Spectator guesses who's dead...

Jan 11, 2011
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Hi guys!

I was recently working on a small routine, which usually scares people a bit. I wonder if you could give me some feedback on this?

Also, do you perform anything similar? What is your experience?

[video=youtube;J_9bKjkcmoo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_9bKjkcmoo[/video]
 
Feb 4, 2008
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I find the plot interesting but the presentation left me a bit flat. I always hesitate to say something like that to you because A: Who am I to talk! LOL My presentation isn't much better! and B: It seems as if English is your second language and I shudder to think about how my presentation would be in Spanish.

I think ultimately a plot like that is better served in a theatrical setting. I know Chris Angel loves doing somber magic in a street setting....but I can't stand that! Mostly if you are going to approach someone on the street, intrude on their daily lives to show them some magic or mind reading, I think it is polite to chose an effect that is a bit more uplifting. Something that leaves them not only thinking, "Wow that was amazing!" but also puts a smile on their face. Try guessing the name of their favorite stuffed animal as a kid. Now instead of walking away thinking "Wow I guessed a couple of dead people," they are thinking "Cool I haven't thought about Fluffy in years!"

Mini-rant over. I definitely think that could be an amazing effect if presented well in the right kind of show.
 
Jan 11, 2011
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Thank you Craig!

Thank you for feedback, eostresh I value it very much. I find performing of mentalism on the street a bit of the challenge, because it's always a struggle to create right atmosphere and put people in the right mood. But it's something I also enjoy doing and experiment with a lot of things. Most routines I do usually leave people in a positive mood, I hope. For this one... well it would be rather difficult. But thank you for your opinion, definitely something to think about.
 
How the hell do you get those kind of reactions doing mentalism on the street? I can't for the life of me make it work. If I do a card trick the audience is with me. If I do a strait jacket escape they love me. I pull out a book test and they walk away bored.
 
May 9, 2012
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New York
Mostly if you are going to approach someone on the street, intrude on their daily lives to show them some magic or mind reading, I think it is polite to chose an effect that is a bit more uplifting. Something that leaves them not only thinking, "Wow that was amazing!" but also puts a smile on their face. Try guessing the name of their favorite stuffed animal as a kid. Now instead of walking away thinking "Wow I guessed a couple of dead people," they are thinking "Cool I haven't thought about Fluffy in years!"

really? i think almost the exact opposite. when you do a street performance, i think you should change people's lives. i mean, your a person who's confident enough to stop a stranger to show them something, it better be pretty good. when i perform (especialy when it comes to mentalism) i want people to lay awake at night wondering how i did it. this trick may scare people but it will ultimately make their day better. i think it opens peoples minds and reminds them that there's things in the world that they will never understand.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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Like many in my age group, I find the whole "stopping random people on the street" a.k.a. Ambush or Guerrilla Magic to be very distasteful and insulting, but I have pointed out in some of my material that there are ways of attracting passers-by vs. the assault mode popularized by Blaine & Angel and so many others now mimic.

Mentalism & Hypnotism done on the streets disturbs me for several reasons, the biggest being that it cheapens the art, lowering it to the state of being simple chicanery vs. true miracles. . . I just read something about a guy that does TOD when working a street corner. . . HOW? Doesn't he realize how much power he's missing out on for not doing that effect in a more controlled environment? Does he care?

Properly framed Mentalism gives us a dynamic that goes far outside "getting a reaction" from your patrons. Take this effect for an example, Jakubr is getting a surprisingly strong reaction from what is essentially a Living & Dead type test. Traditionally, we're talking about something that is done in prelude to a Seance or Seance-like routine, which is exactly how I'd use this particular piece (I even have a current script that it would lend itself well to). By placing it in a program where the patrons are already focused on the idea of death and it's various mysteries gives me, as a performer, the upper-hand -- PSYCHOLOGICALLY.

So why does the OP get such a strong reaction? you ask

Look at where he lives & works and consider the culture of the region; it is seriously immersed in religious ideology and belief. I'll not insult things by calling it "superstitious" but rather "perspective" -- a more casual form of that group mind-set I create when I frame a routine at a person's home or when working a floor show. The people are literally "programmed"!

50+ years ago, when Dunninger and other greats of Mentalism were able to do Card Tricks and create audience acceptance and validation, it was due to no small part that the American & European cultures were still highly "faithful"/Religious and yes, "superstitious" (especially in the U.S. -- even in the 1970s charismatic religious icons were teaching that Psychology & Hypnosis were occult sciences and thus, the domain of the devil). The magic community is ignoring this fact, usually due to its own myopic attitudes; our jaded thinking that "it's all a trick". Similarly, there is a deliberate push from out of the skeptic's side of things, to neuter Mentalisms' power of influence by encouraging the newer generation to present it in less "formal" settings and not focusing as strongly on the requisites of validation and believability. As I've pointed out before, a 16 year old claiming to be an NLP expert just ain't gonna fly when it comes to public acceptance/perspective.

