring, but seeing Bill Clinton at one of my events was neat I suppose.

So, I guess you're right, I haven't made it.

What have you done lately?

I mean, if I can't criticize Criss without having achieved his successes, should you be allowed to say anything about me without having gone at least as far as I have?

Who are you again?

That's what I thought.

But again, I ask, why would that mean anything?

How about you JetEyeNight? Show me what it takes then to "connect with thousands" if you don't think Criss can do it.

Ironically, I'm not a huge Criss Angel supporter....this is more of a knock on how attitudes like yours keep our community down. Criss has done more for the perception of magic then you guys will ever do in 20 lifetimes because you guys can't connect with people. That's what we can learn. Magic isn't suppose to be serious...it's entertainment and that's what you guys have lost sight of.

First, we do not know yet what impact Criss or Blaine will have. It's too soon to tell. Has he done good for magic? Well, I see talk show hosts and adult animation series making fun of him on a pretty regular basis.

I don't know any successful adult who thinks that a 40 year old man in leather pants is any kind of cool.

Likewise, as Criss's name has become synonymous with camera tricks, I cannot see how any history of magic will ever see him for anything more than the media whore celebrity he is/was.

Now, I am particularly intrigued how you, a young man who clearly has done so much in his career, have come to the determination of what magic is, can and should be.

Magic is not supposed to be serious, but entertainment.

Movies can be serious, but not magic? Plays can be serious, but not magic? TV shows can be serious, but not magic?

This is based on what? History of magic? Current trends?

Does this even reflect an understanding of what constitutes entertainment?

Does this make you wonder why magic is constantly kept at the bottom of the food chain? I hardly ever see serious magic. Could that be why?

DO you think before you type?

I guess Ricky Jay's award winning shows that have been heralded in theatrical and artistic circles throughout the world have somehow failed in your eyes to measure up to the man whose Vegas show is heralded by cabbies and critics everywhere (lay people, mind you) as one of the worst shows in the history of the Strip.

Glad you are here to put us on the right track.

One of those two men are being taken seriously - not so ironically, the one who takes his art seriously.

Look, kid. The Angel love is cute. And it's ok to love him. But let's not ignore the facts. Let's not put blinders on.

Criss Angel is a celebrity. His most recent attempt at a live shows was a critical flop (by REAL critics) so much so that he seemingly had to misrepresent tickets sales on talk show appearances. I was there the week he claimed he was playing to 108% sales, or some nonsense. Not nearly a full house and my row, and others near me, were empty.

He is a shameless self promoter who will stop at nothing to be famous.

Good for him.

Just as there are talentless actors who are famous, and talentless singers who are famous, and even talentless comedians who are famous - there is now a talentless magician who is famous.

Criss is a famous magician.

Good for him.

Want to learn how to be famous - look and learn.

Want to learn how to be talented - well, that's another story, now isn't it?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jun 6, 2010
185
0
Las Vegas, NV
Lets get back to magic and stop talking about TV?
I agree. C'mon guys, everyone is going to have their opinion about Angel and his fame but we can also move forward and focus on our own magic. If you like like him, great, if you don't, great. Agree to disagree and let's move on.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
I agree. C'mon guys, everyone is going to have their opinion about Angel and his fame but we can also move forward and focus on our own magic. If you like like him, great, if you don't, great. Agree to disagree and let's move on.

Why?

Discussing what makes someone awful or great has value - assuming you can point to specifics and facts to back up your position.

You can chat online and work on your own magic. I'm writing an entirely new show for my summer tour but find these moments to be pleasant diversions.

But agreeing to disagree is a cop out especially when the other side has failed to address any real issue or offer any evidence or proof beyond platitudes and thinly veiled ad hominem attacks.

Sorry, not going to agree to disagree with that.

If it bothers you, don't read the posts.

See - easy!
 
