no no, I wasn't talking about andrei and michael. Of course THEY perform. I was talking about the rest of the self proclaimed card artist here. Andrei observed my point as well in his opening sentence about the majority of cardists not performing.
Who here actually does xcm as a performance art?
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no no, I wasn't talking about andrei and michael. Of course THEY perform. I was talking about the rest of the self proclaimed card artist here. Andrei observed my point as well in his opening sentence about the majority of cardists not performing.
I think the main problem..is size... I have done some flourishes perfomances and I add a little bit of magic to them... but it only works in a close to stand up environment... also, something I noted is that most XCMers keep the performance in their hands and close yo the body... when it´s way better to use the whole body and move yourself in the stage... I did it and the performance becomes bigger I even went down the stage and around people... that way... everybody gets to see a piece up close...
Well since this site consists of a large portion of close-up magicians, or some like to say 'street' magicians, im sure there can be a form of performing cardistry up close or surrounded. There definitely has to be experimentation and creative thoughts thrown into the process.
Point stands. XCM would be seeing a lot more exposure if the move monkeys would just learn how to hold an audience. Right now, the number of performances for webcams versus live audiences is disturbingly lopsided and the manipulation community has no one to blame but themselves. Yes, most of those statements similarly apply to magic, but that doesn't make them less correct.
No your logic is a bit off. You are trying to say that they can't therefore they don't. That is quite a bit different from, they haven't tried therefore we don't really know. As a writer the first analogy that pops in my head are the many novelists who didn't write there first book until later in life(Tom Clancey, JK Rowling, Clive Cussler, to name a few.) Was 25 year old Tom Clancy incapable of writing an entertaining book? We don't really know because he never tried until later in life. Same thing holds here. Are these young cardists incapable of entertaining a live audience? For the most part, we don't know because the vast majority of them haven't tried. Look at this guy...
He does nothing but dress up like a statue. If you could see him live you would realize that he doesn't even act much like a statue. He never stands still for more than 30 seconds at a time. At least if the guy could stand still his performance art would demonstrate a modicum of skill. And yet he is out there doing "performance art." My point is that even the shyest of youtube flourishers have put more time and effort into their art than this guy, and thus they have more potential to entertain with their art than this guy. The only difference is that this guy is out there doing it. Doing it badly perhaps, but he is doing it. So the issue isn't whether they can entertain the laity (if poorly disciplined statue guys can do it certainly cardists can) The issue is whether there are any out there who have the courage to try.
My, aren't you optimistic.
The problem I see with your logic is that it assumes most of them are already fit to entertain an audience because they were successfully able to knock down a straw man. But the mechanics and the theatrics are two different skills. They do not necessarily develop as one. I'm not the greatest technical magician by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm a better performer and showman than any webcam jockey who can perform knucklebusters that I can only distantly aspire to.
So until they start performing, they're bad performers. Everyone starts out at day one, no exceptions. Even the greatest artists of history had to learn from actually doing. Even the most charismatic people had to develop the skill over time.
So yeah, my point stands. They don't perform, so they don't know how to be showmen yet. If they would get out there and perform and fall flat on their faces a few times, they'd learn. But most are content to continue sticking to the webcam so they'll never develop that skill. That's not the same thing as, "never knowing whether they could or not." It's a matter of, "They never did it, period."
The problem I see with your logic is that it assumes most of them are already fit to entertain an audience because they were successfully able to knock down a straw man. But the mechanics and the theatrics are two different skills. They do not necessarily develop as one. I'm not the greatest technical magician by any stretch of the imagination. But I'm a better performer and showman than any webcam jockey who can perform knucklebusters that I can only distantly aspire to.
So until they start performing, they're bad performers. Everyone starts out at day one, no exceptions. Even the greatest artists of history had to learn from actually doing. Even the most charismatic people had to develop the skill over time.
So yeah, my point stands. They don't perform, so they don't know how to be showmen yet. If they would get out there and perform and fall flat on their faces a few times, they'd learn. But most are content to continue sticking to the webcam so they'll never develop that skill. That's not the same thing as, "never knowing whether they could or not." It's a matter of, "They never did it, period."
