what is a watsky?
I think I realize now what it is about all the cardistry videos it is that I dislike so much. It's always the same video, just insert different talent. Bust shot, or crotch shot. Never a face. Never any character, or dramatic build up. Always just some bloke twirling cards and spinning them around.
I mean props that you can do this stuff. God only knows I can't. But it's like trying to watch a Bin Stiller movie marathon. Once you've seen one movie you pretty much seen every character he's ever going to play, just insert different setting and supporting cast.
I think I realize now what it is about all the cardistry videos it is that I dislike so much. It's always the same video, just insert different talent. Bust shot, or crotch shot. Never a face. Never any character, or dramatic build up. Always just some bloke twirling cards and spinning them around.
If you don't like them why do you continue to watch?
If you don't like them why do you continue to watch?
This is why I don't like flourishing. There's no substance.
If you don't like them why do you continue to watch?
That really depends on the performer - best not to generalize. Like any art form, especially one with such built-in opportunity for variation, the limits to which it can go and how entertaining it is to watch are going to rely entirely on who you see doing it.
Best,
Vince
if you claim to be a magician then stop trying to be George Lucas with a camera, be a magician!
I've been doing fire performances for a long time. Poi, staff, fire breathing, etc. I have seen thousands of people doing this, and I have brought dozens of people to see these kinds of performances.
The amount of entertainment available from a prop manipulation act is inherently tied to how much the person understands the skill involved, unless the skill is made to be irrelevant (as in by making the act more of an illustration to a story, for instance).
Therefore, someone who knows nothing of the skill involved will probably enjoy it less than someone who knows what's going on.
I have yet to see a flourishing video that isn't purely about the skill.
Therefore, I will inherently enjoy every flourishing video less than you, Vinnie, because you're an authority on the subject and I'm ignorant of the specifics.
So there may be a huge amount of variation, but I can't see it because all the moves look the same to me. And almost all the videos look the same, because it's usually disembodied hands floating in front of someone's chest or crotch.
So in that sense yes, the personality of the performer comes through but not due to the way they move their hands, but the fact that I can actually see the performer.
My problem with flourishing is that it's all about what's happening with the cards, and cards are not a good prop for manipulation in my opinion. I say this because they are small, so they are hard to see if you've got any distance on the performer. If you try to make the flourishing bigger, it tends to just look like flailing one's arms around.
It's all, "I spent a long time perfecting this skill, now please indulge me and watch me do it."
I feel like this whole discussion is pretty stupid.
Here's why. We have some (I'm sure) very talented and dedicated magicians complaining about card flourishing because, A. It doesn't work for performing live (either to small, doesn't get reactions, or just the same thing over and over) or B. It is boring to them because they don't find enjoyment from the creative methods that people use come up with.
First let's talk about A. So I am I pretty avid cardist and I like to perform magic (to a lesser degree because I'm not very good). I consider these two things to be completely different hobbies.
Magic is completely for the enjoyment of spectators and is meaningless without a spectator. Card flourishing on the other hand can be for the cardists own enjoyment or for fellow card flourishers across the internet.
I personally don't make videos for the internet I use flourishing as just a fun pastime (similarly to something like TV or video games or something you do alone).
So what I'm saying is flourishing and magic are completely different activities that just share a tool (cards). Since they are different there is no reason the same rules apply from one to the other.
Now for B. Well I don't know about anyone else but I got into flourishing because I thought it was incredible what people could do with something so simple. Then as I continued watching more people and learning more I started caring about peoples methods and the more intricate moves they could do. That's what interests me, if that doesn't interest you then that's fine.
But that is why I asked my question. Not trying to be a "smartass" (as you chose to call me...) I was just asking why you were continuing to watch if you knew you didn't like flourishing.
Also you complain about all these "arm crotch shots", I agree most new people do that kinda thing and that does get old. But what about the experienced flourishers (for instance Ryuji who just won the Burt Wonderstone Contest) there are people who make very interesting videos with personality and feeling. Throwing all flourishers into one group of "boring the same old stuff" seems a little harsh and ignorant.
So basically you don't see cardists saying that magicians should change their art to match our style.
We don't say "Magic would be better if the spectators knew how hard that pass was you should reveal it". So magicians shouldn't be saying card flourishing should be like magic.
