Why Books?

[JamesAV305]

Hey guys, I always hear from people (most recently in the "My View Hate it or Love it" thread) that books are the way to go. That if you dont learn from books you are really limiting yourself as a magician. So my question is what is it about books that is so great?

praetoritevongor said "by refusing to study older magic, especially books... Well, I'm happy to declare them mediocre".

No i love older magic, i love to talk with the older magicians about tricks from Vernon and Paul Harris and discuss the history of tricks. So i can certainly understand saying that you are limiting yourself by not studying older magic. But why do people think that only through books can you become great?

I really havent read any magic books, i find them hard to learn from and prefer to see the tricks being performed while im learning. With that said, dont think that i only buy the latest hyped product and thats all i learn from. I love "Green Magic" by Lennart Green, lately I have been watching the "Vernon Revelation" tapes (which are extremley intersting) as well as others including Bill Malone's "On the Loose".

so back to my question, how am i limiting myself to being "mediocre" by only watching DVDs? I know that books (for the most part) have more material in them, but aside from that, whats the difference?

Thanks for any answers guys. Take care.

 

[thanatos]

I think what praetoritevongor is trying to say is if u only watch dvds your limiting yourself from some amazing stuff in books and i mean ALOT of amazing material out there. First time i read expert at the card table i was grinning cause of erdnase's genius compared to stuff i had at the present time. Your restricting yourself from seeing the whole picture . Although i might disagree with him, i think what limits a person being great and keeping him mediocre isnt dvds vs books but the mentality he has when learning from them and the drive for excellence and perfection whether learning from books or dvds although completely rejecting 'old' magic is in my opinion retarded.

 

[praetoritevong]

Alright well first let me quickly say that my statement above has been taken out of context. By mediocre, I refer, as thanatos argues, to one's mindset rather than books specifically.

Furthermore, I think you're focussing on the wrong point here. The effects are relatively unimportant. Obviously, it is a factor that you find it more difficult to learn from a book; this I understand. It is not about the amount of tricks per se in a book. It's not really about the effects at all.

That said. Why books?

Books contain lessons research and thoughts unparalleled in DVDs. When you consider that magic has existed far longer than the internet, it hence stands to reason that the majority of the development of the thoughts principles and lessons on which all magic today is based, lies in books.

"Great" is highly subjective. You could become "great" without reading a book. At least, by some definitions of the word. Yet the amount of information we can receive, the amount of lessons we can learn from books, are things not found in DVDs. I mean, let's face it: there's Orbitbrown great. And then, there's Dai Vernon great.

Consider this. "It's the perfect beginner's magic book no beginner would understand." This was said to me recently; however, even taking the quote out of context, applying it to books make sense. Books provide valuable information through years of study by the oldest and most recognised magicians who have ever lived (and for good reason) - many of whom who never lived to see the internet. Hence, the work of the greatest lies in books. The lessons that made them great, the effects, the principles, and the theory, all in books. You won't find that in a DVD.

Don't forget that magic is an art which has developed over many many years, and a performing art at that.

So, in a nutshell. Why books, what's the difference?

Lessons you won't find in DVDs or anywhere else. More lessons, deeper lessons, lessons from the greatest of the greatest, and the results of thousands of years of development before the DVD was ever invented, and these shall always remain buried in books.

 

[thanatos]

i just got enlightened by your post praetoritevong i think i misunderstood u, and praetoritevong great post. lol maybe i should not use that word

 

[CardGuy90]

Alright well first let me quickly say that my statement above has been taken out of context. By mediocre, I refer, as thanatos argues, to one's mindset rather than books specifically.

Furthermore, I think you're focussing on the wrong point here. The effects are relatively unimportant. Obviously, it is a factor that you find it more difficult to learn from a book; this I understand. It is not about the amount of tricks per se in a book. It's not really about the effects at all.

That said. Why books?

Books contain lessons research and thoughts unparalleled in DVDs. When you consider that magic has existed far longer than the internet, it hence stands to reason that the majority of the development of the thoughts principles and lessons on which all magic today is based, lies in books.

"Great" is highly subjective. You could become "great" without reading a book. At least, by some definitions of the word. Yet the amount of information we can receive, the amount of lessons we can learn from books, are things not found in DVDs. I mean, let's face it: there's Orbitbrown great. And then, there's Dai Vernon great.

