Who here actually does xcm as a performance art?

[eostresh]

Cardistry will more than likely remain a form of magical masturbation

ROFL
Actually that's what a lot of magic is anyway. Craig Browning and I have been kind of having an interesting conversation on another thread. What came up was how many effects created 50, 60, 70 years ago will still totally fry lay audiences in their original form and yet a new "cleaner" more "amazing" version of those tricks gets marketed every other week. So in that sense, getting the latest greatest Haunted Pack or TnR is also not much more than magical masturbation. We don't create and buy those effects because the original versions don't still impress lay audiences, we do it because they impress us. One of my favorite card books(By Forces Unseen) is almost completely unapologetic about the fact that it was created for love of the sleight more so than the effect. I'm okay with that. I still practice that stuff every week and yet I have performed only two different effects on two different occasions from that book. I still love it though.

Anyways I digress a bit. I started looking up some of the top cardists and found that many of them, at least from the Handlordz camp ARE out there performing XCM live and for lay audiences. J.S. Lim has apparently become a minor celebrity in Taiwon based on his TV appearances. So it seems as if cardistry is starting to get out and show off a bit. Also....is it wrong to think that there isn't a certain amount of artistry to youtube? Certainly most of what is out there is kind of trash but many youtubers are becoming minor celebrities in their own right. And in addition to the artistic aspects of the cardistry itself their is also an art to the videography, editing, and lighting of some of these youtube videos.

Now check out some of these links
[video=youtube;OkIPDEKkhTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkIPDEKkhTc[/video]

[video=youtube;9pvHRr4mhg8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pvHRr4mhg8&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;zwqJK6dzwG4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwqJK6dzwG4[/video]

So even in the two non-live performances....I think there is no doubt that these two cardists are actually "performing" and not just doing a bunch of stunts. Thus if either of them labeled themselves as an "Artist" I would have no problem with that.

Food for thought.

 

[Josh Burch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkIPDEKkhTc

I want to see more performances like this!!!

 

[visualartist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkIPDEKkhTc

I want to see more performances like this!!!

Finally!!!!

 

[visualartist]

Also....is it wrong to think that there isn't a certain amount of artistry to youtube? Certainly most of what is out there is kind of trash but many youtubers are becoming minor celebrities in their own right. And in addition to the artistic aspects of the cardistry itself their is also an art to the videography, editing, and lighting of some of these youtube videos.

Spectacle and technique in film is not a substitute for substance.
Very few people can mix in both.
I prefer raw footage of someone performing cardistry than a pretty video with out-in focus effects and HD video.
I also keep reading alot of people point out "well the handlordz people are performing!". yeah ok, its old news we know they perform.
We are speaking about the community as a whole. the vast majority do not.
It's like someone is out recruiting for revolution for a better country and the people say "well there is already another group working on it!".

 

[eostresh]

Spectacle and technique in film is not a substitute for substance.
Very few people can mix in both.
I prefer raw footage of someone performing cardistry than a pretty video with out-in focus effects and HD video.
I also keep reading alot of people point out "well the handlordz people are performing!". yeah ok, its old news we know they perform.
We are speaking about the community as a whole. the vast majority do not.
It's like someone is out recruiting for revolution for a better country and the people say "well there is already another group working on it!".

Well to the broader audience, outside of magic, film and film editing, is considered an artform. At least members of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences would have you believe that. You can feel free to disagree and be justified in doing so. I don't think Modern Art is art and it even directly labels itself as art

So I think it has been established that
1. There are cardists performing out there to the laity. They are doing it in front of live audiences. Those performing live may be a minority but it is a significant development none the less.

2. They laity seems impressed with cardistry(though perhaps no more impressed than one would expect from watching a good juggler) but to date no one has seen an entire show assembled with a focus on cardistry. I personally doubt we will ever see a cardistry performance stretch past 5-10 minutes in length and still keep a lay audience entertained, but then I doubt there are many juggling acts or stage manipulation acts that could do the same. Heck even Channing Pollack's famous manipulation act was only about 10-15 minutes in length.

