Will Tsai Matrix on AGT?

[Al e Cat Dabra]

I don't believe anyone ever said you were "bashing" him. If you read my post, I merely pointed out, in general terms, that "as magicians WE can always find one or more aspects of a performer and/or the performance to criticize..." and you've proven that to be true by repeating your criticism and insisting that it was valid.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

You're mixing up the terms "critique" and "criticize". You are saying I'm criticizing, which is synonymous with bashing in your context, and I am not. I am in fact complimenting it.

I am critiquing his performance from my personal perspective. I think he did a beautiful piece and I think his performances have a lot of potential, and that he will do better in the show if he adds some of himself into the presentations. With that little bit of personal insight to himself, added to his already excellent visuals, he will be a force to be reckoned with.

You are choosing to focus on the idea that I'm being overtly negative and I am honestly not sure why. It's not a bad thing to give constructive critiques to a performer, or for other people who are watching the performance. Considering how many people are going to look up to anyone who's on TV, it's good to remind them about the fundamentals of improving a performance (which should be something we all strive for, constantly)

As a side note - I have actually helped someone get through two rounds of a similar show to this in Europe with my advice. Have you?

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

You keep putting words into my mouth. I never said that anything you or anyone else has said or done is a "bad thing." As far as your "side note" that you "have actually helped someone get through two rounds of a similar show to this in Europe with my advice," and your challenge, "Have you?" I don't see the relevance of that to this discussion. I guess that I should be impressed, and maybe I am not as qualified as you to post my opinions since, no, I haven't done that. I can only offer my perspective as a professional magician for 40 + years.

 

[Antonio Diavolo]

Yes he did open with the comment on the flowers, and even pulled some petals off and showed them. Then did a routine with no obvious connection to the flower until the very end, which made no sense story-wise. "I like flowers, here's some coins that move around, the coins are petals".

As I said, the routine is visually beautiful and I am not bashing his work. I'm familiar with Will's stuff in other instances and have even considered purchasing some, but decided against it due to the gimmick/gaff-heavy nature of it.

If you review my post you'll see I'm not bashing him. He did well and it was well received, and I think he's got a lot of potential in this contest. If he puts more of himself into the performance he'll couple the emotional hook along with the visual hook he's already nailed, and people will like him even more.

The only criticism I gave was that being purely visual only gets you so far, because it lacks the emotional hook that really gets people invested in the performance.

I had a similar thought about it. It seemed like he was trying to set up some sort of message about the flower and stuff but most of the trick wasn't related. Like a lot of people have said, the trick is visually impressive but not too much else. My problem with the trick is that it's so visual that the only 2 conclusions audiences and magicians will come to is that the table is gimmicked, or Will is an actual wizard. And most people know his performance isn't actual magic. So instead of focusing on how great Will was as a magician, they're simply focused on figuring out how he did it.

I'm not sure how to put it. Even though this is my opinion on the trick, many other magicians have similar thoughts and have worded it a lot more coherently than I ever could.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

If you watch the video, it is quite obvious that EVERYONE (judges included) was focused on how great Will was as a magician. I think if most magicians were as critical of their own performances as they are of Will's and/or the performances of other magicians, we would have lot more great magicians and far fewer critics...

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

As magicians, we can always find one or more aspects of a performer and/or the performance to criticize, but the laymen (including the judges) were in awe watching what looked like real magic.

I'm not criticizing, I'm critiquing. You're the one who's focused on the idea that we're being critical of him. We're all saying it looked great and the audience liked it, and here's what he may want to include in the future.

What Will is doing right now is more or less purely visual. This gets the performer into what my old circus partner called "spectacle creep". Like when someone juggles 3 balls. The first thing you hear is, "Can you do 4?" then "Can you do 5?" "Can you do it behind your back?" etc.

When humans see something beautiful or impressive, they quickly assimilate that into their world view. That then becomes normalized. It's then slightly harder to impress them. So what Will is now looking at is he either has to go bigger and bigger on the visual range to stay in the game, or he has to expand what his performance is offering. I want to see him continue (because I am always happy when I see magic represented well in media) so I hope he understands this and adds some personal depth to his performances. If he levels out he'll probably not stay on the show very long. This is ignoring the fact that the producers will often have a few people on the show at the beginning that they have no intention of letting get anywhere near finals, just to have variety in the early rounds and people they know they can dismiss without trouble.

