Sleeving and other coin stuff

[notsoltd]

I got silver dream for christmas and just started watching it. i cant sleeve and i couldnt if my life depended on it and i had hoola hoops for sleeves. i couldnt do it. i need some help. what is some advice on the kind of sleeves you should have for this.

also, i just heard about coinone. i love coin magic like this. about how much would it cost for the coinone dvd and the gimmick and also what site could i buy it from? i also like very elegant coin magic like shoot ogawas stuff. what are some products of this kind of coin work?

thanks for the help!!

-rob the magician (not literally...thats my name )

 

[Brad Henderson]

Justin and I have had many disagreements, and this may lead to another; however his understanding of sleeving is flawed.

When I saw him lecture he condemned the Dr. E.M. Robert's method (as described in Bobo's) as being inferior. He demonstrated what he thought was the method, and then offered his "improvements". Interestingly, he did not understand Robert's method - nor did he remember his name correctly - and his "improvements" were essentially steps closer to the original Robert's method.

I say this not to condemn Justin, only to reinforce the importance of going to source materials and not relying on other people to filter them for you. It's like playing a magical version of the telephone game - it leads to no good.

(For the record, the method as demonstrated by Justin - improperly - is similar to the method taught by Rocco.)

If you are interested in sleeving, the technique is more important than the sleeve. (Though you do need a loose enough entry).

First, buy Bobo's Modern Coin Magic and study the chapter on sleeving. Then, check out the work by Rocco (If it fit's, Sleeve it) and Carl Cloutier. You can find Bobo online, in paperback, for a few dollars and it will give you more than a lifetime of material.

One of the highlights of "Justin's" lecture was a very clever move where the object is sleeved as you grab your wrist in an effort to prove that sleeving is impossible.

The move is actually several generations old and was the brilliant idea of Roy Benson. To see what Roy did with it will make you smile. It is one of the most clever ideas I have ever seen and goes well beyond what was demonstrated in that lecture. Again - I say this not to malign Justin - just to reinforce that there is value in going to the source material.

Other important works are David Roth's Expert Coin Magic and Kaufman's Coin Magic. There is so much great material in those three books (including Bobo) that you can spend years working and mastering them.

Best,

Brad Henderson

 

[Jesusfrk07t]

One thing i realized when i started to sleeve was that i wasnt bending my wrist down enough in order for the coin to have a direct path to my sleeve.

I learned how to sleeve in a leather jacket, and if you have one, then you know how difficult it was lol.

 

[Aris.SA]

hey guys I think u are kinda exposing SD...

 

[notsoltd]

hey guys I think u are kinda exposing SD...

no because on the silver dream page it says there is a version that uses sleeving and a gaffed version

 

[Aris.SA]

thanks for correcting me =)

 

[notsoltd]

no problem. so does anyone have any answers to my other questions besides the sleeving??

 

[Brad Henderson]

Coin one can be had at: http://homerliwag.com/ $30

The gimmick can go anywhere from $25-$60 depending.

For a Johnson Half: $35

http://www.dennymagic.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?client=10956291&action=detail&item=002803

For a Schoolcraft Silver Half: $60

http://www.coingaffs.com/

For a Keuppers Half: $29

www.hocus-pocus.com

Buy the books I recommended and you will have the foundations to do any coin magic you want!

Brad

 

[notsoltd]

i well i am not a beginner, i have read bobos and i have watched in the begining there were coins so im pretty much looking for some slightly more advanced coin material

 

[Brad Henderson]

Then you should have readily known the cost of the "coin one gimmick" and at least a dozen places to buy it.

You have mastered all the techniques in Bobo's or did you just flip through the pages?

Forgive me if I am skeptical, but if you have mastered Bobo's good for you.

I don't know if I know of ANYONE who can claim that!

Would have thought Bobo's would have taught you everything you needed to know about sleeving - it's all there!

Quick question: when you classic palm, does your thumb pop? Do you know what I'm referring to?

For more advanced work check out Coin Magic by Kaufman.

There is a bunch of angley impractical stuff being offered today. If you want to "play magic" it's fine. If you want to go out an "do magic" - for real people - it's worthless.