3. We have established that many people do consider film to be an art form and thus even some of the XCMers who have never performed live could be considered artists.

Now bear in mind, non of these facts give every socially awkward teen who juggles packets of cards the right to call himself an artist, visual artist, performance artist, card artist, or whatever label they want to ascribe to themselves. But I think it establishes that many within the community certainly have earned the right to call themselves artists. Artist is a uniquely individual title. It can't really be ascribed to a community or even taken away from a community.

 

[Steerpike]

Well to the broader audience, outside of magic, film and film editing, is considered an artform. At least members of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences would have you believe that. You can feel free to disagree and be justified in doing so. I don't think Modern Art is art and it even directly labels itself as art

I'm starting to see the fundamental disconnect in the argument.

3. We have established that many people do consider film to be an art form and thus even some of the XCMers who have never performed live could be considered artists.

The trouble I have with that logic is that it seems to reference people like Jackson Pollock, Andy Warhol, and Marcel DuChamp without actually communicating a comprehension of their reasoning and philosophical approach to their respective arts.

Yes, film is recognized as an artform. But many of the XCM videos I've seen online have more in common with the carnival novelties of the Lumier brothers rather than anything from Billy Wilder, Ernest Lehman, Thelma Schoonmaker, or Howard Hawke. And it's not like most of the guys making these videos are being deliberately experimental or unconventional like the works of, for example, David Lynch. More often, it's a tiny, self-contained vanity project done more for personal recognition for time spent practicing rather than the desire to actually say something. For me, that's where I draw the line between art and entertainment or distraction.

Granted, many people will disagree with me on that. Fine. The artistic community has yet to settle on a definition they can all agree on, why should mine be any different? Point is, it comes across as a bit lazy to simply say, "I filmed it so that should fulfill a qualification for being artistic." It just doesn't scan. It doesn't actually present a thoughtful approach to bringing manipulation acts to a wider audience or gaining it acceptance as a performance art. To be recognized as an art is an uphill battle that requires the practitioners to step up their game. Hell, I'm a huge advocate of games as art, and I still acknowledge that there's a long way to go until mainstream acceptance. I've played games that deal with deep and complex subjects like puberty (The Path), the relationship between science and ethics (The Dig), the oppression of workers in the industrial revolution (the Oddworld series), and the nature of free will (Mass Effect 2). People still roll their eyes at me when I say that games are art. It's a long road ahead. But there's effort being put into it instead of trying to change the standards so that we've already met them.

Andy Warhol got away with filming a haircut and calling it experimental cinema. That doesn't automatically mean that you're going to get a grant to make more videos of you fiddling with cards with your gym-shorts-clad junk as a background.

 

[eostresh]

[video=youtube;AX-D62vJ-6U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX-D62vJ-6U&feature=channel_video_title[/video]

[video=youtube;LyKYNnSD_Eg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyKYNnSD_Eg&feature=channel_video_title[/video]
I call this art....make up your own mind.

 

[ReservoirRed]

[video=youtube;zwqJK6dzwG4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwqJK6dzwG4[/video]

There's a big Irish head if ever I saw one! Distinctive cultural cardistry. Interesting. I must look him up.

 

[Steerpike]

I call this art....make up your own mind.

It seems I didn't make myself clear. You said that putting routines on video could count as performance art, but you made no move to qualify it further. All you did was give the webcam jockeys an excuse to continue sitting in their rooms fiddling with cards without learning anything about actual artistry. By your definition, they don't have to strive for artistry because you gave them a way to say already made it. The conclusion I came to is because you don't know how to qualify it. You know what you like, but you can't explain it. Consequently, your attempts to defend XCM come across as encouraging complacency.