I am not criticizing, I am critiquing and adding advice. This is what I'm perceiving. There's a long standing joke in the magic world that magicians operate under a sort of unwritten code of, "I won't tell you that you suck as long as you don't tell me I suck." Well, that's not how people get better. Critiques are nothing to be scared of, they are how one finds the weaknesses in an act and improves it.

Personally, no one is more critical of my performances than I am. Every time I do a show I have people who watch and tell me what they perceived, and I also take my own notes, and I figure out what didn't achieve my goals and what did.

I've said my piece in multiple ways and I'm done now. I have no interest in circling with you over this.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

According to the Merriam Webster Dictionary, one of the definitions of "criticism" is as follows: "Critique."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticism

Further, if you look up the word "Critique" in the Online Etymological Dictionary, it is a restored spelling of the original French word "Critick," which means the "art of criticism."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=critique

So you can claim that you are not criticizing, merely critiquing, but your distinction is semantical, not logical.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

PS If you look up the definition of "critique," it is defined as: "an act of criticizing."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/critique
Guess I rest my case.

 

[Josh Burch]

According to the Merriam Webster Dictionary, one of the definitions of "criticism" is as follows: "Critique."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticism

Further, if you look up the word "Critique" in the Online Etymological Dictionary, it is a restored spelling of the original French word "Critick," which means the "art of criticism."
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=critique

So you can claim that you are not criticizing, merely critiquing, but your distinction is semantical, not logical.

Christopher has made it clear what definitions he is using in his analysis. Introducing other definitions of the word does not change Christopher's definition or use of the word. In fact, these new definitions only help to obscure the meaning that Christopher was conveying.

If I have a map and before I show it to someone I say, "In this case the top of the map is South. I need to say that because most people will assume that it is North. For what I am explaining though I believe it makes more sense to place South on the top of the map."

When the person then says, "That doesn't make sense! North is always at the top of the map. I'm going to read this map as if North is at the top!" This person will always misinterpret the meaning of the map.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

Yes Josh, I know you are a "moderator," and therefore have power, even to ban me from this Forum if you choose. That does not change the fact that I have the freedom to disagree with anyone in any manner I choose, so long as it has not become an ad hominem attack, which I have not made it. My arguments are based on reason and logic - and freedom of speech - which I was assuming was a bedrock principle of this Forum, but perhaps I was mistaken. I do not feel it is appropriate for you to take sides. He is the one who directly challenged me in a quasi-superior manner and attitude, and put words in my mouth, if you look back over the thread fairly and impartially. And, when one starts using terms, but can simply make up their own meaning, then any kind of meaningful discussion becomes a moving target. I did not "introduce other definitions of the word" - I introduced THEE definition of the word, and I will defer to Webster for my definitions...

 

[Maaz Hasan]

If you watch the video, it is quite obvious that EVERYONE (judges included) was focused on how great Will was as a magician. I think if most magicians were as critical of their own performances as they are of Will's and/or the performances of other magicians, we would have lot more great magicians and far fewer critics...

I personally disagree. I think the audience was more focused on how great the magic was, not the magician himself. His performance was absolutely brilliant. He could have linked his performance better though.


Also, I think it is not entirely right for you to say that most magicians are more critical of other people than they are of themselves. I have seen magicians ridicule themselves harder than anyone else. I think as magicians, we work non stop to perfect out effects because they weren't 110% perfect for them yet, where as if we see an effect performed, we love it.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

Maaz,

I welcome your disagreement, but I - well - disagree with it. Saying that the audience was focused on how great the magic was, and not the magician himself, is a bit like saying the spectators at a baseball game who just witnessed a towering home run with bases loaded to win the game, and who then go wild, were merely focused on the greatness of the home run, but not the greatness of the hitter. Trust me when I say, it will not be the home run that gets interviewed by all the media outlets or that receives the Most Valuable Player award. In fact, the title of this very thread begins with the name "Will Tsai." From what I saw, those people in the audience were applauding Will and giving him credit for the thrilling magical performance he gave. A quick look at YouTube shows that this young man has gone viral. But then, as the saying goes, perception is reality, and you are certainly entitled to your own.

