Old Timer Magicians

[CoryOOreo]

Care to support that claim with historical evidence, Corey?

Sure Brad.

"Houdini prided himself on his skill as a card manipulator but his most applauded feat was an illusion he called Metamorphosis. John Nevil Maskelyne had introduced the basic principle in England, and Herrmann the Great's assistants had performed a similar transposition in the United States."

The Illustrated History of Magic
Page 342
Paragraph Three

"He spent his free hours pursuing a new hobby - handcuffs. He discovered they could be opened with a concealed key or a pick - a small piece of metal or bent wire."

The Illustrated History of Magic
Page 342/343
Paragraph Seven

"The medicine show tour ended, and Houdini still found it difficult to book his magic and escape act. He and Bess traveled as professional mediums before they were signed to play another season with the Welsh Brother's Circus. At 24, Houdini was still on the lowest rung of the show business ladder. One more year, Houdini promised his wife, then if he didn't make a hit, he would give up magic and work at some more profitable trade.

The Illustrated History of Magic
Page 345
Paragraph Seven

"He escaped from a straitjacket whil dangling head first two hundred feet above the amazed onlookers in Picadilly Circus... etc. He claimed to be the world's greatest escapologist. His name... was Murray.
Today, except for a few magic history scholars, no one remembers Murray. Even fewer people remember Hourdene, Whodini, Cutini, and Stillini - all performers who imitated and traded off the name of the most famous magician who ever lived...."

David Blaine - Mysterious Stranger
Page 130
Paragraph One and Two

 

[2ndDeal]

"Houdini prided himself on his skill as a card manipulator"
-Illustrated History of Magic

Taking other sources to account, this suggests that Houdini considered himself a good card manipulator.

I've heard that Dai Vernon's bibliography says that when Houdini's friends had seen Dai Vernon doing tricks using palming, they suggested that Houdini would take a lesson of palming from Vernon. Houdini believed he had a perfoect Classec Palm, and refused. However, Houdini's palm was horrible.

I respect Houdini as a escape artist, and a master performer, but not as a card magician or card manipulator.

 

[Brad Henderson]

First, Christopher's work is hardly authoritative on any subject, let alone Houdini. But let's look at your claims.

Sure Brad.

"Houdini prided himself on his skill as a card manipulator but his most applauded feat was an illusion he called Metamorphosis. John Nevil Maskelyne had introduced the basic principle in England, and Herrmann the Great's assistants had performed a similar transposition in the United States."

The Illustrated History of Magic
Page 342
Paragraph Three

Houdini prided himself on a lot of things. But pride does not equal skill or success. He was a noted ego maniac with an incredibly inflated sense of self. Check Guy Jarrett's comments (one of his contemporaries) to that fact. All this quote establishes is that of all of his tricks, the metamorphisis was the best, and even that was hardly original.

"He spent his free hours pursuing a new hobby - handcuffs. He discovered they could be opened with a concealed key or a pick - a small piece of metal or bent wire."

The Illustrated History of Magic
Page 342/343
Paragraph Seven

This establishes nothing as to his skills or success as a magician.

"The medicine show tour ended, and Houdini still found it difficult to book his magic and escape act. He and Bess traveled as professional mediums before they were signed to play another season with the Welsh Brother's Circus. At 24, Houdini was still on the lowest rung of the show business ladder. One more year, Houdini promised his wife, then if he didn't make a hit, he would give up magic and work at some more profitable trade.

The Illustrated History of Magic
Page 345
Paragraph Seven

This would go to counter your claim that he was a skilled or successful magician.

"He escaped from a straitjacket whil dangling head first two hundred feet above the amazed onlookers in Picadilly Circus... etc. He claimed to be the world's greatest escapologist. His name... was Murray.
Today, except for a few magic history scholars, no one remembers Murray. Even fewer people remember Hourdene, Whodini, Cutini, and Stillini - all performers who imitated and traded off the name of the most famous magician who ever lived...."