Aug 14, 2009
98
0
Behind a mask
Well one thing is for sure, Brad pretty much pwned almost every post defending/justyfing Criss Angel, I would understand why some people want to see this case closed but I'm pretty curious to see if someone here ACTUALLY HAS a good argument against what Brad just putted out in the table.

I haven't read such a interesting debate in here for some time now. I dear hope it doesn't gets closed.
 
May 9, 2008
603
0
Nothing I could say could really ever top what Brad has already said. Really nice post Brad.


I agree. C'mon guys, everyone is going to have their opinion about Angel and his fame but we can also move forward and focus on our own magic. If you like like him, great, if you don't, great. Agree to disagree and let's move on.

I respect you Mr. Draven, and I understand what you're saying, but I can't agree to disagree in this situation. I'd prefer to continue the discussion. I find this discussion entertaining and I think it's been the best one on the subject yet in my time at theory11. I like to see 2 sides argue their point to a conclusion. I'm an open-minded individual and if you can provide evidence to support your side of the argument that makes me want to change my opinion on the subject, I'll change my opinion. However, so far nothing of what b_08 has said has held any weight, as he has been really off the mark. I feel that b_08 has clearly not been reading anything I or Brad have discussed. "Your hatred and jealousy reeks with every post"?? Seriously? I guess he missed the post where I said I wouldn't mind being Criss Angel's friend. I've said many times that I don't hate the man and jealousy has nothing to do with it. I wish Criss the best. That's NOT the issue.

What the issue is he has become successful by doing effects that could never be replicated in front of a live audience. These effects would otherwise be impossible without camera tricks, editing, and stooges.

Exhibit A. "Levitating" above the Luxor. (editing)

Exhibit B. Walking on water (stooges)

Exhibit C. Hypnosis Levitation (stooges)

Exhibit D. Building Implosion (editing)

Exhibit E. Vanishing Under Garbage Can Appearing on Roof (editing)

Exhibit F. Climbing Out of Manhole, then Rolling up Manhole (camera tricks)

ect, ect, ect.

These are just the ones off the top of my head.

Only by promising to do what no other magician could do and by delivering on those promises with the use of accomplices, stooges, camera tricks and editing, which are not repeatable in front of a live audience, has Criss Angel become famous. The ends don't justify the means, IMO.

When given the opportunity to do LIVE performaces (Believe) the reviews were anything but flattering. In fact, they were horrible. The show was a flop.

IMO, Criss Angel is NOT good for magic. Why? One day people will come to expect too much from magicians. They will expect to see the kind of magic which is only possible on TV. I don't want to see copycats of Criss Angel. When I watch TV specials, I want to see magic, not special effects.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm not going to defend Criss. And after reading Brad's post up there, I'm not exactly finding myself too much a fan of Brad's either at this exact moment in time.

The line about "Who are you? That's what I thought" just isn't setting well with me right now. I may feel differently come morning, I've had a fairly rough, and long day.

Even if B_08 was missing the point, I think that was just a bit too harsh for polite debate.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Draven Actually I was trying to point out a performative contradiction in b's philosphical stance.

He claims we cannot be critical of criss without having also achieved his success. Yet he is being critical not only of criss (albeit with positive comments) but of me - which should require him having achieved MY success.

But ultimately, it is the sentence which follows that matters (and draven missed) which is 'why would it matter'?

It doesn't.

If you have a position and can back it up with appeal to fact or logic then it is a valid one (even if others disagree) regardless of who you are and what you've done.

Pretending to be able to read someones mind, accusing them of jealousy or spouting the preposterous belief that one has to be something to be allowed to critize something is NOT backing up a position with facts or logic.

It is a baseless, meaningless ad hominem attack.

THAT was my point
 
Feb 16, 2009
217
0
South Bend, IN
Draven Actually I was trying to point out a performative contradiction in b's philosphical stance.

He claims we cannot be critical of criss without having also achieved his success. Yet he is being critical not only of criss (albeit with positive comments) but of me - which should require him having achieved MY success.