So you circled around my argument only to come back to the same conclusion that I and 90% of everyone on this thread has already said. It's time for cardists to take their art out of the confines of their safe inner circle and perform in the real world. What's your motivation for contributing to this post? Win an arguement? Be a troll? Discourage cardists from performing to the laity? I'll be up front with my intentions. I think cardistry is a beautiful "performance art" that has to this point been mostly appreciated only within the magic community. Those whose focus is card magic and stage manipulation have already given the laity glimpses of this art but the vast majority of those whose focus is primarily cardistry (and therefore the ones who are the best at it) have sequestered their skills within the safe confines of insular internet communities. It is time that more of them come forward and take the risk of falling flat on their face in front of the laity.
So it sounds as if many of of our points are similar. Implicitly I question your tone and intentions because it sounds to me as if you wish to discourage these kids. I see many of the same problems and limitations of cardistry than you do, however, I would like to help encourage these young cardists to take the next step in their performance art. So lets just cut through the bull shall we. Have I pegged your intentions incorrectly? If so state it. Would you like to see more of them get out there and perform? Or would you prefer they stay out of sight, hidden in the back room of some convention or sequestered to a sub-forum on a magic website?
Oh....and as for your comment about poor technical skills but good performance skills. That is a poor excuse. Certainly learning to perform well is critical but I think it is a sad state when magicians excuse their poor technical skills because they have good performance skills. Watch this. It is a magician who is known more for his performance sense than his technical ability....and yet his technical ability is second to none. Make no mistake. Zammiel's Card is a true knuckle buster.
[video=youtube;wnDYD2b2lsc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnDYD2b2lsc[/video]
None of those are correct, but keep guessing. Maybe you'll get lucky.
I don't care.
So far, visualartist is the only one doing what I approve of.
No.
I never actually said I had poor technical skill. Just that I can in no way be considered the greatest. I would describe my technical abilities as "adequate" and would like to improve in that department. I just place a higher priority on expanding my theatrical skills because that's the strongest part of my shows.
Oh for the love of Christ. Sparky, I know who Derren Brown is, okay? I'm a huge fan. If you're trying to humble me, you have only succeeded in irritating me. Seriously, how stupid did you think I had to be to have been moving more into mind reading for the last two years and still not know who Derren Brown is? Do you have any idea how smug you sound?
Man, Id go as far as saying you've hijacked two threads in the last few days. When i say hijacked i mean you joined them and insulted and berated the people in them, but what makes it unacceptable is that you've contributed nothing to the discussion. I dont have any problem with your harsh way of giving advice or voicing opinions. But the last few days you're had nothing but a bad attitude. I have to assume it's not your intention to troll so what is the problem man. Before your 'hiatus' from these forums every thread you joined was better because of it. Thats not the case this week. There's nothing worse than a sore loser, or someone who cannot admit when they are wrong. So if you want to rant, start your own thread, and keep your nose out of dicussions you can contribute nothing to.
That's pretty much what Steerpike does, and the problem is he tends to THINK that kicking up dust and having a tantrum is a good way of getting a point through. The main problem with it is that people will stop taking you seriously the more you do it, no matter what your point is.
As far as the whole idea of XCM being a performance art, De'vo does it professionally enough to get invited to high paying parties and concerts. So there is that. The other thing with kids who do it in front of a webcam.. I highly doubt they are ONLY doing it in front of a webcam, chances are they could easily be performing for people at school and other such things. You have no idea what they do, just because you see a few videos on youtube.
The other thing is this.. Who cares if they don't perform it live for people all the time. Who are you to judge them? Really, answer that question right here and right now, without dancing around it. What makes you better than them? Not a damn thing. That's for sure. If they enjoy doing XCM at home on webcams or in front of their friends at school, then let them enjoy it. It's not up to you to decide how they should perform their hobby, and it never will be.
As far as the whole idea of XCM being a performance art, De'vo does it professionally enough to get invited to high paying parties and concerts. So there is that. The other thing with kids who do it in front of a webcam.. I highly doubt they are ONLY doing it in front of a webcam, chances are they could easily be performing for people at school and other such things. You have no idea what they do, just because you see a few videos on youtube.
The other thing is this.. Who cares if they don't perform it live for people all the time. Who are you to judge them? Really, answer that question right here and right now, without dancing around it. What makes you better than them? Not a damn thing. That's for sure. If they enjoy doing XCM at home on webcams or in front of their friends at school, then let them enjoy it. It's not up to you to decide how they should perform their hobby, and it never will be.
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I find myself deeply frustrated to see what few discussions there are worth having slip off the first page with only a couple of replies. Same reason I ultimately left. A lot of people here it seems just don't want to learn. So maybe I'm finally giving in? Don't know really. Ask me again in a week and I may have a better answer. I say all this with no irony.