Yes, we can exploit a casual moment of happenstance; I've done a lot of work in Coffee Houses and Parks the past 15 years or so, but my style more closely holds to that "Urban Shaman" idea we've spoken of here and at E a few times.

@ William. . . what about carrying a book around sounds "natural" to you?

If you want to get your audience vested in the demonstration you want it to be a challenge. . . a real challenge e.g. you want to use what's on hand and in their control . . . apparently . . . look at your patrons and what the majority of them have on hand most of the time. Being in the L.A. area I bet some of them have a Thomas Guide Map Book, which can be used in a Book Test quite easier under the rouse of being a Remote Viewing type thing, perhaps. Being at one of the major tourist sites they most likely have a map of the theme park or region. . . again, you have a NATURAL tool that's not a personal possession. Because of this, you create a stronger sense of intrigue.

I've always gone out of my way to use items that apparently belong to group members. I might have arranged to have my book or wallet or whatever chosen or brought into the situation, but as far as the group is concerned, I have no prior connection to the item(s) used. . . this disconnection is vital when it comes to establishing a sense of validity around a Mentalism demonstration vs. our doing "a trick" that mimics supposed paranormal phenomena. . . just something to think on, I hope you understand why.
 
Dammit Craig. Just when I think I'm getting to top of the mountain someone has to come along and take me back to the class room again.

Actually I think it has more to do with the short attention spans of the crowds that pack into City Walk. Due to the very short time they give you it's neigh impossible to present something as powerful as mentalism correctly. The more visual stunt style stuff you do the better off you are. Really I think the mental stuff is better suited for and probably should stay in the theater / private setting where it belongs.
 
Jan 11, 2011
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Craig, thank you for your generous input on this subject. Generally I agree with you, whenever there is possibility to control the environment, the potential, especially for the mentalism is much bigger and creating the right atmosphere seems much easier and natural.

The same time, performing mental effects on the streets is something I've been exploring for quiet a while and more and more I'm convinced, that you can give them experience of something really strong and which they could perceive as real.

In my opinion what Blaine, Angel, Dynamo, and table-hoppers, strolling magicians do - it's all just different branches of magic. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, or one is the right way to go and another wrong. It's like you were telling someone that rock is better than jazz. I think it's important to discover 'what is my branch', and then become as good at it as possible. Blaine and Angel are good examples for that inn my opinion.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Thank you Craig!

Thank you for feedback, eostresh I value it very much. I find performing of mentalism on the street a bit of the challenge, because it's always a struggle to create right atmosphere and put people in the right mood. But it's something I also enjoy doing and experiment with a lot of things. Most routines I do usually leave people in a positive mood, I hope. For this one... well it would be rather difficult. But thank you for your opinion, definitely something to think about.

Just FYI...I like a lot of what I see you do! That one just kind of stuck me odd. I do think you do well with your street mentalism and I don't have a personal issue with mentalism in that setting. Just this particular effect.

As for purple moustache. Just flat out disagree with that philosophy. If I was a charlatan I might want to adopt a philosophy like that but I consider magic entertainment. That is not to say that it can't be thought provoking but the ultimate goal should be entertainment. If you want to change the world...get a job that changes it.

As for Craig...Those sound like some useful and practical suggestions.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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Craig, thank you for your generous input on this subject. Generally I agree with you, whenever there is possibility to control the environment, the potential, especially for the mentalism is much bigger and creating the right atmosphere seems much easier and natural.

The same time, performing mental effects on the streets is something I've been exploring for quiet a while and more and more I'm convinced, that you can give them experience of something really strong and which they could perceive as real.

Understand, I'm far more a traditionalist and too, I refuse to look at Mentalism as being "a trick" and for that reason, I refuse to "lessen" it or my personal advantages as a performer, by treating anything I do in such a way.

In my opinion what Blaine, Angel, Dynamo, and table-hoppers, strolling magicians do - it's all just different branches of magic.

Yes and No. . . Mentalism is RELATED art form just as mime, ventriloquism, puppets, and even comedy are RELATED to what we do, but they are in no way one in the same thing. We can certainly couple certain of these things and when you couple a psi type effect with traditional magic you end up with something the public still sees as being A TRICK vs. a genuine miracle; the latter being the goal behind Mentalism. This is something many in today's world don't realize because it's simply no longer being taught . . . on purpose! I explain why this is so in my introductory book on Mentalism (I offer the link here because we needn't fill up this thread with all the nuances).

I think a lot of what those guys did hurt mentalism in that they deliberately blurred the divisions that have stood for over a century, when it comes to Old School practice and mind sets. They aren't the first to do this, that is an honor that belongs to Dunninger, but even he held to certain formalities when it comes to the mixing and melding of the kindred arts.

I wouldn't say one is better than the other, or one is the right way to go and another wrong. It's like you were telling someone that rock is better than jazz. I think it's important to discover 'what is my branch', and then become as good at it as possible. Blaine and Angel are good examples for that inn my opinion.

