Magicians are like "cover bands"

[WitchDocIsIn]

But still even if a magician only does other people's tricks it's not even close to be like a cover band because when you go do magic. You don't go "Now I'm gonna do this trick created by this man in the year so and so". You take the trick and talk like yourself and act completely different than anyone else.

If only this were universally true. Unfortunately the vast majority of the magicians I've seen do exactly replicate what they see others do. Watch anyone do Sam The Bellhop and I'll bet dollars to donuts they're going to be a Bill Malone clone. When they're not parroting the performer they first saw do the effect, they're just saying whatever it is they are doing. "I take the card and place it in the middle of the deck," as they take the card and place it in the middle of the deck, "Now I snap my fingers," snap their fingers, etc.

There are some performers that are unique, but I'm willing to bet that well over 90% of them are interchangeable, with no real distinct character or personality.

 

[Josh Burch]

It's almost like because people aren't as familiar with our material people think it's okay to copy other peoples stuff. I sent a video to one of my well tenured magic buddies he shocked me. When I told him that I felt like I needed more funny bits in my magic but I didn't think I was that much of a comedian he gave me this tidbit "If you are not a comedy writer steel some from others". I think that mind set can be really dangerous.

 

[Randy]

If only this were universally true. Unfortunately the vast majority of the magicians I've seen do exactly replicate what they see others do. Watch anyone do Sam The Bellhop and I'll bet dollars to donuts they're going to be a Bill Malone clone. When they're not parroting the performer they first saw do the effect, they're just saying whatever it is they are doing. "I take the card and place it in the middle of the deck," as they take the card and place it in the middle of the deck, "Now I snap my fingers," snap their fingers, etc.

There are some performers that are unique, but I'm willing to bet that well over 90% of them are interchangeable, with no real distinct character or personality.

I think the main problem is that a lot of magicians Pro and Amateur just aren't interesting people in general, so they end up hiding behind how good the effect may be as well as hiding behind somebodies else's patter.

Now sometimes, I can see WHY you wouldn't want to alter the scripting of a trick because sometimes with certain effects/routines, the scripting and patter just plain works for it.

Though with Sam the Bellhop, the problem is too many people try ripping off Bill Malone's comedy and tend to fail to realize that he more than likely does not use the same type of humor and jokes professionally, then when he performs for the LL audience. Also the effect works better with him than it does with other people, no matter how talented or funny you are.

 

[Lyle Borders]

One big difference I see here between magicians and cover bands, as has been said, is that cover bands specifically use the name and fame of the artist they are covering as a part of the value of their show. A U2 cover band makes it pretty clear who they are covering, and that will attract some people who like that specific music. Magicians don't tend to rely on the name of the person they are "covering." Instead, they just do the magic. In one way or another, they pretend that the idea was their own (some people more than others.) This is a critical dividing point in the argument.

My two cents.

L

 

[Mike.Hankins]

"If you are not a comedy writer steel some from others".

This bugs me. A ton.

This is what is wrong with the entertainment industry. Not just magic, but performance art altogether. But, since this is a magic forum, and we are discussing magic, allow me to attempt to throw in my 2 cents worth...

Just because you are technical with card, coins, ropes, etc etc...does NOT automatically mean you are a "performer". Some people are born with a natural gift to be able to ham it up with anyone, anywhere. Other people try to learn. They take classes, study books and practice, annnnd practice. For some, this works. Then there are other people out there that are just aweful. I really mean no disrespect, but I look at it the same way I look at some of these people who audition for shows like American Idol or AGT.
SOMEONE had to tell them that they were "amazing" at some point in their life.

There are PLENTY of magicians out there who are soooo much more skilled with a pack of cards than I am. But you know what? I focus more on my performance than I do sleights. Yes I do practice sleights...daily, but I focus more on the entertainment value, building rapport and having the audience know me.

A bit of a ramble here, but it ties in to just out right copying someone. I question just how well tenured your friend really is for making a comment like that. Yes, it is hard to be original, especially in magic. But then you wonder why so many performers are just so awful. I would venture to guess that a portion of their awfulness has to do with the fact that they are using patter/one liners belonging to another performer.

If you want to write comedy, read up on it. Take classes and see if it is something that can come to you after some training...if not, you could consider hiring a writer for you. That is, if you are extremely serious about what you do. Bob Hope did it. So did Jerry Seinfeld.

I probably just garbled a ton of things together and did not really make any sense...but it really frustrates me to read that someone is telling you that. Anyone who really knows me knows just how serious and passionate I get about stuff like this...

 

[Randy]

This bugs me. A ton.

This is what is wrong with the entertainment industry. Not just magic, but performance art altogether. But, since this is a magic forum, and we are discussing magic, allow me to attempt to throw in my 2 cents worth...

