Erdnase vs. The cardists

[VanishedAce]

"To be suspected of skill is the death blow of the professional"- S. W. Erdnase.

I'm just wondering- How do YOU reconcile the high-flying card juggling with The Expert at The Card Table and Dai Vernon saying "LOOK NATURAL!"
I have no beef with flourishes myself, I'm just wondering what your views on the separation are.

 

[yyyyyyy]

Both of those statements are irrelevant to flourishing as a general subject. Vernon was a magician, he was trying to fool an audience. Displaying skill would compromise the "Magic" feel and provide a blanket statement explanation for the entire show. Erdnase was a card mechanic, he wasn't even referring to flourishing. He was referring to any conspicuous card maneuver. He had to perform perfectly or he would be killed. Magicians and Flourishers tend to stand for opposite things. Magicians want the deck to take credit for the spectacle, they want to retain the feeling of magic. Flourishers are the other way around, it's about showing skills and taking the credit for themselves. These two groups butt heads every now and then because of these differences, but the common desire that we share is lost in the translation. We both want to entertain people, we just do it in different ways. I don't feel much of a need to reconcile flourishing with Erdnase and Vernon because we're all speaking about different displays of skill; there's no sense in comparing them due to the lack of proper context.

 

[TeeDee]

To my mind, there are two separate issues here.

As Pav says, by "the professional", Erdnase meant a cheat. Of course, if you're working as a professional advantage player then you don't want to start showing off how well you can manipulate a deck of cards before you use similar techniques to fleece your audience.

The other issue is the interpretation of Vernon's maxim, "Be natural and use your head". If your performance character is one who has honed near-superhuman dexterity to the point where you can do apparently miraculous things with a deck of cards then flourishes are absolutely natural, justified and consistent. In fact, it would be odd if you had built up all that dexterity and couldn't pull off at least a few fancy cuts. Essentially, if your character would have learned cardistry then it's absolutely natural to perform some.

 

[VanishedAce]

Yeah, I know Erdnase was a cheat.

That is an excellent point, however with the "you can do miraculous things with a deck of cards" bit- so long as one is the sort who is a sleight based performer.

It seems to me that there is a twofold split in opinions of showing skill based on how people perform: It's either "It's magic and I have nothing to do with it it's in the power of the mystic wand" or "I am a master prestidigitator and my hands are quicker than your eye"
Nowadays most people seem to gravitate more to the second. So I figure that's a good way to think of it TeeDee.

 

[VanishedAce]

I get it Pav. I mean, I have some good friends who are flourishers and do things that shock and amaze me so I enjoy flourishes as much as the next guy (well, watching them. I'm a MAGICIAN magician- I blame the cards for what happens)
I always equate flourishing to quick-change in terms of magic: both are flashy, but are not exactly meant to fool- instead they AMAZE. So I consider comparing pure cardistry with sleights to be two completely different and incomparable things. What I was wondering was how sleights worked in flourishing into their routines.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

What I was wondering was how sleights worked in flourishing into their routines.

It still depends on the character. If your character is flashy, the flourishes fit and they won't stand out or detract. If your character is more 'magical' for lack of a better word, flourishes will detract.

Basically, if your end goal is to claim that you're not physically manipulating the cards, then you shouldn't physically manipulate the cards at any time.

 

[c.t]

I reckon you either perform cardistry like its not hard, you pretend its harder than it is, you have loads of fun doing it or you just look like a bad ass not giving a damn and making every little move smooth and quick

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I reckon you either perform cardistry like its not hard, you pretend its harder than it is, you have loads of fun doing it or you just look like a bad ass not giving a damn and making every little move smooth and quick

Do you realize that this doesn't actually make sense with this thread?

 

[Vinnie C.]

No approach is more "correct" than any other - this is a quality inherent in and vital to any art.

As above, it is entirely dependent on your chosen character and presentation. Some will be suited to the addition of flourishes. Some will not. That comes down to the decision of the performer.

Best,
Vince