David Blaine - Mysterious Stranger
Page 130
Paragraph One and Two

This, again, seems to counter your claim. Clearly he is remembered as an escape artist, not a magician. It says nothing as to why - whether it was the quality of his work or his PR. Also, David Blaine is not an historian.

If you are interested in facts about Houdini, you might want to check out the Ken Silverman book. Also, there are many contemporary accounts of Houdini and his magic from theater critics as well as his peers.

You claim that he was an incredible magician yet none of the quotes above do anything to suggest that is true.

You might want to rethink that position.

Brad Henderson

 

[KatieKenner]

Guys,

I hope this is just a friendly debate. I'd hate to have to lecture you all on off topic posts and personal attacks.

Just a little concern.

Stay awesome.

KE

 

[Ben Long]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeMm9pSr_RU

Check out this little link of Vernon himself saying "Houdini didn't do magic, he did escapes." (00:27).

I'd say that's a primary source as Vernon was alive during that time period. But what the hell do I know, eh?

But don't get me wrong, I've got noting against the man. I think what he did actually do was brilliant. Escape as an art.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Just an issue of historical accuracy. The Houdini myth is an interesting one, especially given Houdini's own efforts at creating it. There are many stories surrounding the man that have no basis in fact. I think that, today, we benefit from isolating the truth from the fiction. Clearly many people, not just Corey, have misinformation about Houdini. What a wonderful opportunity to explore the proper history of the man and his contributions.

Brad

 

[CoryOOreo]

Thanks Katie. I will admit that I've felt a little threatened by Brad. He always seems to have something to say about what I have to say. But that's fine, he is completly entitled to his opinion - even if it seems as if it is meant to make me feel smaller. I will not be posting in this topic anymore, as I'm afraid I might say something I regret. My information about Houdini was obviously slightly incorrect, it's not a big deal. Hopefully we can just move on with some of the things I've said in the past, and continue to discuss magic respectfully. Sound good?

 

[SHANE BLACK]

OK I am just floored right now with the level of disrespect I am reading right now. I expect more from our community here at T11. I am 31 thats right 31 and I guess compared to the alot of you guys I am included in that "old guy" stereotype. I have been performing for 7 years now and I have been in magic for 18 years and I feel I have tried my best to help all of you younger guys here since I've been here. I am a little off topic I know but I only responded due to the need of a calling the level of ignorance out here thats being given here. Lets try and re-evaluate the message some of us are sending.

Thanks

Shane

 

[Ben Long]

Thanks Katie. I will admit that I've felt a little threatened by Brad. He always seems to have something to say about what I have to say. But that's fine, he is completly entitled to his opinion - even if it's always meant to make me feel smaller. BTW, there is no E in my name.

Woah, now. I don't think that's the intention at all. Yes, perhaps the conversation got a bit heated, but I don't think that was his intention at all. I didn't seem like it to me, at least.

It's a matter of historical accuracy, and nothing more...

Be cool...

 

[CoryOOreo]

Woah, now. I don't think that's the intention at all. Yes, perhaps the conversation got a bit heated, but I don't think that was his intention at all. I didn't seem like it to me, at least.

It's a matter of historical accuracy, and nothing more...

Be cool...

Yo, I edited my post while you were posting this.

 

[Brad Henderson]

Corey,

If you have felt threatened, I apologize. Ideas and people are very different things. You can completely disagree with an idea irrespective of the person who uttered it. You made a very inflammatory statement which was flawed in many respects. I think the passionate replies you received from many were reasonable given the statement made. Because of your statement, we have been able to explore at least a small handful of issues, and many have been exposed via links to exceptional performers of the past. All in all, I think the overall direction has been forward moving and positive.

Magic is very important to me. It is important to all of us here. When a statement which inaccurately reflects that which is historically known is made, then that needs to be corrected.

People and ideas are different. But we cannot say just anything as if it were fact. I apologize again if my curiosity about your sources made you feel threatened. Had you uncovered something obscure, I would have been thrilled to have learned from that. We have to be held accountable for our words. I did not feel what you had said was correct - historically. Don't take it personally. I do not know you, nor do I need to. This is a discussion about ideas, not about people.