Just because you are technical with card, coins, ropes, etc etc...does NOT automatically mean you are a "performer". Some people are born with a natural gift to be able to ham it up with anyone, anywhere. Other people try to learn. They take classes, study books and practice, annnnd practice. For some, this works. Then there are other people out there that are just aweful. I really mean no disrespect, but I look at it the same way I look at some of these people who audition for shows like American Idol or AGT.
SOMEONE had to tell them that they were "amazing" at some point in their life.

There are PLENTY of magicians out there who are soooo much more skilled with a pack of cards than I am. But you know what? I focus more on my performance than I do sleights. Yes I do practice sleights...daily, but I focus more on the entertainment value, building rapport and having the audience know me.

A bit of a ramble here, but it ties in to just out right copying someone. I question just how well tenured your friend really is for making a comment like that. Yes, it is hard to be original, especially in magic. But then you wonder why so many performers are just so awful. I would venture to guess that a portion of their awfulness has to do with the fact that they are using patter/one liners belonging to another performer.

If you want to write comedy, read up on it. Take classes and see if it is something that can come to you after some training...if not, you could consider hiring a writer for you. That is, if you are extremely serious about what you do. Bob Hope did it. So did Jerry Seinfeld.

I probably just garbled a ton of things together and did not really make any sense...but it really frustrates me to read that someone is telling you that. Anyone who really knows me knows just how serious and passionate I get about stuff like this...

It most likely boils down to the guy probably not wanting to go that extra mile. A lot of BIG names in magic will often tell you to study more than just magic. I know I've heard John Carney suggest taking acting classes and so as Michael Ammar and possibly a few other major players as well. I'm pretty sure even the likes of Dai Vernon suggested it at some point, specially sense he was known for saying "Act natural", he wouldn't know what that phrase meant if he hadn't studied acting.

 

[Mike.Hankins]

This bugs me. A ton.

This is what is wrong with the entertainment industry. Not just magic, but performance art altogether. But, since this is a magic forum, and we are discussing magic, allow me to attempt to throw in my 2 cents worth...

Just because you are technical with card, coins, ropes, etc etc...does NOT automatically mean you are a "performer". Some people are born with a natural gift to be able to ham it up with anyone, anywhere. Other people try to learn. They take classes, study books and practice, annnnd practice. For some, this works. Then there are other people out there that are just aweful. I really mean no disrespect, but I look at it the same way I look at some of these people who audition for shows like American Idol or AGT.
SOMEONE had to tell them that they were "amazing" at some point in their life.

There are PLENTY of magicians out there who are soooo much more skilled with a pack of cards than I am. But you know what? I focus more on my performance than I do sleights. Yes I do practice sleights...daily, but I focus more on the entertainment value, building rapport and having the audience know me.

A bit of a ramble here, but it ties in to just out right copying someone. I question just how well tenured your friend really is for making a comment like that. Yes, it is hard to be original, especially in magic. But then you wonder why so many performers are just so awful. I would venture to guess that a portion of their awfulness has to do with the fact that they are using patter/one liners belonging to another performer.

If you want to write comedy, read up on it. Take classes and see if it is something that can come to you after some training...if not, you could consider hiring a writer for you. That is, if you are extremely serious about what you do. Bob Hope did it. So did Jerry Seinfeld.

I probably just garbled a ton of things together and did not really make any sense...but it really frustrates me to read that someone is telling you that. Anyone who really knows me knows just how serious and passionate I get about stuff like this...

Look...
I didn't mean to come off so "to the point". When I was in high school, I was given the nickname of "Ace". Not for what you think. Had nothing to do with magic. I was probably one of the biggest Jim Carrey fans you could have met back then. It was borderline creepy...lol. But I loved being called Ace. I was able to do a dead on impression of Jim as Ace, and would do it at the drop of a hat. But there came a point about my junior year, that I wanted to be known for who I was, not for who I wasn't. I was NOT Jim Carrey. I was NOT Ace Ventura. So I stopped it altogether and let everybody see that I had my own characters and that I was funny without emulating someone else.

I think it is important to emulate when first learning. But to flat out copy is no good. This goes back to earlier in the thread when I mentioned books vs DVDs. It is always good to see how other perform the effect they have created, but it needs to be tailored to fit your personal character that you created. But again, when starting out, you don't have a character. You are in the early stages and therefore NEED to learn the way it should be performed so you can understand WHY. That is fine...

But it is a giant NO NO to the peeps out there who blatantly copy one-liners and patter word for word when it doesn't make sense for their character to be acting/talking that way.

Goatears, if you want to chat via PM, feel free...id love to help any way that I can!!!!

