Simple Hits Hard, but Complex Hits Deep

Sep 1, 2007
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So I'm reading (yes, reading) through AoA vol. 3 last night, looking at a some ridiculous packet tricks. These tricks are not easy or simple. They are complex, difficult to learn and, need to be performed in a very precise manner to look magical.

This gets me thinking (yes, reading and thinking, all in one night). I think about some card tricks like, say, Witness, or Indecent. What do these tricks have in common?

Plastic bags.

They're also simple. They don't require gratuitous double lifts, palms, shifts, awkward displays, etc. It's basically card in bag. Bam. Magic.

They let me build up the moment. I don't have to worry about weaving aces into kings like in Interlaced Vanish.

And yet, they lack something, physically, I feel. Subtlety. Take PH's Illusion. You hold the three-card packet and you use simple little convincers to prove that there are three cards. The auditory count, etc. Or the simple billde counts in Las Vegas leaper, or in the biddle trick.

With these big simple tricks, because of the simplicity or lack of handling, You might not get a chance to "prove" to your audience. I'm not going to go into specifics, but those who own witness can't really prove a certain part of that trick. The audience must believe what it sees.

Sinful is a great trick because it has these little touches that prove that the coun is in the can. And I wouldn't call the handling easy. It's natural, but it takes practice to get it that way.

I think that these more complicated tricks are more solid because you, the magician, are in constant control of your materials at all times. You prove how many cards are in a packet, where a selection is, where the coin is.

What I'm basically saying (if you're still actually reading this) is that simple tricks are great ways to show something powerful quickly, but complex tricks really get into the spectator easier, I think. The magician has a chance to be more elegant, to make what he physically does look more magical.

I'd love to get other people's thoughts on this. Do you go the way of Witness or Tap Dancing Aces and why?
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Wait, I changed my mind.

As long as you create the moment, it's magic. Do what you have to. Just don't use stooges and camera tricks.
 

AllanLuu

Banned
Aug 31, 2007
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I don't mind performing something that is simple yet hard hitting or complex and amazing, just as long as the effect is worth the time I put into it.


If there is a complex trick it must be worth wild and if it is simple it must be straight and direct.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Florida.
Doesn't Matter.

If I like they effect enough to perform it, I don't care how hard it is, I will practice it like every other effect.

What I'm basically saying (if you're still actually reading this) is that simple tricks are great ways to show something powerful quickly, but complex tricks really get into the spectator easier, I think. The magician has a chance to be more elegant, to make what he physically does look more magical.

I don't agree with this at all. I get more reactions from Doc Daley's Last Trick than I do for alot of my other "complex" effects.

If you present something as a miracle, and they believe it, its a miracle.
 
Aug 31, 2007
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California
Wait, I changed my mind.

As long as you create the moment, it's magic. Do what you have to. Just don't use stooges and camera tricks.


If using stooges and camera tricks creates a moment of magic for someone than why not?

It's just another method, if you don't use stooges, you may just be limiting yourself. Nothig is wrong with it... I really don't care how I do something, as long as the moment is created for the audience.

I don't know about you..

Keenan
 
Nov 29, 2007
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Fairfax, VA
If using stooges and camera tricks creates a moment of magic for someone than why not?

It's just another method, if you don't use stooges, you may just be limiting yourself. Nothig is wrong with it... I really don't care how I do something, as long as the moment is created for the audience.

I don't know about you..

Keenan

Aww beat me to it. But I'll give a second opinion anyways :p
I believe using stooges and (to an extent) camera tricks is fine when performing magic. They are just anoher tool for you to use. Your ultimate goal is to make magic, at whatever cost. If the use of stooges is required to accomplish a certain effect, go for it.

Stooges are like trick decks. If you consider usage of stooges to be cheating, then how do you justify the use of trick decks and gimmicks?
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Aww beat me to it. But I'll give a second opinion anyways :p
I believe using stooges and (to an extent) camera tricks is fine when performing magic. They are just anoher tool for you to use. Your ultimate goal is to make magic, at whatever cost. If the use of stooges is required to accomplish a certain effect, go for it.

Stooges are like trick decks. If you consider usage of stooges to be cheating, then how do you justify the use of trick decks and gimmicks?

I like to think of magic as me and my spectators and my simple props (cards, coins) and nothing else. I feel more legitimate and therefore I think the magic seems more legitimate.
 