Magic and flourishing are seperate things. (they can be combined but they are not unchangebly linked)
While I understand the example, it's not a perfect analogue. Poi, staff and fire breathing have big impact, but are limited in the variety of moves and combinations possible - with cards a much larger variety of dexterous motions is possible, should the performer want to display such variety. (As for them all looking the same, I touch on that a bit below)
Yes and no. That does certainly play a role - but a good showman (or woman) entertains their audience with visual and aesthetic feats that do not entirely rely on a comprehension of skill; rather an appreciation of aesthetics. There are thousands of possible ways to present such an act (and you outlined a good one in your above quote) that do not rely entirely, or even mostly, on the viewer's ability to comprehend the skill involved to be entertained. It all comes down to the creativity of the performer.
Illustrating a story is actually a common and often important aspect of a pure-manipulation performance, as it ties the moves together and gives them deeper meaning that any audience can connect to - but it is not the only way to present pure manipulation successfully.
I mostly replied to this above, but I would like to make a further point: manipulation is inherently less audience-friendly as a stand-alone art than magic is, that is true. Regardless, it can still be used in those applications very successfully (as I have seen done and have done myself), it just requires a bit more cleverness and ingenuity on the part of the performer to make it very engaging.
Then you are missing out, my friend. Today is certainly not the "heyday" of manipulation videos, as some of the more presentation-centric and entertaining manipulators have all but vanished (Bone is a good example).
I agree - but I think that the degree of your lessened enjoyment is a product of the manipulator, not necessarily the art itself.
As above, there are a lot of great videos out there that don't follow the "formula". However, many of the people who have created them have since gone quiet.
Bear in mind that I have only just returned to the online manipulation / magic scene after a 4-year absence. So I'm used to a slightly more "old-school" style of manipulation, and some of the modern developments in the field have surprised me (and not in a good way.)
That is certainly one aspect, among others. The editing, music, story/plot, etc all play a role in engagement.
Manipulation isn't well-suited to a massive auditorium (the same way that close-up magic is not). It's better in a more intimate environment with smaller audiences and closer seating. That said, I think they are a fantastic prop, they just require a little creativity in adapting them to live audience performances. And as for camera work, there is a very large acceptable "middle ground" where both the performer and his/her manipulations are perfectly visible.
I would also like to point out that "my problem with flourishing is that it's all about what's happening with the cards," is only sometimes true, and whether or not it is true is entirely dependent on how the performer wishes to craft and display their presentation. There are far fewer limits in this art than some may think. Just because many modern manipulators do not explore new possibilities does not mean they aren't there.
That's certainly common, but please don't take it to represent the field as a whole. There are many great videos and manipulators out there that demonstrate the many, varied and entertaining things that can be done with this art.
All in all, I understand your perception and opinion of the art given your observations and experiences, but please trust me when I say that much more is possible - and has been done - than what you have likely seen. A lot of things can be done with a deck of cards and a big dose of showmanship.
All the best,
Vince
I'd LOVE to see someone actually make a cardist video, and make it interesting for once. I really would.
I'm not sure you're correct on the idea of "much wider" range of possibilities for cards than poi. Just the size and flexibility of something like poi gives you a really wide range of movements.
I've never denied the possibility of someone using flourishing in an interesting and in depth manner, but I've never seen it. I am speaking strictly as an outside observer who doesn't know much about flourishing.
Most manipulation acts I've seen tell no story and have no real meaning. This is not confined to flourishing, it applies to the vast majority of acts I've seen which are purely manipulation.
Never said it's not possible, only that I've never seen it.
I used to do some contact juggling and stumbled onto Handlordz back in .. oh, 2002 or so. Even back then, manipulation videos tended to just be hands doing stuff.
I have seen people who can do amazing things with props which seem to defy physics. But they are still displays of skill with no extra depth to them.
But it does mean that I've never seen anyone do anything more with it. There may be deeper options available, but if no one uses them, does it matter?
You can say that there's more out there and that I shouldn't assume that what I've seen is all there is. But it's all I've seen. If you've got some links somewhere, I'll watch them gladly. But until I see something other than cards flipping around each other, I won't change my mind.
Cardists rely on the same thing video after video. Horribly out of place techno- dubstep music followed by either a crotch shot or a tight in shot of their hands and busts that cuts off at the neck. Never is there any build up, any drama, or any reason for me to invest myself emotionally in X kid's for lack of a more tactful way of wording this: "showing off". It's magical masturbation. Done because it makes the performer feel good and no one else.
Anyway, to address the third and fourth points that probably stems from the fact that the flourish/manipulation community is even more political than magic. Seriously, the way De'vo and the Bucks seem to be regarded as Hatfields vs McCoys is really obnoxious. Stop it. Learn from every source you can and don't just get your moves exclusively off of one boxed set.