Mentalism is "better" than other faces of magic, but it is "different" and far more powerful when it comes to the public perception and psyche. Magicians and those still locked into the magician's way of looking at things, fail to understand this difference and how very large and successful religions have been started through the auspices of Mentalism. . . something you can't say about Card Tricks or Cups & Balls, now can you? Mentalism, including the material I've seen you do Jakubr, comes with a great deal of obligation because of how it affects our public. If you're impressed with the reactions you get working the street scene, my friend, you should ponder just how much stronger it can be under proper setting . . . formal show framework.

Whether you're doing a manipulation act, comedy magic, escapes or Mind Reading the goal is (should be) the same -- to gain the optimum advantage for yourself as the showman and to maximize both, the level of enchantment and entertainment quality gained by the audience. This comes through the taking of appropriate steps and effort as well as time, not justifying short cuts or what is more convenient.

Just my two-cents on things
 
Feb 4, 2008
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I think a lot of what those guys did hurt mentalism in that they deliberately blurred the divisions that have stood for over a century, when it comes to Old School practice and mind sets. They aren't the first to do this, that is an honor that belongs to Dunninger, but even he held to certain formalities when it comes to the mixing and melding of the kindred arts.

Obviously I agree with much of what you say Craig but I do think you over state the facts. To the contrary mentalism and magic have a rich history of sharing and stealing from each other for well over a century. Since the Davenport Brothers stole ideas from the mediums of their day and then other magicians began stealing from the Davenports. Billet work owes a lot to card work and some card work owes a lot to billet work. Morritt was combining mind reading and vanishing donkeys all the way up to the WWI. Ted Annemann became a legend because of his mentalism but in his day he was also well known for his card work and he famously performed the "Bullet Catch," traditionally a very magical effect. David Berglass, whose fame lives on as a mentalist, has always considered himself a magician. I would agree that there has definitely been a movement, at least among many Americans, to separate the two that came out of the sixties, seventies, and eighties, but in the history of magic that is a relatively recent phenomenon.

There certainly are some compelling arguments to separate the two but I don't think "historical precedent," is one of them. I can think of many examples of when the two have shared the stage dating all the way back to Robert Houdin presenting one of his magic effects, the Light and Heavy Box, as a mentalism effect and thus quelling a potential Algerian rebellion. Nope. Historically Magic and Mentalism have gone hand in hand. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is perhaps worthy of debate. I personally feel that there are many examples of when they have been mixed to great effect by certain outstanding performers. I can think of many many more in which combining the two have cheapened one or the other art form. So I disagree with the absolutism of your philosophy but I do agree that the vast majority of performers really muck things up when they try.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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I forget who it was that said it, but the gist is this, "A Magician Will Go to See a Mind Reader Work and Ask Himself, "How Could I Use This in My Act". . . Where the Mentalist Isn't Likely to Visit a Magic Show and Think, "How Could I Put Those Topsy Turvey Bottles into My Act"". . . in other words, Magicians steal material constantly. I've had key bits from my shows stolen by many magic acts but not a single mentalist. So let's not take theft of material as an example of mixing magic & mentalism.

Yes, there are ways by which to do it, my booklet explains this. . . and btw. . . the Light & Heavy Box was never a bit of Mentalism though versions of it have been used in Hypnosis type shows.

Yes, there are those who've done Mentalism that did rightfully call themselves "Magicians" in that the material they presented was typically Magic Tricks. . . even Dunninger used a Mummy Cabinet and performed stage levitations. BUT, he likewise segregated the magic from the Mentalism in the same way most before and since, have done. But then again. . . we are talking about big names and as is still the rule (and I've said this many times) Mental Magic is far more commercial than actual Mentalism in that it allows the public an "out". This is something echoed by (in so many words) by Larry Becker, Lee Earle and even Bob Cassidy to some limited degree (Bob tends to lean more on the purest side of things).

One of the most revered experts on Mentalism was Robert Nelson and he didn't mix Magic with Mentalism, nor will you find people like Neal Scryer, Jerome Finley, Richard Webster, John Riggs and a rather long list of others that have been in this biz for decades, blending the two or seeking to justify doing such.

My book goes into a short explanation as to how the various faces of Mentalism evolved and why, which includes the parallels you have explained in the above, eostresh. But there is another point of clarity here. . . a lot of what was first "borrowed" by the magic fraternity during the formative years of Mentalism (latter 19th century) and even to date, were theoretical; assumptions based on how a magician would pull something off so as to mimic what Spiritualists did. For some strange reason (ego) magicians & skeptics both seem to think that being able to replicate something means that the something in question is "fake" and they have a genuine explanation as to how it works. . . while many a medium were caught red handed, that wasn't always the case; from Kellar to Dunninger, many an educated mage have been dumbfounded by psychics. . . I cut the line there because of how things started shifting in the 1960s and by the late 1970s the Randi Cult had formed and in their book NOTHING was genuine unless St. James said so. This is a toxic attitude that has brought a lot of harm to the whole of magic and one of the biggest reasons I shoot my big mouth off when it comes to how people of faith are treated by members of our society. . . including other magicians and mentalists who have belief. I might not buy into someone's particular dogma but I will support their right to have said conviction and to be able to live it free of persecution (so long as they do not infringe upon or bring harm or loss to others).

