Magician Vs. Trick Man

[Mat La Vore]

Is Derren Brown a magician though? His audiences don't think of him as one; he certainly doesn't refer to himself as one. If that's the case, what actually makes him a magician?

Yes, of course he is.

He uses magic principles to create magic effects for the purpose of entertaining his audience--that's his job description--same as all magicians.

And Derren Brown has openly stated he's using magic to accomplish his effects. He's never hidden that.

 

[RealityOne]

i think my main way to know who is a "trick man" from a "magician" is how many tricks they know and how they perform it.. i mean its almost like the same discussion as a difference between a professional and a amateur... i mean a trick man could be anyone barly gettin into magic.. i mean when i first started to learn i wanted to to learn everything at once and go out and perform all of them like i was on stage... but as time went by i found out that the more i learned just tricks and not foundations.. i forgot about the tricks i learned before... so i got into learning foundations into making my own tricks.. i myself do like 10 at most tricks that i have made up from learning basics, slights, and other tricks... ether i have changed a routine or added on to it.. ether way all the stuff i have learned i have adapted to me...

my point in all this.. a trick man can do a lot of tricks, but none of them well.. a magician does a trick and makes that magic... like an amateur... an amateur practices till he can get it right... a professional practices till he cant get it wrong

That's absurd. By your definition you just disqualified Houdini, David Copperfield, Dai Vernon, Derren Brown, David Blaine, etc. as real magicians.

Being a "real magician" has nothing whatsoever to do with how many effects you do or don't know.

I think the famous quote by David Devant is often misconstrued. When the person says he knows hundreds of trick, he is saying he knows the secret to lots of tricks. When Devant replies that he only knows around eight, he is saying that has perfected the performance and presentation of far fewer effects. The difference between a "trickster" and a "magician" is how they define what it means to "know" an effect.

 

[Randomwrath]

Yes, of course he is.

He uses magic principles to create magic effects for the purpose of entertaining his audience--that's his job description--same as all magicians.

And Derren Brown has openly stated he's using magic to accomplish his effects. He's never hidden that.

In regards to the point about magic principles, it could be argued that street con men use magic principles, or that mediums, tarot readers etc use magic principles. That doesn't make them magicians. I suppose that they don't have the intent of entertaining their audiences, but still, whilst he uses some magic methods, the majority of his audience still don't see him as a magician. He doesn't refer to himself as a magician. I'd compare it to an artist that sells his paintings, and somebody that paints walls. They both use the same methods, but they're not the same thing.

 

[Mat La Vore]

I think the famous quote by David Devant is often misconstrued. When the person says he knows hundreds of trick, he is saying he knows the secret to lots of tricks. When Devant replies that he only knows around eight, he is saying that has perfected the performance and presentation of far fewer effects. The difference between a "trickster" and a "magician" is how they define what it means to "know" an effect.

David Devant's statement--with the proper context of how it fits into the original story--holds true. Without putting it into context, though, quoting Devant's line and expecting it to be interpreted in the original way it was intended is just foolish. The only way to communicate the intended meaning of the original quote without simply twisting the semantics it to provide its context.

So, here is the original story as told by Mr. Devant himself from "Lessons in Conjuring":

Some years ago, when I was performing at the old Egyptian Hall twice a day and was in the habit of receiving more offers of private engagements than I could possibly accept, a young conjurer called to see me. I asked him how many tricks he knew. He made a rapid calculation and replied: "About three hundred." I told him that I knew eight tricks myself. He seemed to be very puzzled, but he is puzzled no longer by that reply, for he has since learned wisdom and is now a very popular performer; he now appreciates the difference between knowing how a trick is done and knowing how to do it.

When I told this young conjurer that I knew eight tricks, I meant, of course, that I performed eight tricks. That was quite true. For some years my repertoire consisted of eight tricks, but I knew them thoroughly. I was always ready to show them at any time, at any place, under any conditions. Until a man knows a trick so well that he is always ready to do it when he is called upon for a trick, he does not really know it.

We're on the same page.

In regards to the point about magic principles, it could be argued that street con men use magic principles, or that mediums, tarot readers etc use magic principles. That doesn't make them magicians. I suppose that they don't have the intent of entertaining their audiences, but still, whilst he uses some magic methods, the majority of his audience still don't see him as a magician. He doesn't refer to himself as a magician. I'd compare it to an artist that sells his paintings, and somebody that paints walls. They both use the same methods, but they're not the same thing.

...He's just a magician. A rose by any other name...

 

[ChrisWiens]

There´s another level of communication between a trick man and the audience and a magician and the audience. The communication skills of a magician are, or should be, superior.
For me, a trick man is someone who just does tricks. He doesn´t care much about the audience, the focus is on his tricks and technique (moves/sleights).
A magician is someone who does magic. Magic happens in the mind of the spectator.
He knows how his audience thinks and uses that knowledge (and his skills of course) to his advantage to create a magical moment.

I also don´t think that the amount of tricks someone knows has something to do with that. Most magicians know (but don´t DO, they´re more picky about what to use and what not) more tricks, effects, routines and plots than a normal trick guy. They read a lot and study the art of magic. They´re not just interested in the trick itself.

 

[KeoSilver]

do i offend you? I'm sorry.