Aug 31, 2007
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California
I like to think of magic as me and my spectators and my simple props (cards, coins) and nothing else. I feel more legitimate and therefore I think the magic seems more legitimate.

YOU could feel as legitimate as much as your little heart could desire. BUT if your audience isn't feeling the magic, than you need to forget if you feel legit. If a stooge makes the magic for the spectator that much stronger, than forget about your ego and use them.

Sorry if it sounds harsh. But, I've decided to be harsh now adays.

:)

Keenan
 
Remember.. laymen have no idea about sleights and all those tiny little detail. If you can achieve the same effect but with less strain on yourself.. why not?

p/s: I use stooges sometimes.. hey it works!
 
Ive been performing Witness for a while now, and I have never been called on the plastic bag. Why? Well I think its because, like Lee says, when you pull out the bag and show another card, it's just another card in play, no one has no idea what your about to do, so they have absolutley no reason to ask for the plastic bag.

Cheers, Tom

Ps. I can still get amazing reactions with a simple DL. (What about the ACR?)
 
Aug 31, 2007
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I look at it this way:

I can go out and perform Do as I Do, one of the first tricks I ever learned. I'll get a great reaction, because in the spectator's mind, there's no way that what just happened was the slightest bit possible.

Then, I can perform some incredibly diffucult packet trick, which requires me to perfect numerous sleights which take years to learn. But do the spectators know this? No. If a trick is easy, and hits hard, I say go for it. There's no need to learn complicated false counts and center deals, when your self-working tricks do just as much effect-wise.

John :cool:
 
Nov 2, 2007
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Norway
something simple like weighted aces looks like magic.

something like scarnes aces is not magic its "HEY IM ÜBER SKILLED CARD CHEATER"
 
Sep 2, 2007
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comparison: simple effect: HOLY ****

Complex: (I.,E.: Unshuffled): Oh...my...god....what the- but- how?
 
In the end, it's what the spectator sees. You can use the most complex moves and create the same effect using a double lift... but in the end, the spectator will see the same thing. So you have to ask yourself, which method are you most comfortable using?

As for the stooge debate, people say magic is just about using props. Why can't a stooge be a prop? Like Keenan said, as long as the spectators are amazed and have been entertained, stooges are o.k.

The end justifies the means.

Mitchell
 
Dec 2, 2007
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I feel that stooges, like gimicks, should be used sparingly. Anyone can plant a friend in a crowd and work 'miracles', just like anyone can use The Raven. It doesn't take much skill and it looks great, but are you really getting anything out of it? Half of the fun in magic is learning and perfecting the skills and slights you need, where's the fun in buying magnetic coins?

Long story short, you can use stooges and still be a magician, but don't over do it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
108
0
I feel that stooges, like gimicks, should be used sparingly. Anyone can plant a friend in a crowd and work 'miracles', just like anyone can use The Raven. It doesn't take much skill and it looks great, but are you really getting anything out of it? Half of the fun in magic is learning and perfecting the skills and slights you need, where's the fun in buying magnetic coins?

Long story short, you can use stooges and still be a magician, but don't over do it.
That hit the nail on the head. Nothing in magic should be done excessively. I've said this before. Gimmicks are like salt - they're good for you when used in the proper amount, but can ruin you if used too much.

John :cool:
 
Aug 31, 2007
308
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California
That hit the nail on the head. Nothing in magic should be done excessively. I've said this before. Gimmicks are like salt - they're good for you when used in the proper amount, but can ruin you if used too much.

John :cool:


How?

The audience doesn't know the difference... so what's the matter if everything you do is used by gimmicks? It doesn't make you less of a magician if you are still creating a moment for your audience.

What if you found out that everything your favorite magician uses was a gimmick? Would you think less of him?

Think. The audience doesn't see the gimmick. They see the magic. If the gimmick allows you to flip a coin over without touching it, and that creates something for them. I'm going to use it...over and over.

Keenan
 
Sep 1, 2007
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YOU could feel as legitimate as much as your little heart could desire. BUT if your audience isn't feeling the magic, than you need to forget if you feel legit. If a stooge makes the magic for the spectator that much stronger, than forget about your ego and use them.

Sorry if it sounds harsh. But, I've decided to be harsh now adays.

:)

Keenan

I've certainly noticed...
 
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