Indeed, you're still doing it. You've put up two videos you like, but you can't explain to me what makes them art whereas some teenager's redundant TiVo variation shot on a webcam pointed directly at his package isn't.

 

[Jewish_Illusion]

Indeed, you're still doing it. You've put up two videos you like, but you can't explain to me what makes them art whereas some teenager's redundant TiVo variation shot on a webcam pointed directly at his package isn't.

what makes those videos art is that they are being performed for live audiences and the demonstrate true skill
no just anybody can do those kind of things
i dont know whether you are an actual card manipulator or are you just here to stir up trouble because you like to argue
this thread began as a simple question: Does anyone actualy perform xcm
opinions are voiced, and nobody wants to hear repeat the same things over and over again
i would respect your opinion if only you respected the point of this thread

 

[Steerpike]

what makes those videos art is that they are being performed for live audiences and the demonstrate true skill
no just anybody can do those kind of things

I'm going to leave my dispute with your answer aside and simply say that I specifically asked eostresh if he can articulate his point. Nice of you to volunteer an answer, but I'm asking him to explain himself.

i dont know whether you are an actual card manipulator or are you just here to stir up trouble because you like to argue

Are those the only two possibilities?

this thread began as a simple question: Does anyone actualy perform xcm
opinions are voiced, and nobody wants to hear repeat the same things over and over again
i would respect your opinion if only you respected the point of this thread

Did you start the thread? No? Well that's interesting. You see, I've actually talked with the threadstarter in the past. He started this discussion with the hope of getting some real critical talk going. The exact opposite of what you seem to want. So don't whine about respect to me.

 

[Jewish_Illusion]

, listen, i didnt start this arguement, just adding my two cents
i am not trying in anyway to criticize your opinion, please forgive me if that is how you feel
thanks

 

[visualartist]

Alot of what im reading is people saying "look these guys are doing it!" and so we're chalking it up to a job well done.
It goes back to what I said before, someone is starting or struggling to get a revolution going but no one is volunteering. Or think that these select few can carry that weight on their shoulders so the rest of the people don't have to work at it. They can simply take the title with them as well. That's not how this works.
Why are we struggling so hard to be complacent on this matter?
Cardistry is no where near on par with the fame of magic, and cardists, card artist, XCMer's,etc are content with that? where's your passion? your artistic expression? do you have any? Andrei jikh himself, the man every cardists on these forums praises and adores(I do) his cardistry, says he sees a huge lack of actual performance from the cardistry community calling themselves performances artists or card artist. Thats gotta mean something.

Also, on the note of film technique being art. The technique is USED to make art. But just because you use the technique does not make your film art. Every fancifully filmed cardistry video looks the same, you gotta agree. They are all MTV/music video style.
Lots of blur effects,playing with the auto focus,same shot style,locations are generally street alley or something else edgy. But this thread isn't about film as art so we can leave it at that.

 

[eostresh]

Alot of what im reading is people saying "look these guys are doing it!" and so we're chalking it up to a job well done.
It goes back to what I said before, someone is starting or struggling to get a revolution going but no one is volunteering. Or think that these select few can carry that weight on their shoulders so the rest of the people don't have to work at it. They can simply take the title with them as well. That's not how this works.

Yes people are doing it, yes some are doing it live, Yes some of these videos could be considered art, but I never said that most were, nor did anyone else who has posted with a positive attitude towards cardistry.

Why are we struggling so hard to be complacent on this matter?
Cardistry is no where near on par with the fame of magic, and cardists, card artist, XCMer's,etc are content with that? where's your passion? your artistic expression? do you have any?