Having said that, the Apollo/Shoot Cultural Exchange DVD will have the kind of stuff you might like. More practical than some, but still - hardly real world worker material.

Already read Bobo's - impressive.

Brad Henderson

 

[notsoltd]

Then you should have readily known the cost of the "coin one gimmick" and at least a dozen places to buy it.

You have mastered all the techniques in Bobo's or did you just flip through the pages?

Forgive me if I am skeptical, but if you have mastered Bobo's good for you.

I don't know if I know of ANYONE who can claim that!

Would have thought Bobo's would have taught you everything you needed to know about sleeving - it's all there!

Quick question: when you classic palm, does your thumb pop? Do you know what I'm referring to?

For more advanced work check out Coin Magic by Kaufman.

There is a bunch of angley impractical stuff being offered today. If you want to "play magic" it's fine. If you want to go out an "do magic" - for real people - it's worthless.

Having said that, the Apollo/Shoot Cultural Exchange DVD will have the kind of stuff you might like. More practical than some, but still - hardly real world worker material.

Already read Bobo's - impressive.

Brad Henderson

as for the comment on the coinone gimmick, i do not know what the gimmick is therefor i dont know where to get it or how much it is. now if its a shell then yes, i know many places to get those and infact i already have one.

with the sleeving thing. trust me, i have read that chapter MANY of times and tried all of the different ways in that chapter and i just cant understand it enough to get it. i, escpecially with coin magic, am not good at learning from books especially with not very many pictures in it. when im learning something new, i like to see what im doing and be able to look up and see in the teaching that im doing it exactly right the way it is being taught

no, i have not mastered everything in bobos. now the first 4 chapters, coin concealments, basic technique,coin vanishes and complete coin vanishes, i have down pretty good.

also i totaly agree and your right, i HAVE NOT mastered everything in bobos and i dont know anyone who can say they have either.

as for the question, no i dont know what your refering to, in the description of how to classic palm a coin in bobos it does not say anything about your thumb popping and jay noblezada doesnt say anything about it in his description of the classic palm on in the beginning there were coins.

^^this is an edit of what i wrote above but i think that popping the thumb is when the thumb sticks straight up when your putting the coin into palm. if this is what your talking about, no i dont do that, i do like chris kenner says in the 1-on-1 3fry video where i keep the thumb and index finger together as i palm the coin
listen, i dont know if i made you mad but i surely was not aiming to do that. i really appreciate all the help from you.

 

[Deleted member 2755]

All I will say is keep practicing Silver Dream. Justin performed it at the lecture I saw him at about a week ago. He is sick at it. He makes a coin really look like it just vanishes..... sick. All I can say is keep practicing. Sure you may not be good at it at first (I wasn't....) but keep going. Eventually, you will be able to do this with incredibly small sleeves. (I actually still can't do it... but I didn't practice a lot.) Justin's Silver Dream routine is awesome and I'm sure you'll love it once you get used to it. I can't give my advice except to keep trying. When you can do it a lot on your huge sleeves, try moving your sleeve size down a bit.

-Doug

 

[Brad Henderson]

RK,

I guess it troubles me that someone is clamoring for 'advanced work' when they have access to it right in from of them. (Referring to Bobo's. Jay Noblezada - while well loved, and popular - lacks the experience, understanding, and practical skill sets to even pretend to be a teacher. I know people think he's cool - but to those who really make their living in the field, to those who have really spent years studying the art, he is a joke.)

I think too many people confuse "hard" with advanced. Someone once said of Reed McClintock, "He does magic so hard, not even Reed McCLintock can do it."

I remember when I attended Coinvention. All the heavy hitters were there. In the entire time, I saw three - only THREE - tricks which would have played for a lay audience, both entertainingly and deceptively. (Admittedly, I missed the David Roth show.)

Of those tricks, only one would probably be considered by you to be "advanced" because it had a lot of moves. It was Homer's, and it looked great. The other two were very simple, very direct, and would have garnered more sheer amazement than anything else presented that weekend.