But ultimately, it is the sentence which follows that matters (and draven missed) which is 'why would it matter'?

It doesn't.

If you have a position and can back it up with appeal to fact or logic then it is a valid one (even if others disagree) regardless of who you are and what you've done.

Pretending to be able to read someones mind, accusing them of jealousy or spouting the preposterous belief that one has to be something to be allowed to critize something is NOT backing up a position with facts or logic.

It is a baseless, meaningless ad hominem attack.

THAT was my point

Viewed from a purely logical standpoint, I would say that Brad wins this thread.

However, this thread devolved from being about an overpriced one trick DVD released by Criss Angel to all kinds of other things (like the kind of sexual action Criss Angel gets and why the rest of the magic community are losers who are jealous of him and so on ad nauseum).

Next time I hope people will stick to the topic.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
this thread devolved ... to all kinds of other things (like the kind of sexual action Criss Angel gets...
Next time I hope people will stick to the topic.

but when it comes to discussing what criss is really about- isn't that kind of thing really the topic?

B apparently thinks so.

Celebrity is what celebrity does.

Anyone seen kim kardashian's boobs lately?
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
but when it comes to discussing what criss is really about- isn't that kind of thing really the topic?

B apparently thinks so.

Celebrity is what celebrity does.

Anyone seen kim kardashian's boobs lately?

Brad,

Don't think I haven't noticed your affinity for Kim Kardashian's boobs. I believe that's the second time you've mentioned her in a post. :p

~prae
 
Apr 27, 2010
229
0
baller08.blogspot.com
Now, it was nice when I was asked to come on to the world's largest privately owned yacht over New Year's in St Barth's. Hanging with Russell Simmons, Jay Z, Beyonce, Jon Bovi, and others was cool. It's always fun to do magic for that type of crowd. Oh - and it was fun producing and performing a show at a secret air base outside of Moscow. And yes, getting to handle Robert Houdin's original props while in Paris was pretty cool. Now, three trips for shows in Vegas in the past two months was a bit tiring, but seeing Bill Clinton at one of my events was neat I suppose.

Thanks Brad...I knew someone like you would eventually have to brag and that simply proves all the points I needed. Like I said before, if anyone of you had Criss's opportunities you wouldn't remember how to spell T11.

You think lisiting what you did makes you somebody....that's why you did it.....and I agree. How many of those events do you think Criss has done? How many "Magician of the Year" awards has he won? So if in listing your accomplishments you're trying to show us all how great you are.....what does that say about Criss's experiences?

You know Brad...you remind me of those who critized Magic Johnson for everything he did during his first few years with the Lakers. Then he was a legend.

Then those same people critized Michael Jordan for not being Magic. Then he was a god.

Now those same people are hurling insults at Kobe Bryant for not being Jordan. Now LeBron James is not Kobe. It's laughable. You come up with rumors and heresay and call it "fact and logic".

The fact is....people like you are bitter that you've worked as hard as you have and someone like Criss surpasses you in a quarter of that time. (I'm sure he's met Jay Z on a boat before....LOL!).

I'm sure Criss will burn out in another 4 or 5 years, which will make his run only about a decade or so. Then we'll wait another 2 decades for the next famous magician and you can start your hate all over again and feel better about yourself.

So you say you've been performing for 15,000 every summer and you've listed all the invitations you've had. So I ask you again, show me a national review on how you've represented the best of magicians. Why hasn't anyone "put good management" or money behind you? Could it be that you just don't have that "It Factor"? Till you can do that, you're just like me....another guy with an opinion on a message board. Only difference is, my jealousy for everyone famous isn't spilling over.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Apr 27, 2010
229
0
baller08.blogspot.com
Since this topic is on a downward spiral...

Proof that Criss's demographic is middle-aged women. (Criss is also middle-aged at 42, so this makes sense)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3UxrAE_aUY&feature=related

Can't wait to be on Ellen so I can "Make it". Criss is more of a sex symbol to these people than a magician or "MindFreak".