I really don't think anyone has denies that at all. Many of us have just been a bit more positive about it. We believe the passion is there and your "revolution" has begun. But the key word is "Begun." The vast majority of XCMers are not "artists" (either live performance artists or video artists) but that can be said of most painters, most dancers, and most film makers. As to weather it will be as big as magic? Honestly do you think that is a realistic goal? Juggling and jugglers has been associated with magic for as long as magic, and juggling, has been performed for entertainment and art. That's a couple thousand years probably. And yet Juggling has never surpassed magic in overall popularity. Cardistry is often even called card juggling. I think there is some truth to that though I don't see it as a bad thing. So if juggling hasn't managed to knock magic off its pedistal in 2000 years what makes you think cardistry has a chance to even entertain that goal with a little over ten years of development?

Also, on the note of film technique being art. The technique is USED to make art. But just because you use the technique does not make your film art.

Did I ever say that? Pretty sure not. Film can be art.....but most film isn't. Go watch Ridley Scott's first film, "The Deulists." It is a piece of art. Now go watch Sean Bean's old TV shows about Sharpe. Both are set during the Napoleonic wars, both are entertaining, but the Sharpe series is not art. The Deulists was. A very small minority of films made every year could be considered art so it should come as no shock that a very small minority of cardistry videos would be artistic as well.

Perhaps it would help if you were to define your guidlines because at this point I am confused. You ask for cartists to go out and perform live for laymen. So people started finding clips of live performances. We have seen several TV slots posted, one live street performance, and some stage performances. We have also found some good videos that showed a cardist presenting cardistry in creative and unique ways. And yet non of this is good enough. It is like you keep changing the goalpost.

Honestly this is becoming a debate about those who are optimistic about cardistry, what it has accomplished already, and where it is headed, and those who are pessimistic about it. There was even a guy who posted a responce to one of my posts in which he said some of the exact same thing I said. He just ignored the fact that I had already said it and then framed it in a more negative light than I did. Honestly....how do you respond to that? "The sky is a bit cloudy but at least there is some blue on the horizon." "No! What you obviously fail to grasp is that the sky is cloudy and there is only a little blue off in the corner!" I mean please! Even you took my film comment way out of context.

So I do agree with just about everything you said....But I think that the things you say you want for cardistry (live performances, more focus on it as a performance art and less as a technical skill) have already begun. It may not be the majority of the community but everything you say you want for the community has already begun. But what you need to grasp is that most people in any pursuit (painting, music, dance, cards) will never attain mastery of that pursuit and until you attain mastery it will difficult to attain artistry. And because of that there just aren't a lot of true artists in the world regardless of the medium they choose.

 

[Steerpike]

You ask for cartists to go out and perform live for laymen. So people started finding clips of live performances.

Exactly. They point to other people doing it, but they don't have the balls to do it themselves. Are they too lazy? Are they too entitled to do the work? What?

Honestly this is becoming a debate about those who are optimistic about cardistry, what it has accomplished already, and where it is headed, and those who are pessimistic about it. There was even a guy who posted a responce to one of my posts in which he said some of the exact same thing I said. He just ignored the fact that I had already said it and then framed it in a more negative light than I did.

Yes, talk about me as if I'm not even in this conversation anymore. Very classy. Did you type that with your pinkie extended as well?

I don't think you're being optimistic. I think you're a naive Polyanna. And if you are classifying me as a pessimist, you don't know what pessimism is. I want card manipulation to become more accepted and come up for air in the public consciousness. I want it to succeed. That is why I'm being hard on you. Someone needs to give you a good smack and tell you to stop tooling around in your bedroom and get yourself in front of a live audience. So far all you've preached is complacency. You're just assuming that everything will work out for the best and no one here should have to contribute to bettering the art because hey! There are already some dudes out there who will do it for you. You're so afraid of hurting other people's feelings that you fail to actually do anything to motivate them to something better.

 

[Mike.Hankins]

Hey guys!!

