theory11 decks are getting more expensive

rudolph

Elite Member
Mar 21, 2011
43
0
The recent releases such as Monarchs, Silver Monarchs and Rebels are all priced at 6.95 ( On average , the past theory11 decks was about 4.95 & 5.95 ) I know t11 has designed and the finish is premium 909 finish , but 6.95 + 1.50 shipping = 7.50 a deck . So does anyone thinks so too ? Hope that there's discount when we get 3 or more decks for each particular deck . ( there's only discount for orders more than 6 decks currently )
 

formula

Elite Member
Jan 8, 2010
968
5
Think about how people around the world feel. Cards from America work out at around £9 per deck ($15ish) in the UK and it's even mor expensive for other places.
 
Mar 16, 2012
31
0
Just saying, I think that if they design them themselves it should cost less since they aren't paying a designer. Also, since none of them are Bicycle Branded it should cost less. Another thing, they don't use the best stock (which is Bee Casino NOT Aristocrat) and 909 Premium finish is not a real thing. USPCC only uses Air-Cushion and Magic Finish. But will allow you to write anything you want on the box. However, the foil, metallic inks, and embossing on the tuck case drive up the cost. Overall, I believe that Theory11 decks cost roughly $4 per deck to produce. Add in the fact that Card-collecting is a small hobby and they need to make a profit, so that should mean they sell at about $5.50 per deck. Just my two cents.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
Theory11 is going to strive to be the most profitable as possible. They make the cards the way they do because people buy them.

They are the price that they are because people will buy them for that price.

They are the quality that they are because that is what their consumers expect.

These decks are marketed as superior so the prices match that title.
 
Feb 7, 2011
362
1
Just saying, I think that if they design them themselves it should cost less since they aren't paying a designer. Also, since none of them are Bicycle Branded it should cost less. Another thing, they don't use the best stock (which is Bee Casino NOT Aristocrat) and 909 Premium finish is not a real thing. USPCC only uses Air-Cushion and Magic Finish. But will allow you to write anything you want on the box. However, the foil, metallic inks, and embossing on the tuck case drive up the cost. Overall, I believe that Theory11 decks cost roughly $4 per deck to produce. Add in the fact that Card-collecting is a small hobby and they need to make a profit, so that should mean they sell at about $5.50 per deck. Just my two cents.

Im not an expert on card production by any means but, Ill go out on a limb and say you're wrong. The best stock is a matter of opinion so you cant really be 'wrong' about that. However, there is air cushion finish, magic finish, but there are also cambric and ivory. I THINK. Ivory finish is used on aladdins and a bunch of the conjuring arts decks. And cambric finish is on standard bee's, but im not sure about that. i am sure however, that bee's are not the same air-cushion finish as bikes. Anyone who's held both decks cold tell you that.

But you are right in a sense, that there are not as many different stocks and finishes as people think, it would not make business sense for the USPCC to have all this equipment they dont use regularly.
 
Aug 30, 2012
232
1
In my opinion you have to take into consideration the man hours put into the design, from rough sketches to the inks to the layers on the embossing to the stock of the paper. I have handled a few different decks myself from Bikes to Tally-Ho's to Rebels and I can say the stock is different and the finish is not the same. They have a different finish and feel to them. Its not a Theory11 lie. You are paying for quality and time. Its not just as simple as printing a design on a deck of Bicycles and calling it (insert name here) If it were that simple they wouldnt be selling many because people would notice. If you want affordable look into Tally-Ho's and Bee's and Bikes. I understand about how prices seem high. Its hard to order some of these at times but when I order them I know I'm getting quality and a higher level of craftsmanship.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
Just saying, I think that if they design them themselves it should cost less since they aren't paying a designer.

First, just because the designer works for the company, doesn't mean they aren't paying one. They employ designers, therefore, they have to pay those designers. It doesn't matter if it's an outside company or not.

Second, they sometimes do employ outside designers, such as with the Steampunk deck.

Also, since none of them are Bicycle Branded it should cost less.

Actually, this makes it cost more. When the USPCC prints Bicycle decks, they get all the profit. When they print something for someone else, they only get some of the profit, and they don't get to print their own products while the other brand is being printed. Therefore, they charge more to print brands that are not their own. This is common sense business.

Another thing, they don't use the best stock (which is Bee Casino NOT Aristocrat)

They use what they consider to be the best for the product. While I haven't compared them all, I believe this largely comes down to personal preference.

and 909 Premium finish is not a real thing. USPCC only uses Air-Cushion and Magic Finish. But will allow you to write anything you want on the box.