Consider this. "It's the perfect beginner's magic book no beginner would understand." This was said to me recently; however, even taking the quote out of context, applying it to books make sense. Books provide valuable information through years of study by the oldest and most recognised magicians who have ever lived (and for good reason) - many of whom who never lived to see the internet. Hence, the work of the greatest lies in books. The lessons that made them great, the effects, the principles, and the theory, all in books. You won't find that in a DVD.

Don't forget that magic is an art which has developed over many many years, and a performing art at that.

So, in a nutshell. Why books, what's the difference?

Lessons you won't find in DVDs or anywhere else. More lessons, deeper lessons, lessons from the greatest of the greatest, and the results of thousands of years of development before the DVD was ever invented, and these shall always remain buried in books.

Definately
Not only that but its kind of like this, the greats have all read these books and studied them, so how can you expect to surpass them by only hearing or discussing about them. I dont know if that came out perfect the way i said it.
Dvds rock, there WAY easier to learn but with a book you can do these things more easily i noticed....

1. Make it more original, a dvd you see the final effect and usually (not always) people end up doing it very very very similar to how the performer in the dvd does it. Thats only natural because you are learning from them. However from a book, you get the steps, its your job now to go out there figure out the patter and whats going to get the job done and by doing that you will make it original.

2. Common ground, lets take Wayne Houchiwoochii, Bucks, Madison, and... Danny G... All 4 of these guys styles are greatly different, yet when you strip them all down the one thing they all have in common is that i bet you 100% they all have read astonishments, expert card table, etc.

3. Theres a reason why every magician (good one/famous ones) have read these books, they know its important, even if you dont get much to get everything you can from magic. I just picked up a book called "Magic & Showmanship" and i gotta say i will be using NONE... NONE of these effects in the book. But its helping me because it is showing me how magicians were WAY back in the day, how patter was...everything. Im taking this and while im not using anything in the book for my shows, im seeing and understanding why none of this would work in todays society and im using that knowledge to better create my patter and my illusions for my shows.

All in all, you dont have to read books, but in my personal opinion i think that to be serious about something, you must learn EVERYTHING there is on the topic, even if some dont help you.
A magician, i forgot who it was, i think it was John Ramsey once wrote "Go see every magician you can perform. If hes good you will be inspired. If he sucks you will know that your on your way to greatness because your better then them. If you dont see any, how will you really know where you stand."

 

[2ndDeal]

Why books?

Because material of Juan Tamariz is in books.
Because material of Paul Harris is in books.
Because material of Dai Vernon is in books.
Because material about theory of magic is in books.


Who cares if it takes ten minutes longer to understand the handling from a book? You'll practise it for days, ten minutes won't count.

 

[CardGuy90]

Why books?

Because material of Juan Tamariz is in books.
Because material of Paul Harris is in books.
Because material of Dai Vernon is in books.
Because material about theory of magic is in books.


Who cares if it takes ten minutes longer to understand the handling from a book? You'll practise it for days, ten minutes won't count.

I love the way you put it lol, but your right

 

[GusEds]

Alright well first let me quickly say that my statement above has been taken out of context. By mediocre, I refer, as thanatos argues, to one's mindset rather than books specifically.

Furthermore, I think you're focussing on the wrong point here. The effects are relatively unimportant. Obviously, it is a factor that you find it more difficult to learn from a book; this I understand. It is not about the amount of tricks per se in a book. It's not really about the effects at all.

That said. Why books?

Books contain lessons research and thoughts unparalleled in DVDs. When you consider that magic has existed far longer than the internet, it hence stands to reason that the majority of the development of the thoughts principles and lessons on which all magic today is based, lies in books.

"Great" is highly subjective. You could become "great" without reading a book. At least, by some definitions of the word. Yet the amount of information we can receive, the amount of lessons we can learn from books, are things not found in DVDs. I mean, let's face it: there's Orbitbrown great. And then, there's Dai Vernon great.

Consider this. "It's the perfect beginner's magic book no beginner would understand." This was said to me recently; however, even taking the quote out of context, applying it to books make sense. Books provide valuable information through years of study by the oldest and most recognised magicians who have ever lived (and for good reason) - many of whom who never lived to see the internet. Hence, the work of the greatest lies in books. The lessons that made them great, the effects, the principles, and the theory, all in books. You won't find that in a DVD.