Brad

 

[Ben Long]

Yo, I edited my post while you were posting this.

Oh, my bad...

Sorry about that...

 

[CoryOOreo]

Thanks Brad. I don't want to come off as self-absorbed.

 

[joshrobarts]

I'm almost reluctant to interject into this convo but just a point to be made is that you are all quoting these history books written by different people who all have different opinions just as we all do. No historian is ever completely unbiased and as such we will always have different views, Even the quote from Dai Vernon himself is biased. He said that Houdini didn't do magic he did escapes but that was only his opinion on what qualifies as magic, and as to Houdini's PR, correct me if im wrong but Dai Vernon spent most of his career trading in on the PR he got from the title "the man that fooled Houdini", im just saying without first hand knowledge of Houdini's skill, (something i sincerely doubt any of us have) everything is really just speculation and heresay and opinion's of one man or another, so just enjoy your opinio, its part of who you are or how you feel about magic or even what inspired you to get into it, but remember everyone has a different one and no one is the same, even historians' haha,

 

[Ben Long]

I'm almost reluctant to interject into this convo but just a point to be made is that you are all quoting these history books written by different people who all have different opinions just as we all do. No historian is ever completely unbiased and as such we will always have different views, Even the quote from Dai Vernon himself is biased. He said that Houdini didn't do magic he did escapes but that was only his opinion on what qualifies as magic, and as to Houdini's PR, correct me if im wrong but Dai Vernon spent most of his career trading in on the PR he got from the title "the man that fooled Houdini", im just saying without first hand knowledge of Houdini's skill, (something i sincerely doubt any of us have) everything is really just speculation and heresay and opinion's of one man or another, so just enjoy your opinio, its part of who you are or how you feel about magic or even what inspired you to get into it, but remember everyone has a different one and no one is the same, even historians' haha,

I guess that just goes to show that history is subjective...

 

[Brad Henderson]

History does have the problem of being influenced by its writer, however that does not allow us to discount facts and conclusions on a simple philosophical whim. The fact remains that there are real facts in this world. We can say that the subjectivity of a reporter could influence his reporting of, say, the day Houdini died, but that is to engage in sophistry.

Good history consists of looking at as many facts, reports, pieces of data available to us and creating a report that is inclusive of all.If not, those exclusions should be explained away if the historian is to be taken seriously.

There are many, MANY reports of Houdini's skills and successes as a magician. We have his own letters here at the HRC in Austin. We have letters written to him by peers. We have accounts from newspapers, reviews from critics - both lay and magical, and we have corroborating writings from others of his day. (On a personal note: I met a man who saw Houdini's show on several occasions. Ranked him at the bottom of the names of his day, though he did like the "crime prevention" lecture he gave as part of his show.)

For a while, it was chic in the university world to try and dismiss all history as subjective. That approach has been abandoned everywhere but the most liberal of liberal arts schools.

While a report can never convey with 100% accuracy the reality of the day, honest historians can help us get pretty close. Look at the notes to the Silverman book and you see that every fact stems from some piece of evidence that we have that traces back to his day.

Was Houdini a great magician? Well, when we read the accounts of his peers and look at his bank books, it is a hard case to make.

Brad Henderson

 

[Nate Malini]

I've heard that Houdini wasn't that good magician. He stole stuff and published it with his own name.

I don't know myself, but that's what I've heard.

I heard that Erdnase stole Houdini's colour change and put it in print under "Erdnase change" Expert at the card table. no credit to Houdini.

 

[2ndDeal]

I heard that Erdnase stole Houdini's colour change and put it in print under "Erdnase change" Expert at the card table. no credit to Houdini.

Yeah, Houdini published "Erdnase Change" first, so it should be called Houdini Change. However, it is unclear who invented it. In those days things weren't published as fast as these days, so it is perfectly possible that Houdini learned the change from mysterious Erdnase, or that both learned it from someone else.

It wasn't published by Erdnase as Erdnase Change, but as a one way to "transform" a card. Erdnase wasn't good at giving names to sleights.

But it should be called Houdini Change, I agree.