Many years ago I not only wrote about it, but I performed "Metaphysical Effects" i.e. large scaled illusions with a New Age premise; and yes, it was part of a Mentalism program -- a commercial, theatrically based stage show. Use of these big effects allowed me to do what no other Mental act had never done in the past; I could give visual demonstrations around the Aura and Astral Projection and other PSI Phenomena that had gone ignored for over a century. I've even used the Blizzard effect as well as a Chinese Snow Storm (ala Kevin James) in a PSI themed program, framing them in a way that tied to Metaphysical or Hermetic thinking. . . and yes, the public viewed such bits as "tricks" because I wasn't trying to sell them as being "real" but rather in the context of being a "what if?" as well as simple production value in a big show (I was still a recovering Illusionist -- as in big box show vs. what so many of you misapply to title to these days). My point is, I do know the difference between the two just as I understand the commercial side of things.

We've taken this thread way off topic at this point, but the fact that I've studied and dabbled with this stuff as well as traditional magic since the 1960s, studying with some of the better known experts in each niche of personal study, should sustain the fact that I know and understand things just a wee bit more than a little bit.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Ehh...we may be drifting off point but that is how conversations transpire in the real world. It is only in the awkward confines of "Forum Rules" that people make hay over that. If you are uncomfortable with that you can start a new thread.

To your response, my overall point that you were over stating history of the separations. I had already conceded that since the sixties their has been a growing rift between the two. My point was that prior to that there was less of a distinction. Again...the two staple acts in any Morritt show, whether in his music hall days or working in one of the Maskelyne theaters, was both a mind reading act and his disappearing Donkey. Some of the other examples I gave I think you were merely trying to disqualify on technicalities. I don't want to get into technicality debates because then you get into splitting hairs on definitions which, in turn, can lead to two people who agree on the overall principles but are arguing over insignificant details. When you present a light and heavy box as a "Magical Box" it is a magical effect, When you present it as if you, the magician, have the power to make the box heavier at your will then it is a magical effect. When you present it as if you can, using the power of spirits, or NLP, or deep psychological principles, get into someone's head and drain them of their strength, I think it is safe to be called mentalism. If you define true mentalism as only mind reading then I cede the point but if you do that you also have to kick PK effects, spirit effects, and influence effects out of mentalism as well.

You brought up a lot of great examples of performers who have been careful not to mix the two art forms but the vast majority of your examples were from the 60s. Thus, my point still stands. Magic and Mentalism have a longer history of working in unison than they do as a separate art form.

If you ask me, my guess is that that 60s split came about less as an artistic choice of certain idealistic mentalists who wanted to protect the integrity of their art form and more as a result of various performers jumping off a sinking ship. It isn't fundamentally different than when many card masters, Scarne chiefly among them, began adopting the gambling demo. Magic by the 60s had lost much of its luster. It had devolved to kids entertainment. Sawing a lady in half, an act that in the 20s was so controversial as to be critiqued in the same category as the gory horror plays of the Grand Guignol, was now on Saturday morning TV. Mentalism split from magic not because of artistic purity but because people stopped believing in magic. Mentalism, on the other hand, could still completely baffle people. This is a point I think you have made many times.

Three out of four Americans believe in some sort of Paranormal phenomena. 48% of Americans still believe in ghosts. One third of Americans believe Aliens have visited the earth. 41% of Americans believe in ESP. Juxtapose that with how many Americans believe people like Blaine and Angel actually have magical powers. What's funny is that I couldn't even find the answer(perhaps some more dedicated google digging could come up with a statistic). When I went looking the front page was full of websites telling you how they did their tricks, not how many people believed they had real powers. That right there shows you the stark, cold blooded, reasons why modern day mentalists want to stay as far away from magic as possible. Claiming it is an idealistic or artistic decision to separate the two is just blowing hot air. It is a business decision!
 
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Dec 18, 2007
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I'll give you that the demonstration of some rather crude "thought reading" happened PRIOR TO the formal development of what became "Mentalism" and "Mental Magic", this can be traced (documentation wise) to the court of Elizabeth I and Scotto the mage. But again, mind-sets differed in that time as did culture; to these people, well into the mid-1800s "Magic" was still something that seemed very real and certain forms of it could still cost one their life if caught demonstrating it. With the advent of the Spiritualist movement however the new field of Magic (a.k.a. Mentalism) began to officially distance itself away from mainstream Magic, and from within that split we find the auspices of 3 key divisions, two being closely tied to one another. . .

Mental Magic was a prime off-set in that magicians were inventing methods that replicated demonstrations associated with Spiritualism or Occult type themes. This would later grow into the Dunninger mold of commercial magic which stands at the fore as being the most profitable form of "Mentalism". Tied closely to this is the Skeptic/Expose type performer that was popularized best when Houdini started featuring demonstrations in his shows . . . just as we have people mimicking Derren Brown and others today, so was the case with magicians of Harry's time. Fact is, it was Kellar and I believe Hermann that first dabbled in this sort of demonstration.