Are you seriously critizing someone for being on the Ellen show? Are you seriously making "sex symbol" a negative thing? LOL!

Wow. Stay in your basement why don't you.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Thanks Brad...I knew someone like you would eventually have to brag and that simply proves all the points I needed. Like I said before, if anyone of you had Criss's opportunities you wouldn't remember how to spell T11.

You think lisiting what you did makes you somebody....that's why you did it.....and I agree. How many of those events do you think Criss has done? How many "Magician of the Year" awards has he won? So if in listing your accomplishments you're trying to show us all how great you are.....what does that say about Criss's experiences?

You know Brad...you remind me of those who critized Magic Johnson for everything he did during his first few years with the Lakers. Then he was a legend.

Then those same people critized Michael Jordan for not being Magic. Then he was a god.

Now those same people are hurling insults at Kobe Bryant for not being Jordan. Now LeBron James is not Kobe. It's laughable. You come up with rumors and heresay and call it "fact and logic".

The fact is....people like you are bitter that you've worked as hard as you have and someone like Criss surpasses you in a quarter of that time. (I'm sure he's met Jay Z on a boat before....LOL!).

I'm sure Criss will burn out in another 4 or 5 years, which will make his run only about a decade or so. Then we'll wait another 2 decades for the next famous magician and you can start your hate all over again and feel better about yourself.

So you say you've been performing for 15,000 every summer and you've listed all the invitations you've had. So I ask you again, show me a national review on how you've represented the best of magicians. Why hasn't anyone "put good management" or money behind you? Could it be that you just don't have that "It Factor"? Till you can do that, you're just like me....another guy with an opinion on a message board. Only difference is, my jealousy for everyone famous isn't spilling over.

You're kidding, right? If you don't know of Brad, you must be intentionally ignorant, or living under a rock.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
b,

So, why are you afraid to talk about criss. You say he's great but refuse to address any of the points. I and others have raised instead you tell us we aren't allowed to say anything because we haven't 'made it'.

To be honest, I don't know what it means to have 'made it'. A national review? Criss has many. Most (the ones he didn't pay for) are negative.

Again, are you saying fame is the single factor to having 'made it?'

I don't know, because you refuse to discuss criss, you seem to want to make this about every else BUT criss.

So, I list a handful of things I have done. Do any of them matter?

Well, if you read and UNDERSTOOD my post or the ones following, you would know they don't.

I've done some cool things. Most of my friends in magic have done equally cool things.
All in all, they are simply gigs I managed to score. Gigs anyone else may have been able to get, but I was the one.

Do they mean I 'made it?'

Who the **** cares?

Doesn't change a thing, either what I say is true about criss or it isn't. I've backed up what I've said with what I know. You have only tried to descredit us because we haven't become the laughing stock of the vegas strip.

If that's what it takes to 'make it' then I'd rather just do good card tricks.

And again!p, You refuse to address two key points; in what field are the critics required to have done what the people they write about have done? You seem to think only those who have done what criss has done - become synonymous with camera tricks, for example - should be allowed to offer criticism. By that logic, you should not be allowed to say positive things about criss because clearly you can't understand, where are your national reviews, good or bad? If our position makes us, as you put it 'haters' who are jealous, wouldn't the fact that you haven't 'made it' make you nothing more than a 'fanboy' who is sucking up, naive in the belief that someday people will want to hear your lisp?

See - mind reading is fun. ..And it's also groundless, baseless, presumptuous and more often wrong than right.

If you want this to be a 'criss is more famous than you' thread, I concede. But that doesn't mean he is talented or good for magic.

You refuse to address the issue of talent v celebrity which I have raised.

If you want to discuss that, let's. I've given plenty of opinions backed up with facts and logic. Are you afraid to?

You have given us what? An argument abandoned by sentient adults who know it is fallacious to believe critics must have done what they criticize?

