Teaching

[marens33]

I was recently performing at a party with a whole range of ages and the younger kids were loving my card routine. An hour or two later the father of one of the kids approached me and asked me if I would be willing to teach his son how to do magic for pay.

What should I do?

 

[WakingHollow]

Benn there and done that, i would say go for it with a couple of thing's make sure everything you teach is original and your own creation, also make sure if your going to teach make sure everyone that dosent want to learn magic make sure they aren't in the room so only the preson you teach know the secret's, next teach the basic's first such as the double liuft and ect, also negotiate a reasonable price.

 

[William Draven]

Unless you've got enough experience in knowing what you're doing then taking on students isn't a good idea. It's kind of silly to teach people how to drive a car when you've only got a learners permit yourself. Not saying in that analogy that I am making any assumptions on your skill level or experience. It's just an alliteration to a point.

Though depending on the kids skill level and relative interest you could probably make a couple extra bucks a week with basic lessons. I'm not a good teacher, and I have little patience for kids as it is so I can't say I'm able to offer you much advice here. However Rick Everhart (among others) on this forum is a teacher. I bet he could probably give you some pointers on how to put together a lesson plan that would be a win win for you and the student.

As I said I'm really not the best to give advice about teaching but I would start the student out with some simple... easy to do, make at home kind of magic illusions to perk the interest. You can probably go to your library and rent out some of those old "Boy Scout" at home magic trick books that were popular in the 80's and 90's. Hell... you can probably youtube that stuff too.

Failing that maybe some good self working tricks to get the ball rolling. Work your way up to basic utility moves like the glide, classic force, riffle force, x force, hindu shuffle, and double lift.

I would, and this really is kind of a "duh" statement, but make sure you don't teach anyone's published routines and or effects if you do take on the student.

If your student goes out and buys any kind of tricks on their own, then you could always work with them to help them learn it. You may even find it useful to charge an extra first lesson fee, and apply that money to purchasing Mark Wilsons Course in Magic for the student. That was you two have something to work from together. That and you'll know for sure that he/she will have a GOOD book in their library as their first magic book.

I know Reality One works with kids a lot too, though he's not always active here. May want to send him a message too and pick his brain.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Craig Browning]

I'm going to contradict what WalkingHallow says to some degree in that you can't teach the student "Original" material until they know the basics i.e. slight of hand. You have him buy either the Bill Tarr books or the Wilson Course -- a study guide that's well illustrated and you start at square one, learning the French Drop (the proper version . . . far too many people hold their hands wrong). Get the student proficient with sphere manipulation and then coins and finally cards and maybe move to odd items like cigarettes, dice, silks, etc. so they are able to have command of a variety of things and as such, the ability TO CREATE THEIR OWN MATERIAL while likewise understanding how to pull off classic routines such as Triumph, the Ambitious Card, Card on Ceiling, etc.

You're not there to expose commercial effects but to give the student a foundation in conventional magic. Other than some very basic bits (such as are found in Tarbell and the Wilson Course) don't confuse the student by introducing mentalism or bizarre magick. The psychology and approach run in contrast to regular magic so keep them on the one path for at least 18 -- 24 months, longer if they are under 16 years of age (that is tradition with very few exceptions)

There is so much a student can learn and more importantly, YOU WILL LEARN as you take this slow boat path on things. Mastery in slight-of-hand and over time, showmanship, will allow your student to excel in ways 99% of magic lovers will never known, because they wanted instant gratification vs. quality of skill.

Depending on your age, etc. $50.00 per class is what we were getting in the 70s. Unlike most industries Magic hasn't been allowed to keep up with the cost of living so stick with whatever area music teachers are charging. Check around and find the average price they charge as well as school tutors and you'll be able to offer a fair commercial rate.

Best of luck!

 

[marens33]

Thank you I might take this approach.

 

[RickEverhart]

Hey Gentleman, let me chime in here a bit from a teacher's stand point as well. First of all you need to provide us with some information such as:

1.) Age of the student

2.) Time constraints and Scheduling - He or she may be involved in other activities, clubs, sports, and most importantly they probably have homework to do as well after school or on the weekends.

3.) What is a reasonable fee for the client to pay as well. I'll be honest in say that even tutoring a child in school, most PUBLIC educators only get around $30.00 per hour. Keep in mind a younger child isn't going to sit still and be able to maintain focus for much more than that regardless of what their mother or father says. Craig's recommendation of $50.00 would be about right for an hour and a half magic lesson. Even though that might have been in the 70's, layman looking for lessons may not be expecting a fee that high in today's society. If it were me I'd probably charge $25.00 per hour and see how serious the student is.