Purist Mentalism, such as I and many others preserve, is based directly on the esoteric when it comes to presentation; we sell what we do as being real and have huge disdain for so called "Disclaimers" for a handful of reasons. Those in this school of thought (what I usually call "Old School") are best described as "Psychic Entertainers" in that the majority of us do legit Reading work and a huge amount of our stage work relies on older, more natural phenomena/techniques and far fewer gimmicks or conveniences, such as instant stooging or even having a confidant with which to work.

Old School workers can and have done the big stage shows, Robert Nelson and the famed Eric jan Hannussen are great examples of this this, but both of these gents also did private counseling, which is another key factor when it comes to the old school path, most all of us are accomplished Readers and deeper invested in esoteric thinking. We likewise tend to work best, with smaller, more intimate audiences; not because we can't hold the larger groups or work corporate gigs but because this is where we gain optimum psychological advantage as a performer while lending to our patrons similar advantages as witnesses.

The 20th century divisions within Mentalism and pulling further away from the magic world, particularly that of the late 50's and early 60's was in fact due to how so many magicians were hurting the craft as a whole because they taught it in the same way they would any other trick (sound familiar?). The more formal division happened in the 70's as the Psychic Entertainers Association (PEA) was formed with the intent of keeping the deeper workings behind Mentalism out of the hands of the general magic community. This included things like how to use Psychological Forces (demographic commons), the deeper workings of Cold Reading techniques, and a huge collection of subtleties that have, since the first Blaine special, managed to escape the fraternity and come into general access for the sake of the almighty dollar. . . part of this is due to conflicts within the PEA over the years. BUT, there are other groups that still exist that take such things even deeper underground, literally retaining exclusion to as few as 13 prime members (the "Mystic 13" idea is said to apply to all genre of the magic world, but it's such an elusive element, no one knows for certain).

Business Decision?

Maybe, I don't see it that way for reasons that should be clear at this point -- Mental Magic is the more lucrative, commercially speaking -- than the Old School path. That's not saying that we in the Old School mind-set don't see good cash; I know of at least two NYC area performers that see a minimum of $1,500.00 to do a home show and nearly as much to do a private Reading. Both gents work very full schedules, though one is heading towards retirement (one reason he's been pumping out all those high priced books of late, with his friends).

As both, an entertainer and Mentalist I believe in doing what I must do in order to gain the optimum advantage for the type of material I am presenting, be it Mentalism or Grand Illusion (my two specialties). I believe in pulling things together in such a way as to make my job and task of presentation, easier and able to pull the strongest possible reaction from patrons as possible. This is why I encourage and yes, "preach" the issue of separation. So yes, one could argue that I have a "business" agenda because of this, but my call to this craft is from the heart, not my wallet. . . I'm a terrible businessman, but an awesome director and choreographer of magic, and that's where I work from.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Well I won't deny that you definitely have informed and interesting views on the topic. It is always fun to pick your brain and try to siphon off a little bit of your experience. That said, as I suspected, it appears that the biggest point of dispute is in definitions.
Purist Mentalism, such as I and many others preserve, is based directly on the esoteric when it comes to presentation.
I really wouldn't have a problem with that definition if you had added a category in between Mental Magic, and Purist Mentalism. If you had put say, Mental Magic, Mentalism, and Purist Mentalism as the possible categories then I think we could start moving someplace. But as you didn't I can only assume that much of the problem comes from guys like you trying to claim possession to the term Mentalist. I think the average bloke would consider Dunninger a mentalist. Even though Derren himself doesn't like to label himself, most people in the magical arts would call him a mentalist. There is certainly a far cry in how he presents his "miracles" than there is from Angel and Blaine(Who I believe you also categorize as mental magic.) Confining the term "Mentalist" only to those with esoteric or spiritualistic philosophies arrogantly excludes plenty of good performers who perform the exact same effects using the exact same methods while avoiding the same types of effects as you.

So I guess what I am saying is that for years the type of performer Derren Brown is or Dunnenger is has been called a Mentalist by the magic fraternity and even by the laity. You, and the PEA come along in the sixties and then try to lay claim to the terminology. You then add extra qualifiers that have little to do with content and methodologies and everything to do with a personal ideology. It would be like Martin Luthar coming along and trying to say...."Okay I'm a real Catholic. All you Catholics who chose not to come into my new church now need to change your name."

You guys in the PEA added the extra rules for admittance. You need to come up with a new term. You need to allow for a distinction that allows performers who have been calling themselves mentalists for a long time to continue to call themselves mentalists. And that holds true even for "Mentalists" who do have awful performance chops. The crappiest magician still gets to call himself a magician. It is unlikely that the guy who graduates from Basic Underwater Demolition School and his probational SEAL training at the very bottom of his class is destined to get on to SEAL team six but by god he is still a SEAL! The guys on SEAL Team Six don't have the right to tell that guy that he is not a SEAL. They can tell him he isn't good enough for SEAL team six but they cant deny he is a SEAL. So you may not like some of the methods and presentations of some of the guys out there who are claiming to be Mentalists but, so long as their performance is focused on magic on the mind and not watered down with card tricks, close-up gimmicks, and expensive stage props that make women in skimpy outfits disappear, then they have every right, based on language precedent alone, to call themselves a Mentalist.