Second, by YOUR logic, you have no right to criticize me or what I write. I mean, unless you've done what I've done, you must just be a jealous hater.

You're jealous that I get to fly and do shows, you're a hater because I get to perform for hot women in exotic locals, you can't stand me because I've performed at the magic castle and once did magic for muhammed ali.

See how silly and stupid that sounds?

I'll type it again unless draven missed it, see how SILLY and STUPID that sounds?

That's the only point you have tried to make. And as jeteye and I have stated, we don't begrudge any talented magician their success. I think derren is great. Louis is an artist. Juan is a god. Maric was ballsy. Sakai evilly clever.

All of these people are more famous to more people (in their own regions) than Criss is. They have performed for more people than criss has. Many of them have achieved a solid level of success and celebrity in their regions backed with near universal (or at least mostly positive) public praise and critical acclaim. And their magic awards don't come from hassini's ims, which informed magicians know to be some weird pay for play scam that means nothing to anyone.

But you don't know that. Which suggests either ignorance and naivety (which would explain your love for criss) or you have something to gain by promoting it as valid. You might want to find out about these awards before you reference them. At least, if you want to be taken seriously by others who aren't fanboys.

I'm starting to think that other poster may be correct - Do you work with criss? See - I've heard rumors he sends people to defend him on magic forums. Heard that on my last trip in vegas.

As to the basketball references, you are way off base. I know nothing about any of them. I know Magic had aides and a talk show, kobe was sued for allegedly raping a girl, and jordan had a steak house, appeared in a movie with bugs bunny and sells nikes.

I can't comment on basketball. Don't know anything about it. So, you can't say I was 'one of those people'. I wasn't. Not by any stretch. (Fun to be wrong, isn't it?)

But I do know a bit about magic. More than some, less than some.

I actually care about magic - unlike criss who will obscure credits and destroy the trust built over decades between telvision viewers and the magician for his own personal glorification. I visit a handful of forums because some of them have solid information and some to look out for misinformation.

Just because someone has an internet account does not make them a magician. I see lots of people spout nonsense devoid of fact, logic, and experience.

I feel it does magicians, especially young ones, a disservice to leave those meesages uncorrected.

That's what I do here and have been surprised from thenumber of pms and emails thanking me for that.

You claim we can learn from criss

Maybe.

If we want to learn how to be a celebrity, yes. Get some money - again, fun rumours about the source - to buy cover stories and tv time, hire publicists, stage relationships, and offer up something that won't challenge the slowest and lowest of demographics - you too can be. a reality star, er, I mean famous magicin.

Notice I didn't say 'good' magician.

Most good magician can do tricks in one take, in front of non-screened audience members, without the need of an editing bay.

I'm trying to keep this about magic and criss.

You don't seem to want to talk about that.

Do you do magic? How long? Do you know anything about magic, other than what criss taught you on tv?

I ask not to embarass or make this about you, but to try to understand your reluctance and inability to talk about MAGIC and not me --- wait, maybe you ARE criss?!?

How bout we talk about criss and the points raised concerning him?

Can you do that Or does that frighten you?

Or will you keep trying to make this about us?

Are you a hater?

(See, still stupid and silly)

Talk about criss, defend your position with facts and logic or go hide back under your bridge with the rest of the trolls.
 

S.G

Feb 9, 2010
664
1
Holy crap these are long posts! How long does it take you guys to type these? That last post right above mine by Brad was 1,216 words! Anyway though, Brad wins. Almost half of B's arguments have been completely useless and the other half, Brad completely crushed. I think that this is over.

-G
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
And to think - I wrote it all on my blackberry!

Just heared I won 'forum poster of the century' from ims. So now none of you can ever say anything about what I write because none of you have that award - right,b? That's how it works, yeah?

Ha ha

I kid.

I wouldn't pay someone to give me an award.

Just another difference between criss and me I suppose.

Thanks for the kind words.

Brad
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results