Since you decided to follow me into threads just to harangue me or complain about me and are now lecturing me personally and making demands completely oblivious to your hypocritical behavior, I'm going to give you the response you should have expected: No. I owe you nothing. If you want to play knight in shining armor, do it somewhere away from me. I will answer to people who have actually earned my respect.
So, does anybody do XCM as a live part of a live performance? I'd even be interested if somebody did manipulation 51% of the time during their magic.
When magic was first starting out it was a side show act, it has since evolved into a performance art on it's own. Maybe there aren't any shows where the main event is cardistry but I'm curious to see if anybody performs in a side show capacity.
I watched a band a while back that had a "Robot Dancer". This guy was pretty good at what he did, he wasn't the main person by any means but he was there to help the atmosphere. He stood there for all the songs as some type of a back up dancer. It was really cool. I feel like his spot could easily be taken by a card flourisher.
When magic was first starting out it was a side show act, it has since evolved into a performance art on it's own. Maybe there aren't any shows where the main event is cardistry but I'm curious to see if anybody performs in a side show capacity.
I watched a band a while back that had a "Robot Dancer". This guy was pretty good at what he did, he wasn't the main person by any means but he was there to help the atmosphere. He stood there for all the songs as some type of a back up dancer. It was really cool. I feel like his spot could easily be taken by a card flourisher.
I think I'm going to take a crack at learning enough XCM to create a professional commercial quality routine just to see if it can be done. Card and Billiard manipulation has been on my radar anyways for a while so perhaps this is the time to put it all into good use.
I think I'll start with Genesis and McBride's work on manipulation. Maybe throw in some Dan Sperry for good measure. I'll start doing research by now so I'll have the material that I need by Christmas. New Years resolution is to have an act ready for tryouts by this time next year, maybe I'll post progress reports on Facebook.
I think I'll start with Genesis and McBride's work on manipulation. Maybe throw in some Dan Sperry for good measure. I'll start doing research by now so I'll have the material that I need by Christmas. New Years resolution is to have an act ready for tryouts by this time next year, maybe I'll post progress reports on Facebook.
I have not read the whole thread but don't people perform yo-yo tricks on stages? Card Flourishing looks cooler then that!
Wasn't talking about De'vo, I know he performs. Or at least, I assume. Im not a huge fan enough to follow what he does.
Im specifically speaking to these self entitled card artists and performance artists. Hundreds of times they have defended that what they do is an art. That they ARE artists. If someone makes that claim, I would like them to show it. They don't seem to waste time being humble so then they really MUST be artists. So i would like them to show it.
Giving yourself a title does not mean you have earned it, and if people call something a performance art then it has to be seen as such. You want me to simply assume they perform? And like you said if they simply enjoy doing it in their caves at home in front of a webcam or at school that's totally fine. I have nothing wrong with hobbyists.
But don't try to parade yourself as a performer or an artist.
My main point in this whole argument is that people call cardistry a performance art. I have never seen anyone treat it as such. It's all talk. So im looking for that performance. That progress into actually making it a performance art.
It's like having A writer taking pride in his craft and hosting seminars but he has never written a single word.
Max Vlassenko has a couple TV appearances doing cardistry/XCM. http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=10&....,cf.osb&fp=cd155e2e49945736&biw=1280&bih=645
Sorry, but when and where did people say (and I mean collectively) that cardistry is a performance art?
I have never really seen it. Sure, a few people arguing about it here and there but I haven't seen the vast majority say so.
I personally don't care either way as I just do it as a hobby.
I do not mean any disrespect to anyone on either side.
I have never really seen it. Sure, a few people arguing about it here and there but I haven't seen the vast majority say so.
I personally don't care either way as I just do it as a hobby.
I do not mean any disrespect to anyone on either side.
Cardistry is certainly something for magic nerds to geek out about when they see X person perform X sequence of cuts during their direct to webcam broadcast. Let's face it, collecting decks, and performing a sequence of cuts that is invisible to anyone more than six feet away is only something the next generation of card magicians would concoct. However, the skill level, and visual appeal that is involved certainly is noteworthy, as I believe the right act with just the right balance of manipulation, vs sleight of hand can bring this style main stream in a show package that I believe would be commercial enough to warrant buying tickets to go see. Is this going to be something anyone can do? Probably not. Cardistry will more than likely remain a form of magical masturbation done in the confines of young magicians tween to twenty's bedrooms for some years to come. However I believe that it is possible to make it more commercial. It will just take a couple of visionaries to take it to that next level.