Understand I am trying not to be too harsh. Indeed I can understand your protectionism of your art and, on the whole, I agree or will at least defer, to most of your opinions on performance. And to empathize with your plight let me say that, as a magician, I would LOVE to kick kids magicians out of the fraternity. Not that there are not outstanding kids magicians but, as any magician who lives in a more rural area knows(or will soon find out) the success of kids magicians puts a heavy burden on those with little interest in kids magic. Unless you live in an area where adult magic is an accepted form of entertainment you have heavy prejudices you must overcome in order to find work and convince your audience that you don't intend to patronize them. So I would love to make them pick another term for themselves so other magicians wouldn't have to carry the weight of the yoke they drape around our neck but I don't get to do that. The same goes for mentalists. Even if they are horrible at what they do, as long as they stay focused on telepathy, clairvoyance, divination, precognition, psychokinesis, mediumship, mind control, memory feats, rapid mathematics, and sometimes hypnosis they have a right to call themselves a mentalist. If they jump out of any of those at any part in their show then and only then can you "demote" them to mental magic.


Re: Erik Jan Hanussen- I'm not going to belabor this for fear of twisting an interesting debate into a fight. I'll simply state that I would not want to be associated on a philosophical level with this guy. Here is his wiki page. I'll let others make their own judgments on this colorful figure.
 
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Dec 18, 2007
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Jan Hanussen and Messing are two examples of true Mentalism or, what has become known as "Old School" Mentalism; even Stephan Minch points out that the true Mentalists walks a very thin line in which one foot remains on the stage while the other is in the world of the charlatan. Bob Cassidy and a number of others echo a similar perspective but if you just look at the names of contributors on a Niel Scryer book you'll find that our kind are quite abundant.

90% of the stuff that's been pooped out by so-called "developers" in the past 15 or so years is in fact Mental Magic. Much of what Dunninger presented fits this same niche in that he essentially created (up-dated) the older "Mystic" modes of presentation by introducing the more analytical and then "current" views as the premise of presentation. Many in today's world like Dunninger because he did lots of card tricks (as did Annemann, Eddie Joseph and a slew of others). BUT, when you look at Robert Nelson and even William Larsen, Sr you don't find much of this course of thinking.

In around the 1920s the field of Mentalism saw a major rift in the form of Magic Groups such as the IBM and SAM siding with Houdini and his activities. This is where the slant towards Mental Magic first got its footing, either through "Expose" type programs or those that promoted "enactments of supposed Spiritualist prowess" . . . a style very similar to Derren Brown.

By the 50s & 60s this latter side of things had become the dominant aspect of Mentalism because if was far more commercial for a number of reasons, the biggest being the fact that noted Magicians were doing these shows and much of what they did could be digested by the public, as being tricks vs. genuine.

In this same era the Purists went a totally different direction. While fewer of them became as renown as the other, many of them still played the clubs, did theatrical programs and more. Yet, they also did private Readings and a number of other work that the Magic Community feared and loathed for pseudo-moralistic reasons. . . and I word it that way deliberately in that some of the biggest mouthed anti-psychic schmucks out there will use Cold Reading and Billet work, presenting it as real, just to bed down a person of interest. . . this is a low to which no honest psychic or Mentalism purist will ever near. . . that's where our ethics stand.

The Wiki Page was compiled by an individual pushing the current agenda. . . let's face it, he's listed John Edward as a Mentalist which he's never called himself and has deliberately distanced himself from. There are several inaccuracies in his description and as I've said, it is because of the agenda of those that believe themselves "intellectuals" -- people that promote the idea that if you are involved with magic you cannot believe in magick. Similarly, they encourage the delusion that people of intelligence won't believe in the phenomenal. Sorry, but that is a horrid bias that didn't become as saturated as it is until the latter 80s & 90s as the JREF gained momentum alongside Shermer, Nichol, etc. ALL of whom are admitted Atheists and have been recognized by the American Atheist community as their key "evangelists" . . . something that a genuinely intelligent person would have to consider if they are to honestly weigh the things being pushed in regards to the philosophy around Mentalism & Bizarre Magick and its performance.

Larry Becker & Lee Earle both admit that what they do in a show is far closer to being Mental Magic than Mentalism and they aren't the only notables that take this stand. Just as I've pointed out, these two BUSINESS MEN recognize the commercial value of presenting fun bits of chicanery with a light smattering of the "real", such as a Q&A. Even Kreskin clings to this position and I believe his 50ish year career speaks for itself when it comes to commercial success.

UNDERSTAND, I'm not devaluing Mental Magic, it has its place and when used properly, it is a powerful tool. As I've said, even I will exploit such material when I was doing stage shows. . . I've even created a means by which to do the "SNOW" routine of Copperfield fame as a piece of "Metaphysical Magick" as I call it; something I've done several articles on because of how Mentalists can add a significant amount of production value to their stage shows and touch on related topics in the process. The audience knows it's all a trick, but they accept it because of the theme and message so it works.