Wrong. I don't know if it's still in force, but for a while anyone using the word 'Bicycle' on the box had to put Air Cushion Finish, no matter what the finish was. Also, there's some posts floating around the internets describing how pretty much all of the finishes are actually the same thing, with different names grandfathered in.

However, the foil, metallic inks, and embossing on the tuck case drive up the cost.

Indeed.

Overall, I believe that Theory11 decks cost roughly $4 per deck to produce. Add in the fact that Card-collecting is a small hobby and they need to make a profit, so that should mean they sell at about $5.50 per deck. Just my two cents.

Do you have a lot of experience in the card-production industry? I ask this as I have no idea who you are, but you are speaking as if you are an authority on the subject. Could you point me toward some reports that support your claim? 'Cause it seems to me like you're pulling numbers out of thin air.

When it gets down to brass tacks, as goatears said, T11 and other companies charge what they charge because they need to make a profit and people will pay it.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
If you live over seas I'm sorry but you don't have to chose Theory11 decks. It sucks, but you can chose any variety of your own countries cards. No one is forcing you to buy these cards but yourself.
 
Mar 16, 2012
31
0
First, just because the designer works for the company, doesn't mean they aren't paying one. They employ designers, therefore, they have to pay those designers. It doesn't matter if it's an outside company or not.

Second, they sometimes do employ outside designers, such as with the Steampunk deck.



Actually, this makes it cost more. When the USPCC prints Bicycle decks, they get all the profit. When they print something for someone else, they only get some of the profit, and they don't get to print their own products while the other brand is being printed. Therefore, they charge more to print brands that are not their own. This is common sense business.



They use what they consider to be the best for the product. While I haven't compared them all, I believe this largely comes down to personal preference.



Wrong. I don't know if it's still in force, but for a while anyone using the word 'Bicycle' on the box had to put Air Cushion Finish, no matter what the finish was. Also, there's some posts floating around the internets describing how pretty much all of the finishes are actually the same thing, with different names grandfathered in.



Indeed.



Do you have a lot of experience in the card-production industry? I ask this as I have no idea who you are, but you are speaking as if you are an authority on the subject. Could you point me toward some reports that support your claim? 'Cause it seems to me like you're pulling numbers out of thin air.

When it gets down to brass tacks, as goatears said, T11 and other companies charge what they charge because they need to make a profit and people will pay it.

Yes, I do have experience. Also, I am 100% sure that Premium 909 finish is not real. Another thing, since it isn't Bicycle branded, they can write any finish they want. While what you say about Bicycle branding makes since, I know by getting quotes from the USPCC that it cost more per deck if you put Bicycle on it. While stock is a personal preference, I suppose I meant Cost wise, they don't choose the most expensive. With the Steampunk deck, it still cost less for us to buy, so designers mustn't play a huge role in cost. Last thing, I actually really like Theory11 decks, I'm just stating facts here.
 
Mar 16, 2012
31
0
However, there is air cushion finish, magic finish, but there are also cambric and ivory. I THINK. Ivory finish is used on aladdins and a bunch of the conjuring arts decks. And cambric finish is on standard bee's, but im not sure about that. i am sure however, that bee's are not the same air-cushion finish as bikes. Anyone who's held both decks cold tell you that.

But you are right in a sense, that there are not as many different stocks and finishes as people think, it would not make business sense for the USPCC to have all this equipment they dont use regularly.

About the Ivory vs. Cambric finish, the Ivory just means smooth finish, it is still the same chemical make-up as Air-cushion I believe, but without the dimpling pressed in. Whereas Cambric is another term for Air-cushion. However, in the Cincinnati plant, Cambric, linoid, and a few other finishes existed. But they were discontinued when the plant moved.
 
If you live over seas I'm sorry but you don't have to chose Theory11 decks. It sucks, but you can chose any variety of your own countries cards. No one is forcing you to buy these cards but yourself.

goatears, I see your point, but T11 have awesome designs. T11, E and D&D all in my opinion make the best cards design-wise. Also, Magic websites over here tend to sell decks from all of the above retailers decks making them more sort after in the UK. The only custom cards we have over here are from Big Blind Media and they tend to have skulls all over the cards. Plus they are also on Bike stock (whatever that is) so the price doesn't change because they are a UK company, plus as well they tend to use a designer on them (Sam Hayes I think...)

The UK playing cards are made by Waddingtons. No Magician over here that I know of uses them, despite them being our national deck of cards. The fact that UK companies that want cards being made don't go to Waddingtons must say something for their quality compared with USPCC.