I am not so sure my post actually "belongs" here, because I just cannot manipulate the cards the same way as most of you do. But I feel that enough sub topics have been thrown around enough on here for me to at least voice my opinion, for whatever that is worth. I will start with Cardistry:

When it comes to card magic, (and this may apply to all forms of magic), I strongly feel that there are two types of performance styles. Those who choose to openly display skill, and those that choose to make the audience think that it is "real magic" that is taking place. People like Lennart Green handles the cards in a way that makes the people he is performing for think that he is no better skilled at handling a deck of cards than they are. Then there are people like Eric Jones, who handles a pack of cards with a certain style of elegance and grace that makes the people he is performing for know that he has skills that cannot be met by any "layman". So how do my examples given relate to Cardistry? Well, I remember back to one of my first videos of magic, Easy To Master Card Miracles with the mighty Michael Ammar. In a few of his routines, he makes a comment like, "Ya know, when people see me do things like this...(he splits the deck equally and performs an S fan.),...they say boy would I hate to play cards with you!". I guess what I am trying to convey is that if you the magician are going to display visual skills with a deck of cards, I think it is important that you learn some Cardistry. Because we have the powers to manipulate cards without them seeing anything, so why wouldn't we be able to manipulate the cards right in front of their eyes? I think this plays with both performance styles I mentioned. Doing a 3-Fly routine, I see tons of magicians executing coin rolls. I think this is no different than a Sybil, or some other crazier-than-life-Andrei-Jikhy-like-move. Even executing the move Under Pressure displays skills than I would guess nobody in your audience could perform. I guess I am rambling, but I am trying to say that even though Cardistry/XCM/Whatever you want to call it, is separated from magic by a lot of people within this field, I feel that it is something that should be combined within our magic routines. Unless we are attempting to convey to the audience that we have no skill what-so-ever, and the magic is just well, I dunno...happening.

That ends Mindless Ramblings From Some Dude, Part. I...

Now, Let me move on to the part of the once again debated idea that Cardistry is not a performance art. First, let once again define the word "Art" as seen in your dictionary...

art/ärt/
Noun:

1. The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture,...: "the art of the Renaissance"
2. Works produced by such skill and imagination.

I guess what this defines could be limited only to the imagination. But if we were to attempt to place Cardistry into this equation, would it be that hard to do?

"...human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form..."

Cardistry is visual. Cardistry is creative and limited only to one's imagination. I think it fits. Dunno about you guys. But I will say that some even argue if art actually HAS a definition. I will throw in a little from an old art philosophy class I took...I will splice it here and there and attempt not to take away from the important points here.

Any definition of art has to square with the following uncontroversial facts: (i) entities (artifacts or performances) intentionally endowed by their makers with a significant degree of aesthetic interest, often surpassing that of most everyday objects, exist in virtually every known human culture; (ii) art, so understood, has a complicated history: new genres and art-forms develop, standards of taste evolve, understandings of aesthetic properties and aesthetic experience change. Evidently, some of these facts are culture-specific, and others are more universal.

So that might have went over a lot of the heads reading this, but check out the underlined text...

Now that was located within one of my old textbooks, but I tend to agree with this philosophy: "Art is in a constant state of change, so nobody can really pin down what it is." The constant change part is true. One might even say "Art is subjective, and means something different to every single person on earth." This, too, is the truth.

So is Cardistry art? Sure it is. Whoever doesn't think so, please give specific reasons that counter my combination of the definition of art and Cardistry. Now on to one last ramble...

I kept reading in this thread a combination of the words "Cardistry" and "Performing". And while I agree, there are not many people out there who do perform Cardistry, there are just as many who practice magic but never perform it either. And speaking of performing, someone mentioned performing and skill. When it comes to "performing", you can be as skilled as you want to be, but if you don't have the chops to entertain an audience, or capture the audiences attention, then you are nothing. I like to use Eugene Burger as an example. While Eugene and his performance style suits him only...I look at the level of skill his effects need, and they are really nothing all that complicated. He relies more on the way he interacts with his audiences. And having spent quite a bit of time with him, I can absolutely say that he runs circles around his audiences. Again, with little technique needed. I mean, does he have hand chops? Absolutely. And I really do feel that a great amount of work is needed to fine tune certain moves to make them look like they are intended to. But at the same time, I feel more emphasis needs to be put on the WAY we perform for people.