Just because something uses odd hand grips and weird angles, doesn't make it good. Now, I do NOT believe in taking the easy route. I believe - as did Al Baker - that the simplest approach is always best. Simple almost never means easy.

So, when I see you looking for "advanced work" when clearly you haven't been able to master an intermediate technique taught in a book you already own - a technique you admit to wanting to master - then it makes me feel you aren't very serious. It makes me frustrated that there are perfectly wonderful resources sitting on your shelf, but you are so blinded by the "shiny and new" that you are depriving yourself of a real education. And it's not just you. It's so many...many who have no grounding in the basics of magic - or think they do - and go on and on buying tricks which simply do not work in the real world. (Afterall, if the tricks were real workers - the people who invented them would be out using them to make money. You make so much more money performing for real people than you do selling a DVD. Makes you wonder about those people, doesn't it.) They are irrelevant in presentation, and impractical in execution.

And so many are happy for it.

It saddens me.

Brad Henderson

 

[PjPinsonnault]

So, when I see you looking for "advanced work" when clearly you haven't been able to master an intermediate technique taught in a book you already own - a technique you admit to wanting to master - then it makes me feel you aren't very serious. It makes me frustrated that there are perfectly wonderful resources sitting on your shelf, but you are so blinded by the "shiny and new" that you are depriving yourself of a real education. And it's not just you. It's so many...many who have no grounding in the basics of magic - or think they do - and go on and on buying tricks which simply do not work in the real world. (Afterall, if the tricks were real workers - the people who invented them would be out using them to make money. You make so much more money performing for real people than you do selling a DVD. Makes you wonder about those people, doesn't it.) They are irrelevant in presentation, and impractical in execution.

It saddens me.

Amen.

We're a lucky crowd to have you and your honesty here, Brad.

Just a quick note on Justin Miller. I spent some time with him after his lecture and got to see him work with real people. While I can't argue your facts, I must say that the guy can work a crowd, even a tough one. (The bar isn't in the best of areas.) However, like most of the pros I've seen work, the stuff I saw in the bar was, for the most part, kept from the lecture table hours before.

Pj

 

[notsoltd]

RK,

I guess it troubles me that someone is clamoring for 'advanced work' when they have access to it right in from of them. (Referring to Bobo's. Jay Noblezada - while well loved, and popular - lacks the experience, understanding, and practical skill sets to even pretend to be a teacher. I know people think he's cool - but to those who really make their living in the field, to those who have really spent years studying the art, he is a joke.)

I think too many people confuse "hard" with advanced. Someone once said of Reed McClintock, "He does magic so hard, not even Reed McCLintock can do it."

I remember when I attended Coinvention. All the heavy hitters were there. In the entire time, I saw three - only THREE - tricks which would have played for a lay audience, both entertainingly and deceptively. (Admittedly, I missed the David Roth show.)

Of those tricks, only one would probably be considered by you to be "advanced" because it had a lot of moves. It was Homer's, and it looked great. The other two were very simple, very direct, and would have garnered more sheer amazement than anything else presented that weekend.

Just because something uses odd hand grips and weird angles, doesn't make it good. Now, I do NOT believe in taking the easy route. I believe - as did Al Baker - that the simplest approach is always best. Simple almost never means easy.

So, when I see you looking for "advanced work" when clearly you haven't been able to master an intermediate technique taught in a book you already own - a technique you admit to wanting to master - then it makes me feel you aren't very serious. It makes me frustrated that there are perfectly wonderful resources sitting on your shelf, but you are so blinded by the "shiny and new" that you are depriving yourself of a real education. And it's not just you. It's so many...many who have no grounding in the basics of magic - or think they do - and go on and on buying tricks which simply do not work in the real world. (Afterall, if the tricks were real workers - the people who invented them would be out using them to make money. You make so much more money performing for real people than you do selling a DVD. Makes you wonder about those people, doesn't it.) They are irrelevant in presentation, and impractical in execution.

And so many are happy for it.

It saddens me.