4.) The child should learn the basics to lay his or her foundation and then move forward in techniques. I am in full agreement that starting simple with "build" it yourself magic effects would be great for the student. Rubber bands, Straws, paper clips and money, rope (use cheap clothesline rope from wWalmart) etc. Things that he or she probably has around the home.

Why? Because most students aren't going to pay for lessons and then also have to go out and purchase prepackaged tricks as well.

5.) Definitely go to the local library and check out books to show the student how many great thing are out there for free already.

6.) Keep in mind this student is going to want "INSTANT GRATIFICATION" as well. He or she will want to go home and be able to show friends and family a "trick' or two that they learned at their lesson. If you show them sleights that are going to take awhile to master...the student doesn't believe in their mind they are getting their money's worth. How do I know this? Because I've sat in the student seat before with my mentor showing me things and I know how it felt to go home and not have "effects" to show people who heard I was taking magic lessons.

7.) Give the child homework and have them show you progress as they return each time.

8.) You may or may not want them to be able to bring a camcorder or phone to record the steps to an effect. My mentor was okay with me filming certain sleights and steps to an effect but at first he made me bring note pad and pen and write things out to show him how serious I was.

I'm sure I'll think of more items but this should get the brain juices flowing....

 

[RickEverhart]

As far as a lesson plan format....you always start out with quick review of what you learned in the previous lesson first (like 5-10 minutes possibly), then move on to the new material for the day and then the last 10 minutes maybe allow them to ask you questions about anything they are struggling with or about routining or patter or pocket management...things like that.

Keep in mind what might seem really "easy" for you may not happen so quickly for them. For example: You may be able to dribble a deck of cards very nicely and they may want to learn that; however, they try for 20 minutes straight and cards are dropping all over your kitchen floor and they are becoming frustrated or the tears are welling up in their eyes. Be ready for this depending on how mature the child is.

Choice of material to teach will be important.

Also, talk with the parent about whether or not they will be dropping their child off at your home, or if you will have a "neutral" meeting place like a library, or if they are going to come to your home and the parent sits and waits on the couch and reads a book or something. If the parent tries to sit with you and the child at the table during the lesson, this could become a distraction. The child should look forward to coming to the lesson because it is a "cool" thing that just you and he / she are "in" on so to speak.

Most importantly: MAKE IT FUN!

 

[Josh Burch]

3.) What is a reasonable fee for the client to pay as well. I'll be honest in say that even tutoring a child in school, most PUBLIC educators only get around $30.00 per hour. Keep in mind a younger child isn't going to sit still and be able to maintain focus for much more than that regardless of what their mother or father says. Craig's recommendation of $50.00 would be about right for an hour and a half magic lesson. Even though that might have been in the 70's, layman looking for lessons may not be expecting a fee that high in today's society. If it were me I'd probably charge $25.00 per hour and see how serious the student is.

For 25 bucks a lesson you need to be providing a lot! They could buy a new DVD every week they had a lesson with you.

I took violin, piano and voice lessons as a kid through out high school. They were all weekly lessons and they were 7-15 dollars a week for a half our hour lesson. If you began getting into higher level things or you went to an academy it was about (and still is) about 25 dollars a half hour lesson. Once you start taking lessons from college professors and PHDs then you're getting into 60 and 70 bucks for lessons.

 

[RickEverhart]

Goatears,
For the past 2 years I paid my mentor $35 for hour and a half, private close up lessons. I thought and still believe that was a fair price.

As far as school teachers tutoring students outside of the classroom...anyone you talk to will tell you that $20-30 per hour is a standard fee to have your child tutored in school work.

I'm sure it is different wherever you go, but I just thought I'd share my experiences.

 

[RealityOne]

Although I work a lot with kids and have taught kids magic tricks as part of a show (nothing even approaching a French Drop or a Cross Cut force - if any worker is using the material I teach they have bigger problems the me teaching their methods) I haven't taught magic one on one.

That being said, I think the approach depends on the answers to Rick's questions as well as a sense of the teacher's skill level.

I agree with what Draven, Craig and Rick said, but also want to address Josh's (Goatears) comment.

If you are only teaching the student the basics which he could learn by himself from a book or DVD, you aren't adding any value and you are better off telling them to buy a DVD or book. The decision should be based on what is the best for the student.

The real question is what is the teacher adding and how much is that worth? (Realize that babysitters get paid somewhere around above $10 an hour, so if the dad is dropping the kid off it should be worth at least that).

 

[Mike.Hankins]

For 25 bucks a lesson you need to be providing a lot! They could buy a new DVD every week they had a lesson with you.

I took violin, piano and voice lessons as a kid through out high school. They were all weekly lessons and they were 7-15 dollars a week for a half our hour lesson. If you began getting into higher level things or you went to an academy it was about (and still is) about 25 dollars a half hour lesson. Once you start taking lessons from college professors and PHDs then you're getting into 60 and 70 bucks for lessons.