No you aren't offending anyone. However, your topic and your blatant intent on it, which was not to really contribute to the magical community at all but to expose people who only perform tricks. Trick men as you call them have a place in magic just like illusionists and move monkeys. The difference between a magician and a trickster is that one is there to give the audience a "Nananabooboo, look what I can do." Kind of message to their audience. Magicians aren't as blatant and disguise the fact that trickery is going on by guiding their participants into believing that something magical is happening in front of them and not something magical happening to them.

Derren Brown I still consider a magician because of his roots in magic and his continued use of such magical techniques in his show. Even though the technique is being cleverly hidden under the guise of "psychology and NLP" it still a magic technique.

Also an interesting side note, since the question about readers, con man and psychics came up. What is the difference between a psychic reader pitching that they are contacting the dead, talking with lost loved ones, etc and a mentalist who is pitching that what they are doing is either paranormal or a mixed cocktail of psychological and NLP technique? Keep in mind the psychic reader is charging the same price as Derren Brown's live show and explicitly states in bold letters that "The psychic will not give ADVICE about medical ailments."

 

[Randy]

Fun Fact: EVERYBODY starts out as a trickster, and then eventually evolves (hopefully) into a magician.

Note how I said "Hopefully". Because not everybody puts a lot of thought and effort into what they do. Some people are happy with learning new tricks/effects every month and, for them learning the moves is just enough because they are simply performing for family or friends.

 

[joshrobarts]

everyone is so caught up in titles and words, trickster, magician, cardist, flourisher, XCMer, Illusionist, Conjuror, its all just words. All that really matters is your intent. If you intend to learn a few tricks and show off then thats what you will do. If you intend to master a craft and create miracles for people and bring them joy then hopefully thats what you will do. People put way to much emphasis on labels these days and its not exclusive to magic. You know what i call myself? Josh, nice to meet you would you like to see something a little strange?

 

[Toby]

I would like to mention, and hear you opinion about the new rising star in magic, that everyone here likes... Calen Morelli. He is going to do 365 tricks in one year, each day one trick. So far, non of those tricks (from presentational aspect) were connecting with the audience. They are very innovative, and I know that he came up with them, kudos on creativity, but audience doesn't know, and probably doesn't care if the trick is yours or you learned it from someone else.
Is Calen a magician or trickster?

 

[Mat La Vore]

I would like to mention, and hear you opinion about the new rising star in magic, that everyone here likes... Calen Morelli. He is going to do 365 tricks in one year, each day one trick. So far, non of those tricks (from presentational aspect) were connecting with the audience. They are very innovative, and I know that he came up with them, kudos on creativity, but audience doesn't know, and probably doesn't care if the trick is yours or you learned it from someone else.
Is Calen a magician or trickster?

Intention is everything.

I think it's obvious his 365 Days of Magic project is very directly an exercise in creativity. To try and judge his project otherwise would just be an exercise in ignorance.

 

[joshrobarts]

again i agree with Mat, its an exercise in creativity, and at the end of that year he can look back, analyze what worked and what didn't and develop further any idea's that truly speak to him. He's not spending 365 days trying to perfect one effect's presentation to a spec, he's trying to develop new effects

 

[Toby]

No, don't get me wrong, we are here on the same page, I'm just asking people who are ready to judge anyone as soon as they get a chance, but when it comes to their "idol" than everything is fine.

What do you have to say about "Transit" then? It's a published effect, performed in front of an audience, with almost no patter/presentation at all?

 

[joshrobarts]

well its always hard to tell with marketed effects. Ive seen several effects that are produced and sold Purposefully limiting the patter and routine shown because the artist wants the consumer to create their own patter, not just use the performers. For example, Wayne Houchin's products, ive seen him perform a few live compared to the ones he teaches.... SOOO different. same with Danny Garcia. So there's that, but in addition you have to admit some effects are designed specifically without patter, for either loud environments or not to muddle the effect. Whether or not those reasons are behind Calen's Transit i dont know, but its also his first commercial release, give the guy some credit, He created a great effect and he's still young. Not to mention a lot of performers work with an effect for YEARS until they have a routine or patter that fits perfectly, Calen came up with this effect within the last few months... Just saying i get where your coming from but i also would cut Calen some slack, Im sure he will only keep moving up.

 

[syne16]

I think the famous quote by David Devant is often misconstrued. When the person says he knows hundreds of trick, he is saying he knows the secret to lots of tricks. When Devant replies that he only knows around eight, he is saying that has perfected the performance and presentation of far fewer effects. The difference between a "trickster" and a "magician" is how they define what it means to "know" an effect.

NICE ONE MAN!. You are definitely a good student in magic. Or I may say a good reader too. ^^.

 

[syne16]

again i agree with Mat, its an exercise in creativity, and at the end of that year he can look back, analyze what worked and what didn't and develop further any idea's that truly speak to him. He's not spending 365 days trying to perfect one effect's presentation to a spec, he's trying to develop new effects

This greatly contradicts the idea of David Devant. As we all see making magic is to train your eyes, mouth, and hands; the as famous houdin said: dexterity dexterity dexterity. The point is that you must practice and perfect one magic at a time before presenting it to the croud. David Devant also popularize his philosophy "I only have 8 magics but with that i can impress audiences, laymen as well as great magicians. Spending time with your effects is the best thing to do rather than formulating something new to you without perfecting the old effects you have.

 

[joshrobarts]

again, it depends on your goal. Creator or performer. Many magician's go through stages of each. Take Wayne Houchin for example, he has taken a break from creating to focus more on performing. But while creating and producing he performed considerably less.