time to go back to the old way?

[S3al]

Just wanted to see what you people think about this. Sorry, sort of a long read.


Everyone here (I hope), we see magic as being something special, its not a trick, its not about acting cool, or getting people to like you. It's about creating something special, showing someone something amazing. And to do this, we practice, a lot. We help each other to become stronger better performers.

Thats us, that is what I have experienced here at t11. Now you are probably wondering where this post is going, so ill just get there already. We have a big problem, There seems to be a lot of people out there that do everything for the wrong reason. Its all about them when they do the effect, they have no respect for magic. They don't want to take the time to practice, so they expose the effects on video uploading sites. Rest assure, this post is not about exposure, its about disrespecting magic in all aspects.

So, we all at one point have asked our self, how can we help? How can we stop a problem that is growing, and has no signs of slowing down any time soon. I mean, magic is being marketed, theres even new shows coming out with magic, that seem like American idol, but with magic. Magic is becoming more popular. But, I don't think this is a good thing, considering that one of the things we rely on most about magic, is its secrecy. But we are slowly losing that.

Let me put it this way, it may seem a little weird, but I find this the best way to describe whats happening.

The CIA, yep, I said it would be weird. But the more you talk about the CIA, the more we find out that we have the same idea. For one, we both rely on secrets. And we don't just want anyone to join do we? The CIA does background checks before they let anyone in. I mean you would not want anyone coming in and exposing (hint hint) everything would you? And of course, they have to make sure you value your country (hint our art).


This is sort of what we did with magic way back then. So my question to you is, yes it took a wile, but should we go back to the secrecy we use to have? should we really go underground, or what ever you want to call it. Should you not have to show that you care about this art? and you are serious before you can learn it? Should these secrets be able to be bought by anyone who has money? or should it take more then that? should we go back to the old way in a sense?

So, what our your thoughts on this?

 

[BlueBackedBikes]

Here's something to think about; if magic were truly underground as you're describing, you would not be a magician right now.

That would suck, wouldn't it?

Now think of all the future magicians you would be depriving of this great experience if magic were truly underground.

(Now I'm not addressing you directly, but 'you' as in whoever is reading this post.)

Now two statements to shock you:
1) There is nothing we can do to stop the exposure of magic on sites like YouTube.
2) Those exposure videos do not affect us, our spectators or our magic.

People don't go home and look up magic exposure videos online so that, on the off chance that they meet a magician in their life who is performing that very trick, they can say 'Ha! I know how it's done!'.

 

[S3al]

Here's something to think about; if magic were truly underground as you're describing, you would not be a magician right now.

That would suck, wouldn't it?

I'm not saying that magic should be so secret that theres no place to learn magic. My whole post was about, should it be more secret? in other words, maybe dumb magicians like Chris angel, who most kids model them self after, he should stop reveling tricks on his shows now mater how stupid they are. Because people will copy it, and they are.


I'm not saying, everyone has to go through a background check, thats dumb, I think we agree, and impossible. What I am saying however is, I would like to see a place where only magicians, that care about magic and put the time and effort into it, would be invited to an underground, (I use this term because I can't think of another way of saying it) where only certain tricks and slights would be released there, and not available to just anyone. Because we are practicing the heck out of things, and I would like to know that at least some of the effects I learn, wont end up all over the net.

But we would need a place like I was describing, for that to happen.

 

[Steerpike]

You have the makings of what I refer to as kvlt kiddie syndrome (pronounced "cult kiddie"). Those of you from E probably know what I'm talking about, but for those of you not familiar with the term, let me explain.

I'm heavily into metal. What a lot of people don't realize is that metal has a diverse web of subgenres ranging from the bombastic and upbeat power metal, to the bleak dirges of doom metal, to the epic folk-influenced Viking metal. One particular subgenre that came about in the late-80's/early-90's was black metal.

Black metal can be borderline unlistenable with high treble and distortion, heavy reverb, blast beats, exptremely minimalist production, and inhuman vocals rasping themes of anti-establishment anarchy, violence, mysticism, anti-Christian sentiments, and other unpleasant topics. It's a very difficult genre to get into, and for many it's an acquired taste.

Black metal truly took shape in Norway's underground music scene with bands like Mayhem, Burzum, and Immortal and was influenced by the works of Celtic Frost, early Bathory, and Venom. The scene was populated mostly by psychopaths with strong anti-mainstream artistic outlooks. Not only was their music punishing and defiant of many conventions of music theory (transitioning to all minor chords in a progression regardless of key with full distortion to create maximum dissonance), they also dressed up in leather, chains, spikes, clothes they had buried and later exhumed, and most famously corpsepaint so as to make sure their image was as virulently anti-mainstream as their music.

This attitude still persists today, despite many of the more extreme members of the genre either dead or otherwise removed from the scene (see: the story of Mayhem). And it's had a side-effect that was not entirely unexpected. The scene is dying.

Because the artists in black metal were so obsessed with staying underground, they made it extremely difficult to rotate in new blood. Everything is being recycled and rehashed while the bands refuse to do any kind of promotion or advertising because of their views of the recording and entertainment industries. About a year ago, dozens of black metal bands attempted to have their profiles removed from the prolific web site Metal Archives, a wiki which keeps a small dossier on every known metal band on the planet (provided they have at least one release). The site administrators refused to honor their request and coined the term kvlt kiddies to mock them, in reference to an inside joke in the metal community about black metal taking itself seriously with labels such as kvlt and nekro, none of which any self-respecting black metal fan would use sincerely.