While this DOES seem like a high price...
Consider this:

A regular DVD...let's say Marley and Me (for the sake of comedy) runs roughly $9.99. A DVD on magic that teaches multiple effects, sleights and theory is gonna set you back about $30-40.

So now think about how COMMON piano players are. How COMMON guitar players are. Google piano instruction with your zipcode and look how many come up.

We are in a field that has very few people practicing, let alone teaching. So to find someone who is skilled enough to teach and teach properly IS going to set you back some dinero!

I spent a few different weekends taking private lessons from Eugene Burger. Wasn't cheap. At all...but the information I gained was something that I really couldn't find in a DVD or even in a book. It's happening to you, and it's personal.

Just my $.82 cents worth...

 

[Craig Browning]

I spent a few different weekends taking private lessons from Eugene Burger. Wasn't cheap. At all...but the information I gained was something that I really couldn't find in a DVD or even in a book. It's happening to you, and it's personal.

I have a pretty good idea what Eugene would ask for but then I've had a couple of teachers that are known for a flat $1,000.00+ a day rate and if travel were involved, more than a two day minimum was the norm. But we're talking about some seriously advanced classes.

To me $25.00 for anything more than a 15 minute teaser class isn't wise; you are creating a potential competitor within your own regional market. If it's a poor little rich kid, CHARGE MONEY in that they will not care about stepping on your toes a year or so down the road and take cash from your pocket; I've seen it happen far too many times.

Several people have argued that teaching someone the basics won't go over when they've be better off with a book of DVD. . . I find that appalling and rather myopic given that every art form requires the student to learn the fundamentals and in order to learn them properly you must have someone that knows those techniques that can teach them . . . making certain your form is correct. Many a major player, even when they were stars of the trade, paid big money to the Chavez School of Magic for many years, to learn these basics and become superior technicians. This same school took people from novice to pro for decades by the hands of Niel Foster, Dale Salwak, and Norm Nielsen to name a few, the the per lesson price wasn't cheap.

If you sit down with a student and book and walk through each move together, you help that student gain a far more rounded understanding of things; this is the same principle used in public schools and other learning institutions that's worked for more than a few hundred years now. But as part of that lesson you show them how to use that move; walk them through a handful of routines using one and then more and more moves and within a short period of time you challenge them to create their own routine combination using that foundation material. This is what brings about growth but it does something else that's rather important; it helps weed out those that just want to learn a trick. We serve no one when we just teach them "tricks" and I can assure you, this sort of impatient student have little to no respect for the craft.

A few of you here I've kind of pulled under wing and I'm not asking for anything from you. I took you on as a "student" (figuratively) because you show tenacity and initiative. This is what you need to consider when taking on a possible student; think like Mr. Miyagi in how to help the prospect EARN and VALUE what you are sharing. When you can find the student that's willing to do whatever it takes to LEARN you and that student, will go much further in the relationship than money can buy.

My point is, if someone is going to take up your time it needs to be valuable to you. Money is one thing that makes it a thing of value but it is not always the driving force, sometimes it's not worth any sum of cash whatsoever.

 

[Josh Burch]

Goatears,
For the past 2 years I paid my mentor $35 for hour and a half, private close up lessons. I thought and still believe that was a fair price.

As far as school teachers tutoring students outside of the classroom...anyone you talk to will tell you that $20-30 per hour is a standard fee to have your child tutored in school work.

I'm sure it is different wherever you go, but I just thought I'd share my experiences.

We are talking about the same prices. 15 dollars for a half hour IS 30 dollars for an hour. Sorry to be misunderstood

I meant to point out that you need to be providing more than the student can learn in a book or a DVD. Routining, scripting, character, audience involvment, and you need to give the feedback that only you can give.

 

[RickEverhart]

Ha...my bad. I thought you meant $15 for an hour. I just misread your sentence. I thought you were insane for a second...
I guess I should read more carefully.

And yes, you definitely want to provide more than what you can learn on a DVD or in a book. I totally agree. There are things my mentor has shown and discussed with me that would not be found on a DVD.

Craig, I had never really heard of Chavez until I was at MagiFest in Columbus two years ago and I heard many people talking about certain older people in their 50's being Chavez students. I've heard it was a pretty rigorous course but those who made it all the way through and put forth the effort are VERY talented magicians.

 

[Randy]

Usually a mentor (if they are good and know what they are talking about/doing) can often help smooth out the learning curb on some things as well as help out with questions that books or DVD's usually don't answer. Such as Misdirection, timing and other things in those categories.

 

[RealityOne]

If you are only teaching the student the basics which he could learn by himself from a book or DVD, you aren't adding any value and you are better off telling them to buy a DVD or book. The decision should be based on what is the best for the student.