Well, I am done rambling now. I hope I got across what I was trying to. I guess I will be able to find out here soon.

 

[eostresh]

Well said Mike.

 

[visualartist]

Whether cardistry was art was never an issue, whether it was a PERFORMANCE art was my question.
Sure magic and cardistry can be combined, but cardistry always seems to take a backseat when magic is involved.
Yes, art changes and its meanings change throughout the course of history but there are huge factors that keep art constant in its meaning and execution. Art is and always has been an expression of the self. In order for it to be art it has to be individually truthful. Simply using techniques of an art form does not make one artistic or his craft art, if it were that simple than hey, im on par with picasso then. Cardistry is definitely something to perform, its simply up to the performer to do it artfully
Its a neat skill that can, and should be, presented to lay audiences by itself. Alot of people try to limit this presentation to the stage, step out of the box and be creative. There are many ways to present cardistry.
The WAY we perform is what matters, as mike said.
How on earth are people going to take cardistry seriously as an performance art if the majority of people that do it solely care about technique execution and fortify themselves to a webcam and a room?
Hobbyists of course,need not heed this. Only the people who are supposedly passionate about cardistry.

 

[Steerpike]

So is Cardistry art? Sure it is.

...

When it comes to "performing", you can be as skilled as you want to be, but if you don't have the chops to entertain an audience, or capture the audiences attention, then you are nothing.

Okay, how many out there are actually going to read both of these statements and how many will stop reading after the first to continue being smug, know-nothing webcam jockies? Anyone want to get a betting pool going?

How on earth are people going to take cardistry seriously as an performance art if the majority of people that do it solely care about technique execution and fortify themselves to a webcam and a room?
Hobbyists of course,need not heed this. Only the people who are supposedly passionate about cardistry.

The qusetion then becomes, "How many people here are hobbyists but don't want to admit it?"

I practice some of the basics of XCM to keep my hands flexible, but I don't actually perform it. I'm not the right kind of performer. My shows are getting progerssively more minimalist as time goes on and all props I use are strictly incidental. My style does not lend itself to manipulation. So it's pretty damn clear that this innovation isn't going to come from me. But I admit that and try to get people who can to get out there and do something about it themselves.

I'm starting to think that maybe the reason virtually no one here is willing to step up and walk their talk is because the ones who have that kind of cojones have aready left for greener pastures.

 

[Mike.Hankins]

So is Cardistry a performance art? Let us take a stab at what performance art is. Performance art is a performance presented to an audience, traditionally interdisciplinary. The performance may be either scripted or unscripted, random or carefully orchestrated; spontaneous or otherwise carefully planned with or without audience participation. The performance can be live or via media; the performer can be present or absent. It can be any situation that involves four basic elements: time, space, the performer's body, or presence in a medium, and a relationship between performer and audience. Performance art can happen anywhere, in any venue or setting and for any length of time. The actions of an individual or a group at a particular place and in a particular time constitute the work.

Sure I see a potential issue with a Cardistry performer having a relationship with his audience, but can it be done? Has it been done? Yes...

The last few times I have been to Las Vegas, I have seen Andrei Jikh perform on stage with Amazing Johnathan. The segment begins as pure comedy but then Johnathan invites Andrei on to the stage to perform a 4 minute routine that is scripted and presented to music. Very dramatic music is used to display some of his technique. When he does certain moves, (for example, his long ass anaconda like spring...lets call it move 341.) like 341, when his hands come back together, a powerful slap sound is made by Andrei. At the same time, the music provides us with a dramatic change, going along side Andrei's movement.

It was scripted, rehearsed, performed with music, and had meaning.

Can Cardistry be a performance art? Yes it very well can be.