Now that this little history lesson is over, do you see how it applies to magic?

 

[S3al]

You have the makings of what I refer to as kvlt kiddie syndrome (pronounced "cult kiddie"). Those of you from E probably know what I'm talking about, but for those of you not familiar with the term, let me explain.

I'm heavily into metal. What a lot of people don't realize is that metal has a diverse web of subgenres ranging from the bombastic and upbeat power metal, to the bleak dirges of doom metal, to the epic folk-influenced Viking metal. One particular subgenre that came about in the late-80's/early-90's was black metal.

Black metal can be borderline unlistenable with high treble and distortion, heavy reverb, blast beats, exptremely minimalist production, and inhuman vocals rasping themes of anti-establishment anarchy, violence, mysticism, anti-Christian sentiments, and other unpleasant topics. It's a very difficult genre to get into, and for many it's an acquired taste.

Black metal truly took shape in Norway's underground music scene with bands like Mayhem, Burzum, and Immortal and was influenced by the works of Celtic Frost, early Bathory, and Venom. The scene was populated mostly by psychopaths with strong anti-mainstream artistic outlooks. Not only was their music punishing and defiant of many conventions of music theory (transitioning to all minor chords in a progression regardless of key with full distortion to create maximum dissonance), they also dressed up in leather, chains, spikes, clothes they had buried and later exhumed, and most famously corpsepaint so as to make sure their image was as virulently anti-mainstream as their music.

This attitude still persists today, despite many of the more extreme members of the genre either dead or otherwise removed from the scene (see: the story of Mayhem). And it's had a side-effect that was not entirely unexpected. The scene is dying.

Because the artists in black metal were so obsessed with staying underground, they made it extremely difficult to rotate in new blood. Everything is being recycled and rehashed while the bands refuse to do any kind of promotion or advertising because of their views of the recording and entertainment industries. About a year ago, dozens of black metal bands attempted to have their profiles removed from the prolific web site Metal Archives, a wiki which keeps a small dossier on every known metal band on the planet (provided they have at least one release). The site administrators refused to honor their request and coined the term kvlt kiddies to mock them, in reference to an inside joke in the metal community about black metal taking itself seriously with labels such as kvlt and nekro, none of which any self-respecting black metal fan would use sincerely.

Now that this little history lesson is over, do you see how it applies to magic?

Read my above post.

 

[The Dark Angel]

I don't really see how black metal relates to magic, but I think I saw your overall point.

 

[Steerpike]

in other words, maybe dumb magicians like Chris angel, who most kids model them self after, he should stop reveling tricks on his shows now mater how stupid they are. Because people will copy it, and they are.

Or maybe we should develop a thicker skin.

What I am saying however is, I would like to see a place where only magicians, that care about magic and put the time and effort into it, would be invited to an underground, (I use this term because I can't think of another way of saying it) where only certain tricks and slights would be released there, and not available to just anyone.

We already have that. Local magic clubs.

Because we are practicing the heck out of things, and I would like to know that at least some of the effects I learn, wont end up all over the net.

The solution to that is to invent effects and share them with no one. I have a couple of effects I've created and have yet to tell any other magicians how it's done. Only one other person has figured out the secret to my Katana effect, and that's because I had to tell him for the sake of a performance in which he would be the host of the lecture and I would be the entertainment using custom-tailored magic to make a point.

 

[S3al]

We already have that. Local magic clubs.



The solution to that is to invent effects and share them with no one. I have a couple of effects I've created and have yet to tell any other magicians how it's done. Only one other person has figured out the secret to my Katana effect, and that's because I had to tell him for the sake of a performance in which he would be the host of the lecture and I would be the entertainment using custom-tailored magic to make a point.

1. I don't have any magic clubs shops, or anything where I live.

2. Who said we would share them with no one? I said certain effects I wish would only be shared with those who poor there heart and soul into there art. If there are that few of us (no one) then we have a problem.

 

[Steerpike]

1. I don't have any magic clubs shops, or anything where I live.

Then it's going to take some conscious effort on your part to organize one.

2. Who said we would share them with no one? I said certain effects I wish would only be shared with those who poor there heart and soul into there art. If there are that few of us (no one) then we have a problem.

It doesn't matter how few people you teach. Exposure will happen. That's my point.

You're Romanticizing this notion of a magical fraternity in which only the elite can rub elbows and we can undo all the problems with magic by doing this. Ain't gonna happen.

Though you claim otherwise, the root of your complaint seems to once again be exposure. But there was exposure a hundred years ago too. Read "Hiding the Elephant" sometime.

 

[Simon]

insightful stuff steerpike,

although i can't say i'm surprised

 

[Sludgemetal]

I honestly don't think this exposure stuff effects real magicians all that much if at all.

I've always been a casual fan of magic and fooled around with it bit when I was a kid. (svengali, stripper decks) I've only withing the past month or so learned a few sleights and the technique behind a bunch of tricks.

Just because I know how some of the tricks I see are done doesn't mean I'm not completely amazed be someone who's truly great or even just good at performing with cards.

I've got a million other thoughts on the subject but my post is already long enough.

By the way, this is my first post. How's it goin'?