Several people have argued that teaching someone the basics won't go over when they've be better off with a book of DVD. . . I find that appalling and rather myopic given that every art form requires the student to learn the fundamentals and in order to learn them properly you must have someone that knows those techniques that can teach them . . . making certain your form is correct.

***

If you sit down with a student and book and walk through each move together, you help that student gain a far more rounded understanding of things; this is the same principle used in public schools and other learning institutions that's worked for more than a few hundred years now. But as part of that lesson you show them how to use that move; walk them through a handful of routines using one and then more and more moves and within a short period of time you challenge them to create their own routine combination using that foundation material. This is what brings about growth but it does something else that's rather important; it helps weed out those that just want to learn a trick. We serve no one when we just teach them "tricks" and I can assure you, this sort of impatient student have little to no respect for the craft.

I think the difference between my advice and your advice are that I'm making some assumptions which would lead to the conclusion that "you are only teaching the student the basics...." My assumptions are that it is possible that the teacher's abilities are not advanced enough to teach more than the basics and that the student's interest is, as you said, in learning tricks. By the basics, I am thinking about key card concepts, basic card shuffles, cross cut force, french drop, finger palm for coins, etc. that are necessary to perform basic tricks. I think that "fundamentals" is a more broad concept that includes more advanced techniques such as double lifts, classic forces, classic palm, retention vanishes, one ahead principles, equivoque as well as a strong dose of theory (which is what I would call the explanation of why what you are doing works). In my mind the difference between basics and fundamentals is what you classify as the difference is between teaching/learning "tricks" and teaching/learning "magic."

I don't assume that everyone who thinks they can teach magic actually has the skills or that everyone who is interested in magic wants to learn more than tricks. There are things you can easily learn from books and DVDs and things that you can only learn from working with an experienced magician. If the teacher does not have the experience or the student does not want to learn more than tricks -- then sending telling the student that they are better off getting a book or DVD is the right thing to do.

I suspect that the father is asking this question because he believes that being taught one on one is the ONLY way to learn magic. I'll be honest, I was in my late 30s until I found out that most of the secrets of magic were there for the buying in books and DVDs. I just don't think that is it right to charge someone $200 over a month or two and teach them what they could easily learn from Mark Wilson's book or a DVD from Michael Ammar or Daryl. Again, my assumption is that the teacher is not adding any additional value from what is in the book.

A few of you here I've kind of pulled under wing and I'm not asking for anything from you. I took you on as a "student" (figuratively) because you show tenacity and initiative. This is what you need to consider when taking on a possible student; think like Mr. Miyagi in how to help the prospect EARN and VALUE what you are sharing. When you can find the student that's willing to do whatever it takes to LEARN you and that student, will go much further in the relationship than money can buy.

My point is, if someone is going to take up your time it needs to be valuable to you. Money is one thing that makes it a thing of value but it is not always the driving force, sometimes it's not worth any sum of cash whatsoever.

I agree, but also think that if someone is going to pay you for your time, it has to be valuable to them - at least more valuable than their alternatives.

I work a lot with people designing routines, shows and acts - doing what Larry Haas calls turning tricks into magic by developing a presentation (routining effects, developing a script and adding the "bits and pieces" that make the presentation seem professional) for the effects that makes them professional performance pieces. Like you, I don't charge. Why? (As you know) I'm tired of seeing magicians who suck because they just perform the trick with say-do-see patter.

 

[Craig Browning]

I had never really heard of Chavez until I was at MagiFest in Columbus two years ago and I heard many people talking about certain older people in their 50's being Chavez students. I've heard it was a pretty rigorous course but those who made it all the way through and put forth the effort are VERY talented magicians.

I think Dale Salwak is still teaching but he's the last of the original crew, which is sad. It was an excellent "real world" (for the era) institution but that was also the problem, it was an "institution" and as such, became dogmatic over time and not able to evolve with how magic was changing and moving away from the Channing Pollock and Fantasio style of classic magic toward a higher dynamic. I believe there is a chance to restore the school concept if the right handful of people would dedicate themselves to it and bring it more into the present while preserving some of the key principles and practices that made the school a major notch in the belt of the true professional/semi-pro act.

R1, we are kind of on the same plane with things just looking at it from different points & degree. Nearly every coach & teacher I had in the early years taught me more or less in the manner I described. Then again, there were those old magic shop owners that would sell you a specific series of books in a very specific order and tell you to study this chapter and then the next AFTER you had come in and demonstrated that you learned the material in the first assignment; you could not progress without some sort of "final exam" which is a far cry from how things are today. It could take you a couple of years just to wade through Tarbell (the standard of the era) let alone some of the other compositions we push students towards today, like Royal Road and Bobo.