Don't forget that magic is an art which has developed over many many years, and a performing art at that.

So, in a nutshell. Why books, what's the difference?

Lessons you won't find in DVDs or anywhere else. More lessons, deeper lessons, lessons from the greatest of the greatest, and the results of thousands of years of development before the DVD was ever invented, and these shall always remain buried in books.

The Big P comin' down at you with the inteli-geance!



GW

 

[JamesAV305]

Alright well first let me quickly say that my statement above has been taken out of context. By mediocre, I refer, as thanatos argues, to one's mindset rather than books specifically.

Furthermore, I think you're focussing on the wrong point here. The effects are relatively unimportant. Obviously, it is a factor that you find it more difficult to learn from a book; this I understand. It is not about the amount of tricks per se in a book. It's not really about the effects at all.

That said. Why books?

Books contain lessons research and thoughts unparalleled in DVDs. When you consider that magic has existed far longer than the internet, it hence stands to reason that the majority of the development of the thoughts principles and lessons on which all magic today is based, lies in books.

"Great" is highly subjective. You could become "great" without reading a book. At least, by some definitions of the word. Yet the amount of information we can receive, the amount of lessons we can learn from books, are things not found in DVDs. I mean, let's face it: there's Orbitbrown great. And then, there's Dai Vernon great.

Consider this. "It's the perfect beginner's magic book no beginner would understand." This was said to me recently; however, even taking the quote out of context, applying it to books make sense. Books provide valuable information through years of study by the oldest and most recognised magicians who have ever lived (and for good reason) - many of whom who never lived to see the internet. Hence, the work of the greatest lies in books. The lessons that made them great, the effects, the principles, and the theory, all in books. You won't find that in a DVD.

Don't forget that magic is an art which has developed over many many years, and a performing art at that.

So, in a nutshell. Why books, what's the difference?

Lessons you won't find in DVDs or anywhere else. More lessons, deeper lessons, lessons from the greatest of the greatest, and the results of thousands of years of development before the DVD was ever invented, and these shall always remain buried in books.

Excellent post, thank you for your response. Im sorry if you feel that that i took your post out of context, but i thought that it was fairly represented, as thats what i got from the post while in context (if that makes sense). I didnt mean to take it out of context though.

Im glad that we were able to get some meaningful posts out of this forum for once. I myself have several reasons why people should read books, but i wanted to start some conversation about it, and i thought that if i started off by agreeing and preaching, it would spark less interesting conversation.

The thing that i didnt agree with was that you cant excel past mediocrity with out books. I think it comes down to more your selection of DVDs, as i tried to illustrate with my list of things like the Vernon revelations tapes.

My personal thoughts on the matter are this. Books contain a LOT more material for about the same price, sometimes lower. The main reason i enjoy books, (or notes) is because it weeds out all of the youtube kids and T11/E fanboys that are going to post all over the internet. This is one (of the many) reasons i enjoy Jordan Lapping's videos so much. Books are essential to establishing your own style and standing out from the crowd.

Dont get me wrong, i love Dan and Dave's Material, I perform the queens all the time and have even posted it on youtube, but i try to branch out from that when i can, in order to make myself the best magician i can be.

Its important to remember that all of these DVDs contain the original works of these artists, not necessarily their favorite tricks. Just their favorite tricks that they have come up with. So if you limit yourself to the DVDs of these people, you are limiting yourself from all of the tricks these artists perform that are even better than their original material. I hope that that makes sense.

Basically its like this. A persons DVD is like the last chapter of a novel. You are seeing the final product. And while you may get all the information about how it ends, you are still missing all of the pieces that brought them to that ending. Now if you are discussing the book or trying to analyze it, you can only talk about the last chapter, anything before that you are lost. Because of that you cant really build your own perspective of what the book was saying, or in this case make tricks your own or develop your own material/style.

so thanks guys for the input, i hope it keeps coming.

 

[JamesAV305]

Why books?

Because material of Juan Tamariz is in books.
Because material of Paul Harris is in books.
Because material of Dai Vernon is in books.
Because material about theory of magic is in books.


Who cares if it takes ten minutes longer to understand the handling from a book? You'll practise it for days, ten minutes won't count.

lol Juan Tamariz is AWESOME.