Simon_Magic
 
I'm going to preserve the original post, for now, as it was. I may be wrong with some of the things I've said. I think it's important to not cover up those mistakes. I've wrestled with my position on the custom deck subject for years now and haven't found a comfortable foothold that I like just yet. I can see the pro's and the con's to the situation, and even tried to pen some of my thinking below. Doesn't make me an authority, nor does it make me right in any way. After thinking more about the subject while reading the few posts that have followed mine, and reflecting on my own post, I think I'm going to take up a public position of "do what you will so long as it makes you happy and hurts no one else." There are many reasons to collect, buy, trade, or sell custom decks and taking a hard performance stance isn't fair to the others, the collectors, the cardists, etc in our midst who also share this forum space. Too often it is easy to look at the world from a "me" perspective and interpret things as they would apply to one self and in the process lose touch with the humanity of it all. I think, the more I look at my post, that's what is happening here. To that extent I think I'm going to take the opportunity now to back peddle a little to find more sure footing in this conversation.



Bottom line. Companies like Theory11, and Ellusionist did to a regular deck of cards what Pokemon did to baseball cards. They created a niche market by establishing a collectible commodity and then (very smartly I might add) cultivated a community that feeds upon this commodity by using those cards in their own videos and jumping on the new cardistry movement.

I've said it for years now; There is very little performance difference between a regular rider back bicycle deck and many of the custom decks produced by companies like Theory11, Ellusionist, Dan & Dave, etc. So long as you're not using cheap 99c store decks with crappy finishes then your choice of deck used really comes down to personal preference for aesthetics.

Companies like Theory11 (and the like) know that they have cornered the market. They know that there really is only a handful of companies who are producing custom decks, and they mostly seem to be magicians so it's not like they've got a lot of competition. Niche market, collectability, high demand, and few competitors is just a recipe for higher deck prices. Prices that they know you're going to pay, because frankly you don't have a lot of other options. Prices that you'll gladly pay because of the psychological effects generated by owning a "rare" "limited edition" deck create a strong sense of gratification and communal belonging as demonstrated by the countless bragging posts we see on the forums. "I just ordered 3 bricks of XXX card brand", or "I have 40$ to spend on cards, which decks should I get?" Of course there's also the entrepreneur who buys into this craze with hopes of reselling the decks at a later date and making double their investment back. Come to think of it these are the same guys who price gouged people on those darn hard to find foil Charizards too.

'Draven! I'm ashamed of you! How can you be so jaded?' I know I know... I can hear your thoughts already. Won't be the first time I've been called a spoil sport. I've been the wet blanket to many a custom deck thread both here and abroad. I've been asked why I can't just let the kiddies indulge themselves and have their fun. Why I constantly feel like I need to be the bully who comes in and destroys the fun. I've never really committed myself to providing any real answer to those questions. Perhaps it's because until typing this reply out now I've never really sat down and thought it through. Just what about the entire custom deck thing is it that gets under my skin so easily? It is true that I myself use custom decks. So how is it then that I am not a hypocrite to my own self?

I think the answer may lie in the mindset as to how the custom deck trend is approached. Magic is, to me, a very sacred thing. It's steeped in tradition, it's something that one should be proud of, and you shouldn't take advantage of it. Cards to the magician is nothing more than another tool. One that despite all the fancy rhetoric tossed about the internet hasn't really changed all that much as far as improvements go. You never see anyone brag about what brand dancing cane they bought, nor do conversations erupt about what kind of expanded shell should you use at your local forum. Schoolcraft or Johnson's? Anybody? So what makes cards so different? What is it about the hype around deck releases that sell them faster than any other magic prop that we can compare to?

Only with cards do we really see this kind of nonsense. I think the problem I have with the entire mess is the contrived idea that a "special" deck of cards produced by a magic company is somehow better than anything else on the market just because it has some flashy flavor text. It is this demand for this kind of phenomenon, and companies who are more than willing to take your money hand over fist is where I get off at. Because I feel almost as if the entire subculture wrapped around the custom decks somehow cheapens the art. Magicians (kids really, In the maturity sense, not so much the chronological way) who think that by purchasing these "special" cards makes them any cooler of an individual or their magic more profound. Like by somehow buying, opening, and using a rare/custom/limited deck will make your double lift that much cooler to the layman. Honestly your average audience member wouldn't know the difference between a deck of Jerry's Nuggets and a deck of 99cent dollar store brand cards if they saw them and the only thing they would care about is how entertaining you were. Not what you were using. So if you're going to use a custom deck then do so because you like the deck, or because it suits your character, or buy from a brand because you support the artist or company. Make it a personal preference if you must, but be reverent of the fact that you should be able to exchange any deck for another and still be able to deliver the same level of awe, mystique, and inspiration to your audiences regardless of the brand or back design. It's not the deck that makes you magical. It's you that is special. The deck is just a pile of paper in your hands.