 

[William Draven]

I think I'm late to the table on this one but I read something that Pop Hayden published sometime ago that really stayed with me even to today. Magic is a little like music. When you first start learning to play an instrument you don't begin with your own stuff. You start with chords and scales, and then progress to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and from there onto other songs that reinforce the basic mechanics you've been instructed to do. It's not really late into the game of comprehension where you begin to branch off from what others have done before you and you begin to feel yourself out as a musician and begin to play your own songs. Magic isn't any different. We wouldn't know what to do if we didn't follow the instructions to the letter while we are learning, and that's fine to emulate those who inspire you at the start. All this talk about character, and presentation crap is the high school classes that you don't need to worry about yet until you can graduate from grammar school. Character will come in time. Like playing your own music, it's just a matter of knowing the material well enough that you can let go and let what is inside of you naturally come out but you can't do that unless you've got the basics down first.

It's so critical that the student of magic get out of his or her bedroom and perform for as many people, and as many different types of people as you can. It's only through doing that you'll learn what works, what doesn't, what gets a reaction, and what kind of presentation styles you like doing vs what presentation styles get you the best reactions. They aren't always the same! But the important thing is you're out there doing it. Pay, Character, Presentation it'll all come in time. You can worry about that stuff later. When you're starting out though if emulating David Blaine is what it takes to get you out of your shell and doing stuff for an audience then do it!

The emulation is just a crutch that we use until we're strong enough to carry ourselves. It's like when we were potty training my niece. At first she needed training pants because of all the little accidents she'd have, but as time went on and she mastered the potty thing she didn't need them as much, and little by little she progressed until she finally didn't need them at all anymore. At first we start out emulating because we don't know any better. We don't know who we are, or what we're able to do. But as we develop and grow we realize that there IS a voice inside and sooner or later we don't need that crutch anymore. It's more fun to be ourselves, and we begin to prosper in our own originality. There's no set amount of time between transitional phases that each must go through. It happens when it does. The important thing to do is keep trying to progress yourself forward. Don't get too comfortable with where you are. Always seek to better yourself.

 

[SJBrundage]

I think I'm late to the table on this one but I read something that Pop Hayden published sometime ago that really stayed with me even to today. Magic is a little like music. When you first start learning to play an instrument you don't begin with your own stuff. You start with chords and scales, and then progress to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, and from there onto other songs that reinforce the basic mechanics you've been instructed to do. It's not really late into the game of comprehension where you begin to branch off from what others have done before you and you begin to feel yourself out as a musician and begin to play your own songs. Magic isn't any different. We wouldn't know what to do if we didn't follow the instructions to the letter while we are learning, and that's fine to emulate those who inspire you at the start. All this talk about character, and presentation crap is the high school classes that you don't need to worry about yet until you can graduate from grammar school. Character will come in time. Like playing your own music, it's just a matter of knowing the material well enough that you can let go and let what is inside of you naturally come out but you can't do that unless you've got the basics down first.

It's so critical that the student of magic get out of his or her bedroom and perform for as many people, and as many different types of people as you can. It's only through doing that you'll learn what works, what doesn't, what gets a reaction, and what kind of presentation styles you like doing vs what presentation styles get you the best reactions. They aren't always the same! But the important thing is you're out there doing it. Pay, Character, Presentation it'll all come in time. You can worry about that stuff later. When you're starting out though if emulating David Blaine is what it takes to get you out of your shell and doing stuff for an audience then do it!

The emulation is just a crutch that we use until we're strong enough to carry ourselves. It's like when we were potty training my niece. At first she needed training pants because of all the little accidents she'd have, but as time went on and she mastered the potty thing she didn't need them as much, and little by little she progressed until she finally didn't need them at all anymore. At first we start out emulating because we don't know any better. We don't know who we are, or what we're able to do. But as we develop and grow we realize that there IS a voice inside and sooner or later we don't need that crutch anymore. It's more fun to be ourselves, and we begin to prosper in our own originality. There's no set amount of time between transitional phases that each must go through. It happens when it does. The important thing to do is keep trying to progress yourself forward. Don't get too comfortable with where you are. Always seek to better yourself.

Good Post Draven! Your analogy between a musician and magician are Great! It really put a great perspective on starting out in magic!

 

[Josh Burch]

I question just how well tenured your friend really is for making a comment like that.

He's the president of the local magic club. He's a nice guy and very enthusiastic about the art but I have yet to see him perform at all. He's one of those old guys at the meetings that doesn't do much because he wants "to let the young guys have a chance to spread their wings". I'm sure you know the type, there's usually a handful of them at any magic meeting I attend. The guys that probably have something worthwhile to say but just never do.

 

[Tyler Wilson]

Hey goatears,
Great observation. I made the same cover band point in a podcast over at iTricks a couple of weeks ago. Here's the link if you want to check it out:

iTricks Podcast

In music, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a cover band. There's a huge market out there for them. And it's no different for their magical counterparts. But the key is, we need to understand what we are. No cover band releases an album of material as though it's original because they know that they're a cover band. But magicians don't seem to have that same realization. It's fine to be a cover magician if you know you're a cover magician. And there's absolutely no shame in that. But I fear that a lot of magicians are just fooling themselves. And that's unfortunate. We all need to embrace what we are.

Tyler Wilson