I havent gotten a chance to check out much Paul Harris, other than his classic things like Bizzare Twist and a couple others, but i plan to get them.

I love Vernon's material as well. Ive been watching the vernon revelation tapes lately, and if you like vernons material but you havent seen the tapes you should get them. Not because the material is taught well (id rather have it in print myself) but because you get to hear a lot of stuff about how the moves were developed, and the history of a lot of moves. really interesting. Plus you get to hear him yell at Steve Freeman for not doing his moves correctly. lol

Im currently reading Paul Daniels "How to Make Money in Magic" and i really like it. Its well written and very insightful. I would recommend it to anyone that finds that title appealing.

 

[JamesHarken]

...

Every trick on dvd almost, has a similar routine, presentation, or method that has once been published in a book.

Books are such an amazing arsenal of new ideas and effects.


I had to force myself to read through them at first, but I'm glad I did it.

 

[Morgan B]

Yeah 2nd deal - I think you hit it on the head - so much GREAT work will never see DVD.

You appreciate what you read more - and having to think of magic technique from words to actions - really offers something that mimicking what you see doesn't - not saying video doesn't have it's place.

All forms of learning make you better - but I will tell you what....what are you going to do when DVD format is gone...and you can't transfer your new stuff...your DVD gets scratched. My books - as long as my house doesn't burn down (knock on wood...yep the flammable stuff) my books will outlast me.

 

[RikAllen]

Agreeing with the plethora of information already stated and moving with two cents worth of input-a quick story if you will.

I have been learning from books from the moment I decided to take magic seriously. Through the first few books I'd read I was performing effects as I saw them working as I read them off the page. After seeing a performance of one of the effects (specifically one of the sleights) I realized that either I had learned it wrong, or the person in the video had learned it wrong. It was definitely the same move(I asked if any changes had been made), only my handling was different.

I later learned that I was doing a variation that had been thought up by another magician. Since then I've come to the conclusion that about half of the material I learned early was learned well, but in some way or another was 'not correct'. I was never called out by spectators, so my handling worked, but it was fundamentally different.

When I later learned from dvd's I found some sleights harder to master than others. But was easily able to adjust them so that it didn't take away from the effect but made it easier to perform, based on what I already knew.

Had I not learned multiple variations from books, as I tend to try and do now when I'm reading, I would not be able to adapt sleights I see on DVD's today. I also wouldn't have learned as much about looking for angles and such as DVD's show you exactly what to look out for, and a lot of books give very little information about all the angles you need covered.

Hope that makes sense...as I have to run,

-Rik

 

[filth0013]

Books are cheaper yet have more material.

 

[2ndDeal]

The thing that i didnt agree with was that you cant excel past mediocrity with out books. I think it comes down to more your selection of DVDs, as i tried to illustrate with my list of things like the Vernon revelations tapes.

Yes, there are things like Vernon Reveletions and Juan Tamariz has a couple of lectures filmed. But, practilally all of their material is in books.

Even though there is great material in some DVDs, thats so little compared to books. Name me a DVD about showmanship, or one about theory of magic, or one were master who has performed for decades discusses dozens of variations of dozens of effects.

My personal thoughts on the matter are this. Books contain a LOT more material for about the same price, sometimes lower. The main reason i enjoy books, (or notes) is because it weeds out all of the youtube kids and T11/E fanboys that are going to post all over the internet. This is one (of the many) reasons i enjoy Jordan Lapping's videos so much. Books are essential to establishing your own style and standing out from the crowd.

I think people overestimate the problem of youtube kids. Does it really matter if someone reveals a crappy version of a trick? If you perform it well, nobody recognises it as the same effect. Besides, who bothers to watch revelation videos from youtube?

Its important to remember that all of these DVDs contain the original works of these artists, not necessarily their favorite tricks. Just their favorite tricks that they have come up with. So if you limit yourself to the DVDs of these people, you are limiting yourself from all of the tricks these artists perform that are even better than their original material. I hope that that makes sense.

That's true. I would like to add that many of DVDs are produced by people who live by selling DVDs. So, they're not trying to make good tricks, but tricks that look good to beginning magicians.

Basically its like this. A persons DVD is like the last chapter of a novel. You are seeing the final product. And while you may get all the information about how it ends, you are still missing all of the pieces that brought them to that ending. Now if you are discussing the book or trying to analyze it, you can only talk about the last chapter, anything before that you are lost. Because of that you cant really build your own perspective of what the book was saying,

Interesting point. I wouldn't personally consider any effect as the "final" version, but yes, I get your point.