Brad Henderson

wow. im sorry i just realized this whole thing was a misunderstanding. there is no way i am an advanced coin magician. im not a beginner but im not quite to the intermediate level. when i said i wanted more advanced stuff, i meant like advancing from the level i am at now. sorry for the trouble

 

[PjPinsonnault]

wow. im sorry i just realized this whole thing was a misunderstanding. there is no way i am an advanced coin magician. im not a beginner but im not quite to the intermediate level. when i said i wanted more advanced stuff, i meant like advancing from the level i am at now. sorry for the trouble

While his response was directed toward you in this thread, I feel like Brad was also responding to a general sense in the community that a year in the art makes you an expert conjuror in his post. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll explain more accurately.

There is this incessant need in magic to classify ourselves. What's wrong with being a beginner? Why do we want to label our level of skill?

To me, there are two distinctions that matter; the Amateur and the Professional. As far as skill is concerned, it's much better to consider yourself a beginner, for you'll never feel your thirst for betterment quenched, if I may wax poetic.

Pj

 

[Brad Henderson]

Yes, PJ, it's the bigger picture that troubles me.

And no worries, RK. I just think there is so much more you can get out of Bobo's (or a good book like Coin Magic or Roth) that will serve you so much better in the real world than the pipedreams being sold today by others.

To me - if you can't do it for real people, in the real world, and get truly deep moments of amazement, it's not worth waisting my time on - as PERFORMANCE material. Like everyone, I like to play with the latest and greatest for my own amusement. And I do some knuckle busting stuff in my shows - but it's carefully chosen with my AUDIENCE'S happiness in mind - not my own.

Give you an example, had a layfriend watch a modern "coin" guy. He was using all the grips, magicians love him. My friend said, "Wow, that must have taken a lot of time to learn to keep that coin out of site."

To me, he failed. The coin did NOT disappear. It was obvious, he was just hiding it. (To me, it looked like he was "voguing" at a rave, but whatever.) No one really believes the coin disappears, they know its a trick. But, when you watch a master at work, it is so convincing - so simple - so pure, that the audience knows it can't have happened, but yet everything in their being tells them it just did.

That's the goal. Magic. Not fancy moves and cramped hands.

Brad Henderson

 

[Snorri]

Interesting.

Brad you echo several thoughts I have heard over the last 5 years.

I can do begining and advanced stuff ....it really doesn't matter what I do though as I work for real people.
I do not and 90% of the time will not do magic for magicians.
I come from a place where if you show me something then I will show you something and then we can exchange magic if we so choose. I do not as my pals at the shop like to call it "prostitute" myself just to perform for anyone.

I enjoy routines that are clear and though I can do advanced material, try my best to simplify the material and focus on the presentation.

The best comment from my past shows was: I couldn't tell what the method for accomplishing the trick was so it must have been magic. You looked like you were having as much fun as your audience was.

I too find that much of the material released today is to be performed for a single audience member and not a group.

Though I enjoyed Justin Miller's Silver Dream ....I do not use any sleeving in my act. I wear short sleeves most of the time. I do have several routines that vanish three coins and use those instead.


To conclude i totally agree that the goal is magic, the goal is as Paul harris states create wonder and astonishment.

Later,
Snorri

 

[SHANE BLACK]

My words are pretty much spent. Brad responded with just about everything I was thinking as I read through this thread. There are a few things I would like to add to this thought. I have been performing Silver Dream for about a year now and I have owned SD for 2 now. I literally practiced this routine for a almost a year before I actually started performing it. I take a routine and I will practice it for as long as it takes till I am completely satisfied with it before I will perform it and that may be part of my competetive nature of wanting to be the best. My point is this, Brad has repeatively emphazied on this thread about magicians today having the resources available and those same people don't use them to the fullest. Their so caught up with the next best thing or just too damn excited to show off their newly found out trick that they are missing the receptive side of things that can make them a great magician. Brad you are a walking encyclopedia bro to this thing we call magic and thats good we can all use that to learn more. He is a resource right here and readily available as well as I or anyone else on here. Sleeving can be a deadly move if correctly executed. It can make the difference between magic and REAL magic. I would definetly recommend practicing sleeving over and over till you get it, and you will don't worry one day it'll just work.

Shane