Even if they are horrible at what they do, as long as they stay focused on telepathy, clairvoyance, divination, precognition, psychokinesis, mediumship, mind control, memory feats, rapid mathematics, and sometimes hypnosis they have a right to call themselves a mentalist. If they jump out of any of those at any part in their show then and only then can you "demote" them to mental magic.

This line reveals the fact that you aren't understanding what I've been saying . . .

A classic routine like Becker's Casino Royale or The Master Prediction Chest are obviously magic tricks. Even Dunninger pointed out that the more "props" one used in a show, the less you were valued as a Mind Reader -- props = magician.

But there is another point to be included here and that's when a solid and establish bit of good Mentalism is misused by a Magician. While the Smash & Stab roulette bits are an excellent example of this alongside classics like the Mental Epic, there are those instances in which a White Faced Clown (children's performer) presents MoAB as part of their act . . . the justification is, "I can buy it so I can use it, screw you!" i.e. people that have no respect for the divisions that have existed in magic for generations. Sadly, the current mind-set and the drive to take out of mentalism both, the believability factor and the more mystical approach of performance, has seriously brought harm to the craft and made it more difficult for those of us that have a genuine passion for it.

UNDERSTAND, there is nothing wrong with a magician presenting a piece of Mental Magic in their show; in fact, it's expected in some cases. BUT, they should not be exploiting top shelf material such as the various "Sinner/Saint" type bits. On the other hand that could do like the yesteryear greats did, and introduce a "special guest" a.k.a. a co-star who has unique gifts. This is what Willard the Wizard did when he brought out his famed Spirit Cabinet and what many others did when they moved into a Telepathy or Clairvoyant styled routine as a feature in their otherwise traditional magic programs. But we're talking about a feature bit within a show that "shares" the demonstration with a special person with special abilities -- the Magician isn't making the claim and while it sounds like nit picking, the psychological impact and empowerment this simple action delivers to the performer and the show, is priceless. . . as I used to say, why try swimming up-stream when you can go with the flow and win?

Bottom Line Is, you didn't understand the differences in description and as the end result, you've created an issue that doesn't exist.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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Sorry Craig....You are the one who missed the point. The point is that the common use of the word is basically someone who reads minds. Having as few props as possible...I'll cede that point. But to the other nitpicky, who is, who isn't details. Nope. A mentalist reads minds. That is becoming the common use of the word. Language develops naturally and it is largely out of peoples control. Indeed if we were to go by the dictionary definition you and I are both wrong. A Mentalist is a term for a psychological school of thought that is in contrast to Behaviorists. Because the behaviorists have basically won that fight within the psychological and psychiatric community its use by entertainers (to describe a mind reader) is slowly becoming more common. It is already been adopted by Wikipedia and I suspect Dictionaries will start to follow suite within a decade. That means that for most magicians and, more importantly, most lay people Derren Brown is the current king of mentalism.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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The term "Mentalism" pre-dates Psychological definitions and was adopted by the 19th century performers because of public interest in Hermetics, which is, as best I can tell, the prime source from where the term was taken. . . this is something I've discussed with others and most agree. . . in fact, the majority of working pros tend to agree with what I've outlined, but I guess you're perspective is superior to that of 30 and 40 year veterans of the craft. . .

You can find out more about basic Hermetic/Metaphysical Law by studying this text. While a modern compilation, it echoes very old teachings.

I've heard this whole excuse of "Language Evolution" for several years now, usually presented by persons well under 35 years of age that want to be smug and act like intellectuals as well as those that argue "Freedom of Expression" of all things. I short, it's a spoiled brats way of insisting that things be their way vs. the manner by which language is used to COMMUNICATE with others; if people change the meaning of something Communication becomes nigh impossible. . . in this instance we're looking at the contrast between generations. In my earlier years (and for most of the past century) an "Illusionist" was a person that presented Grand Theatrical Spectacle via large scaled mysteries. Today we find close-up workers borrowing said term, defending "their right" to use it, because what they do is, technically, an Illusion. . . technically! Then again the more proper technical term for close-up would be slight-of-hand in the majority of cases, even when packet tricks are being depended upon -- genuine prestidigitation. Taken to the parlor slight-of-hand becomes "Manipulation" or, as it was known prior to the 19th century "Juggling".

Want to pick more nits?

My explanation is sustained by no fewer than a dozen major players in the Mentalism industry (that I've corresponded with or speak to regularly. . . not all of them are "old school", one in particular is a noted person of rank with the JREF).

Derren Brown is such a "King" of Mentalism that his attempt to break into the American market fell flat on its ass in less than two months. He has a low ranked rating on British TV with the kind of reputation that is akin to Survivor and shows of similar ilk i.e. low production cost filler that the public will watch simply because nothing else is available. Derren also has a very ugly reputation for a number of reasons so let's not go there, I knew the guy long before he became the flavor of the month. BUT, Derren likewise proves exactly what I've been saying. . . Mental Magic is what's commercially appealing to the mass market; because his quasi-expose style and controversy one can readily argue that this is exactly what he's using because he belittles it all as being "trickery" while insulting most of the people he has assisting him. . . such as most skeptics tend to do when it comes to believers.