 

[praetoritevong]

Excellent post, thank you for your response. Im sorry if you feel that that i took your post out of context, but i thought that it was fairly represented, as thats what i got from the post while in context (if that makes sense). I didnt mean to take it out of context though.

Yeah, that's fair enough, makes sense.

Im glad that we were able to get some meaningful posts out of this forum for once. I myself have several reasons why people should read books, but i wanted to start some conversation about it, and i thought that if i started off by agreeing and preaching, it would spark less interesting conversation.

The thing that i didnt agree with was that you cant excel past mediocrity with out books. I think it comes down to more your selection of DVDs, as i tried to illustrate with my list of things like the Vernon revelations tapes.

Hmm. Let me rephrase what I wrote that - I believe the part you're talking about is where I write about the varying definitions of "Great".

I believe that you can become a "great" magician in many aspects without the use of books. You can acquire secure sleight of hand, decent knowledge, even some performance experience through DVDs. In this sense, yes, you can become "great".

Consider though, who would you call a "great magician"? This is what I was alluding to when I talked about different types of greatness. Greatness to me brings images of Dai Vernon for example.

Now, consider, what makes Dai Vernon great? In fact, what makes any of them great? Lennart Green? Frank Garcia? Ted Annemann? What makes or made them great? See, these guys, they're on a different level to ordinary "Great" magicians. You see them, and you just know, you get that feeling, damn, they're GREAT.

What makes them great, is it simply secure sleight of hand, decent knowledge and some performance experience?

By a certain definition, this can make someone "great" from DVDs.

But, it does not compare to someone who is truly "great".

Hence, in a sense, I believe that you can be great without books. But look at all of the greatest magicians, without exception, every single one, the masters of magic. You cannot be truly great like they are, or come remotely close, without books, and in that sense of the word great, I do not believe you can achieve that without books.

My personal thoughts on the matter are this. Books contain a LOT more material for about the same price, sometimes lower. The main reason i enjoy books, (or notes) is because it weeds out all of the youtube kids and T11/E fanboys that are going to post all over the internet. This is one (of the many) reasons i enjoy Jordan Lapping's videos so much. Books are essential to establishing your own style and standing out from the crowd.

Dont get me wrong, i love Dan and Dave's Material, I perform the queens all the time and have even posted it on youtube, but i try to branch out from that when i can, in order to make myself the best magician i can be.

Very true.

Its important to remember that all of these DVDs contain the original works of these artists, not necessarily their favorite tricks. Just their favorite tricks that they have come up with. So if you limit yourself to the DVDs of these people, you are limiting yourself from all of the tricks these artists perform that are even better than their original material. I hope that that makes sense.

Basically its like this. A persons DVD is like the last chapter of a novel. You are seeing the final product. And while you may get all the information about how it ends, you are still missing all of the pieces that brought them to that ending. Now if you are discussing the book or trying to analyze it, you can only talk about the last chapter, anything before that you are lost. Because of that you cant really build your own perspective of what the book was saying, or in this case make tricks your own or develop your own material/style.

so thanks guys for the input, i hope it keeps coming.

Yeah, I agree with that. I guess the only thing I wanted to talk about was the part above regarding measures of greatness.

 

[copperfield 14]

Pay 30 dollars to learn one trick. Pay the same price for By forces unseen. Books have better material and for a better price.

 

[Sir FansAlot]

I start to shy away from the types of threads that respond to every comment made. Just let everyone decide for themselves. Books? great. DVD great. Find value in what you find more rewarding because in the end it's all up to you.

 

[The Tumbleweed]

It's spelt praetoritevong!!!!!

 

[Medifro]

Why books?

Because material of Juan Tamariz is in books.
Because material of Paul Harris is in books.
Because material of Dai Vernon is in books.
Because material about theory of magic is in books.

There are many material only available as DVDs and not as books. E.g. Michael Paul, Akira's Fuji's material ( the ones available in global market at least ), Benjiman Earl ( at least no book I know of! ). Lecture videos of people who didn't do books yet, and their lecture notes is just too bothersome to look for ( Jon Armostrong, Walt Lees .. etc ).

Cheers,