As for your comment that it is not "entirely right" for me "to say that most magicians are more critical of other people than they are of themselves,"are you suggesting that it was then partially right for me to say it? You say you have "seen magicians ridicule themselves harder than anyone else." I don't think anyone should ridicule themselves. That, in itself, would be ridiculous, and certainly counter-productive. I think being critical of oneself means being realistic, and working on something and performing it and "shaping the clay" until it is a thing of beauty. Ridiculing oneself has no place in the equation, at least in my view, because I believe magic should be fun and something that brings joy to oneself and others.

You have also stated: "I think as magicians, we work non stop to perfect out effects because they weren't 110% perfect..." I think you are generalizing based on your own approach. But if this is the standard you hold yourself to, I would imagine that it is one that has probably served you well, and would love to see you perform sometime.

So I can see that I have ruffled some feathers by my comments, and I really have meant nothing personal, but I am happy that I have stimulated some lively discussion... And by the way, at least one of the YouTube video clips of Will's performance on AGT got over 362,000 views, and all the clips had "Will Tsai" in the title. I am saying let's give credit to this wonderful magician where credit is due.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Al e Cat Dabra,
I see where you're coming from, but at the same time, I think you may have misinterpreted what I'm saying. I'm NOT saying Will did a bad job, or doesn't deserve credit in anyway. He deserves all the credit he has gotten, and then some. I'm simply saying that he focused too much on the effect and did not present his own personality enough, which may cause a problem if he now over-presents himself, or if he makes it to the finals, people may not fully enjoy his show, because they feel to distant from him.

Let me put it this way: As Magicians, we can come up with the greatest effect of all time, but if we do not form a story around it to try and connect with the audience, the audience really does not enjoy the magic. Seriously, if you ever have the time, go out onto the street - or your school, job, whatever - and do many performances to different people. Do some performances with story-lines and connect with the audience, and do others without story-lines, almost shunning the audience, and see how people react.

 

[Al e Cat Dabra]

Maaz,
Generally speaking, I agree with what you are saying. My own particular style is to present magic with entertaining and/or intriguing stories, and it appears that yours might be as well, which I can certainly relate to, as can the audience. And I do use a lot of comedy and gags, not only because it is entertaining and I love to hear people laugh, but it provides wonderful misdirection. In the final analysis, when we are seeking to entertain, fascinate and/or move people, then, as Vernon said, we must have an "emotional hook." But not everyone is a story-teller, or able to deliver funny lines, or is even necessarily a good speaker. (Witness the many silent performers in magical history).

Aside from the fact that Will has a pleasing and humble way about him, I think that there are times when the magic is so strong, that the astonishing effect IS the story, and I believe this particular performance fits into that category. I believe that people appreciated Will because (regardless of method) he produced something truly magical, and made them believe, even if only for an instant, that maybe there really is such a thing as magic. That being said, he is young, and English might not even be his first language, so sure, perhaps he will develop his persona with the passage of time and blossom into a totally different performer. However, I know that you (and others on here) really did appreciate his performance, and your comments have been, by and large, constructive.

 

[themagicgeek]

Magnetic methods and table flipping seems to be an entirely new concept. Still not sure about the exact control of flips.

 

[ichwoo]

Now I want to start by saying I'm not asking how it is done because
1. It's against the forum rules and I respect that
2. I don't think I want to know how it's done

I was just wondering what everyone thought of it.
I was also wondering if this trick is actually possible and if someone here knows how the trick is done because I'm pretty sure Will is actually a wizard at this point.

I also wanted to ask those who do know, if this trick could work in a closeup setting. Because I sorta feel that this trick was perfectly designed to be performed in the AGT setting if that makes any sense.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts because even though I know it's not performed the way a traditional Matrix routine would be, it's still a very impressive and creative trick.

This guy did the exact same trick. It looks the same as Will Tsai's performance.