Frankly, Derren has never impressed me and I'm far from alone when it comes to that view. I find him boorish and a bit of a snob that looks down at others, but then I've seen that in far too many folks from the UK; being rude seems to be part of their culture.

Wiki is one of the least accurate reference sources going in that anyone that's a member can go in and edit any posting. I've personally changed or up-dated several such listings over the years with accurate information and links. So anyone can post most anything they want on that site, so let's not go there.

Anyhow. . . I will never change my position as it is obvious, neither will you, so enough.
 
Feb 4, 2008
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I've heard this whole excuse of "Language Evolution" for several years now, usually presented by persons well under 35 years of age that want to be smug and act like intellectuals as well as those that argue "Freedom of Expression" of all things. I short, it's a spoiled brats way of insisting that things be their way
HAHA....Right because taking a cheap shot like that proves your acting mature. To the point, It is just that way it is. Got nothing to do with trying to prove a point or prove I'm right. It is a point grounded in reality not obscure debating tactics.
My explanation is sustained by no fewer than a dozen major players in the Mentalism industry
And yet some of those same 12 guys are some of the same guys writing book forwards for some of the "new wave" of mentalists that you are openly at odds with. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't agree with you on much of what you say on a daily basis....but it is enough to politely ask you to quit hiding behind their coat tails in a debate. If fact, name dropping, just isn't good form in general.
Derren Brown is such a "King" of Mentalism that his attempt to break into the American market fell flat on its ass in less than two months. He has a low ranked rating on British TV with the kind of reputation that is akin to Survivor and shows of similar ilk i.e. low production cost filler that the public will watch simply because nothing else is available.
I have lived abroad for the last five years and can safely say that the most well known mentalist in the English speaking world (New Zealand, England, Ireland, Seychelle islands, Austrailia, and South Africa) is Derren Brown. Actually he is even more well known that Blaine in most of those places. (Sadly everyone knows who Angel is!) He didn't hit it of in the US but just about everbody else in the entire English speaking world are totally enthralled with the guy. I understand that for USA is #1, ethnocentric, isolationist, Anglophobes, that means nothing but if you travel the world as much as I have you tend to learn to respect the opinions of people in the rest of the world. And that is especially true on this point. He is doing something right in that he is connecting with a lot of lay people around the world. You don't have to necessarily like it but you shouldn't deny it. Even if you consider him part of the problem you should be honest about his strengths and weaknesses. Sun Tzu would tell you "If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles."
Frankly, Derren has never impressed me and I'm far from alone when it comes to that view. I find him boorish and a bit of a snob that looks down at others, but then I've seen that in far too many folks from the UK; being rude seems to be part of their culture.
That is fine because it is your opinion. You have every right to have it and frankly, from what I have heard, you are correct! Though I can't share the opinion about many others in the UK. I have some great friends over there and I travel there whenever I get a chance. Beautiful country and great people! I have never noticed them being rude more than any other culture. They are just people....If you are friendly and open you will tend to meet more friendly and open people. If you are a rude jerk you will tend to meet more rude jerks. That is the way it is in the US, Korea, English Isles, Peru, Equador, Ireland, France, and even Switzerland! That is what I have noticed in my travels and if you get the perspective of most travelers they will probably say something similar. Perhaps you need to knock the chip off your shoulder the next time you travel and you will have a better experience. But from the way you talk, frankly I'm not sure I want another "Ugly American" running around ruining it for the rest of us.
Wiki is one of the least accurate reference sources going in that anyone that's a member can go in and edit any posting. I've personally changed or up-dated several such listings over the years with accurate information and links. So anyone can post most anything they want on that site, so let's not go there.
It is the perfect place to go. And you are right....If you see something wrong.....Change it! It will start a debate and that is exactly the method Wikipedia uses to improve the accuracy of the information on the site. If you are mad because your suggestions are not being approved it is because the others on the site, likely as educated as you on the topic if they are willing to contribute to it, have decided that you don't have enough proper source material to make the change. So go out and find the proper documentation and your page edits will be approved.
Anyhow. . . I will never change my position as it is obvious, neither will you, so enough.

I'll agree on that point. To cut through all this I'll just state outright that my one and only real beef with you if your attempt to interject your of spiritual philosophies into discussions of mentalism. Sometimes you come right out and say it but usually you are a bit more subtle. I have read your posts for years and I have read all of your books and it is pretty clear to me that you think that, in order to be a good mentalist, you also have to subscribe to spiritualism or other esoteric philosophies. I don't agree with that. I also think that, to expand on another analogy I used earlier, if I jumped on a forum and basically told any budding Kids Magician that in order to do it right you had to be a "Christian Kids Magician" I would rub a lot of people the wrong way. You basically do the same thing with mentalism all the time and it just gets really old. There are plenty of great mentalists who are skeptics and still manage to intrigue and mystify a crowd without cheapening the art of Mentalism.
 
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