So what if you just want to collect the decks for collecting sake? Sure! That's not a bad idea. Hell magicians have collected magical props and paraphernalia for decades. Houdini artifacts tend to sell quite well at auctions, as do vintage props, and books. So why shouldn't collecting cards have its place? If that's your intent then the majority of this post doesn't apply to you. In fact collecting decks of cards has already proven to be a viable market seeing as how some older decks sell for in the hundreds on Ebay. So yes I can see how taking a chance on a product release, buying a brick or two of cards in the off chance that they go big (and go out of print) could be quite profitable. In that case you're going to make a profit off everyone's folly. As I said the majority of my post isn't for you.

The people that I do challenge is the ones who think that a single deck of cards will make or break their performances. Sure they can help add flavor, but make no mistake YOU are the magic.

I digress... that was a very long rant. All to say that the prices are expensive because they can be, and that the companies know you're going to pay it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
Learn to perform with a hard to use deck of cards. Take that old deck of Bikes/tallys/whatever that you've had in your dresser for awhile and start learning to work with it.

While it is a great feeling using cards that are smooth as butter, the main thing you should learn is how to use crappy cards when or if that happens. (Ironically, I practiced a lot with Lee Ashers cards for awhile and they were hard to break in and work with, but after awhile I found that my control over the cards was much more precise and refined, because I had to work harder with them.)
 
Aug 30, 2012
232
1
The bottom line is if you want them for whatever the reason then you want them. If you dont want to pay the price then don't. If you don't want them then reading this entire thread is pointless for the most part, and if you are willing to pay the price for the cards (again for whatever reason) then all the rants about how this is just another way to chapen an art is pointless babble. The cards don't cheapen the art. I buy decks because I love the art and if I am working on my flourishes and I have to look at the cards for a long period of time I want them to look good. I notice and if I notice then it matters to me. I can feel the difference in the cards even if everyone else says there is none. I'm ok with the price. I love flourishing, and the cards I use make me happy with the visuals. thats what matters
 
Dec 29, 2011
703
17
and for me it would cost $7.22 like it has been said before if you dont want to buy the cards no one is forcing you to

Not that you represent t11 in any way, but that is the most horrible PR policy I've ever heard. Thats exactly like those attention seeking kind of pictures you see on facebook, when somebody comments on it, they're usually immediately met with something along the lines of: "If you don't like it then don't look at it", which I'm sure we can publicly agree that it is one of the most annoying things a person can do. Theory11 market the crap out of their decks, they make the biggest point of their exclusiveness, embossed boxes, and painstakingly designed backs. It is also the most expensive place you can buy cards, when your strategy is to sell as many decks as possible, high cost is a recipe for disaster. Complaints about high prices is the least they should expect when products are thrown in our faces like that.
 
Not that you represent t11 in any way, but that is the most horrible PR policy I've ever heard. Thats exactly like those attention seeking kind of pictures you see on facebook, when somebody comments on it, they're usually immediately met with something along the lines of: "If you don't like it then don't look at it", which I'm sure we can publicly agree that it is one of the most annoying things a person can do. Theory11 market the crap out of their decks, they make the biggest point of their exclusiveness, embossed boxes, and painstakingly designed backs. It is also the most expensive place you can buy cards, when your strategy is to sell as many decks as possible, high cost is a recipe for disaster. Complaints about high prices is the least they should expect when products are thrown in our faces like that.

Yet look at Apple. Consistent sales, long lines for new releases, and premium prices. High prices hasn't hurt them one bit. If you're good at what you do, and people want what you offer then they will always meet your price.

Ultimately you're right Austin. Do what you want to do because you want to do it. It's your money, spend it how you see fit. I buy cards because they need to work for me first and foremost, and look right secondly.

I've gone ahead and modified my earlier post to reflect my position as I continue to turn the custom deck subject over in my mind.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dec 29, 2011
703
17
Yet look at Apple. Consistent sales, long lines for new releases, and premium prices. High prices hasn't hurt them one bit. If you're good at what you do, and people want what you offer then they will always meet your price.

Ultimately you're right Austin. Do what you want to do because you want to do it. It's your money, spend it how you see fit. I buy cards because they need to work for me first and foremost, and look right secondly.

I've gone ahead and modified my earlier post to reflect my position as I continue to turn the custom deck subject over in my mind.

Please read my last sentence again, and yes Apple is a great example, people constantly complain about their high prices.
 
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