Truths outlining the reasons why people think of magic the way they do...

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Mar 12, 2009
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firstly, my arguement isn't "circular". I get what you mean by that, but semantically that is not correct. A circular argument is something like "it's wrong because it's wrong"

secondly, what you're saying implies that people can't both be intelligent and believe in the possiblility that SOME things cannot be explained. It is indeed possible to believe that some things that were miracles can be explained, while still believing that miracles are possible.

both of your analogies are faulty. Consider for a second that Jesus was real (I'm not saying you have to actually believe it, but enter this arguement with the premise that it's possible that he was). Is it not possible to believe that he actually DID turn water into wine, even though it is possible to create an effect (if not many) that would replicate the result.

Ditto for the iPod analogy - all because people couldn't imagine how it was done, doesn't make the device miraculous. It just means they did not have the intellect to understand how it was possible. Again, that says nothing about the human ability to simultaneously believe in miracles and understand trickery through scientific principle.

My point is not to argue the existence of miracles, it's to argue that religion is only a barrier to presentation if you see it as such, and don't take appropriate actions to avoid any objections. Salespeople know this. When someone says they don't want something because of X reason, the problem is not X reason, the problem is how you presented the product without avoiding an X reason objection.

That, and you were factually incorrect. To my knowledge, no religion explicitly bans the practice and performance of illusions - they ban blasphemous presentations of it. Despite what you may think, there IS a difference.

DUDE. you are giving me a circular argument! You believe in miracles because you do. That's it, bro. A circular argument!

And again, it's like you see my point but will not act logically.

The followers only listened to Jesus because they couldn't imagine how he did what he did! If they could explain what he did, he would be nothing but a crazy person that can perform magic!!!! And if you could explain what he did and even then still believe what he did to be a miracle and not an illusion, even though you could explain it, then YOU would be the crazy person. There's no reason for you not to believe that I am not the Messiah if you have no problem with believing that, even with an explanation, it can still be a miracle.

Yes, you could believe that Jesus actually DID turn water into wine only because you DO BELIEVE IT. This is a circular argument, as you said yourself. You do because you do.

I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong for being religious.

All I want you to admit is that because of this discussion, you have to conclude that you are religious because you want to be. You are right in your free mind to do whatever you want. You are not wrong to do anything, though again, I want you to admit that you do the religious thing because you want to. Any argument you present to me will be circular and not sound.

Religion is a good thing. It makes you happy and has something great in store for you. It provides you with a good system of morals and also helps out charity.
 
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Sep 9, 2007
512
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DUDE. you are giving me a circular argument! You believe in miracles because you do. That's it, bro. A circular argument!

That's not my arguement. Infact, I SAID that wasn't my argument in the post you quoted. Things are not as black and white as you may think. People can believe in both "religious miracles" and "simulated miracles that have an explanation rooted in physics". It may not be a logical thing to do, but people do it. Trust me.

And again, it's like you see my point but will not act logically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

The followers only listened to Jesus because they couldn't imagine how he did what he did! If they could explain what he did, he would be nothing but a crazy person that can perform magic!!!!

Wrong again. They listened to Jesus because they thought he was the son of God (whether or not he actually is, is another discussion that is irrelevant to this topic).

Take this for example, Check out the "Strongman" episodes of Scam School. A professional "Strongman" reveals how to cheat when doing feats of strength. That doesn't mean that a true Strongman can't actually do them (in fact, he often DOES do them for real in the video.) Nor does that imply that every Strongman is fake because there is indeed a way to fake it.

or for a less abstract example, say that you cheat on a test and pass. It doesn't mean you are capable of passing due to your knowledge, though the test would indicate that. Nor does it indicate that everyone who passed cheated. It is possible to get a good mark both by cheating or studying. Morals aside, this is really an example of the same thing. And people know it's true, so how is that different than believing that some miracles are real miracles and some have an explanation.
 
Sep 9, 2007
512
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I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong for being religious.

All I want you to admit is that because of this discussion, you have to conclude that you are religious because you want to be. You are right in your free mind to do whatever you want. You are not wrong to do anything, though again, I want you to admit that you do the religious thing because you want to. Any argument you present to me will be circular and not sound.

Religion is a good thing. It makes you happy and has something great in store for you. It provides you with a good system of morals and also helps out charity.

Just saw this addition, and my belief or lack thereof is irrelevant to my argument. Infact, I purposely left out any reference to my spiritual beliefs out of the argument because that's not what's being debated. What's being debated is the ability to simultaneously believe in "real miracles" and illusions. Which is something you don't seem to understand.

You're the one who's concluded that I'm religious. I never said it, It is you who's says I am.
 
Mar 12, 2009
42
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That's not my arguement. Infact, I SAID that wasn't my argument in the post you quoted. Things are not as black and white as you may think. People can believe in both "religious miracles" and "simulated miracles that have an explanation rooted in physics". It may not be a logical thing to do, but people do it. Trust me.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony



Wrong again. They listened to Jesus because they thought he was the son of God (whether or not he actually is, is another discussion that is irrelevant to this topic).

Take this for example, Check out the "Strongman" episodes of Scam School. A professional "Strongman" reveals how to cheat when doing feats of strength. That doesn't mean that a true Strongman can't actually do them (in fact, he often DOES do them for real in the video.) Nor does that imply that every Strongman is fake because there is indeed a way to fake it.

or for a less abstract example, say that you cheat on a test and pass. It doesn't mean you are capable of passing due to your knowledge, though the test would indicate that. Nor does it indicate that everyone who passed cheated. It is possible to get a good mark both by cheating or studying. Morals aside, this is really an example of the same thing. And people know it's true, so how is that different than believing that some miracles are real miracles and some have an explanation.

Bro are you really that dense? You're telling me they believed that Jesus was the son of God? FOR WHAT REASON? Here, I'll tell you like you already said oyurself... BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT IMAGINE AN EXPLANATION.

-Jesus is son of God.
-I'll listen to him because.....He is the son of God.
-He is the son of God because.... he turned water into wine.
-You can turn water into wine by using the method in the magic book....
-I don't believe Jesus turned water into wine because... he is the Son of God.
-He is the Son of God because.... YOU ASSUMED HIM TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE WITHOUT QUESTION.

-Questioning God is sinning as defined in the bible because..... it says so in the bible.
-I listen to the bible because.... It is the word of God.
-It is the word of God because.... that's what it says in the bible. (CIRCULAR ARGUMENT)

There is no other explanation dude! Sorry.
 
Mar 12, 2009
132
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And again, it's like you see my point but will not act logically.

Act logically?
You believe in god, and you tell others that they won't act logically?
Take a look at yourself for crying out loud..

Religion is a good thing. It makes you happy and has something great in store for you. It provides you with a good system of morals and also helps out charity.

"A good system of morals"??!?! Have you even READ the bible??! Or are you just ignoring all the rapes, murders, torturing, incest, brainwashing, abuse, genocides and wars? You call THAT good morals?! Do you really think the bible is a book you should live by, with all that SH*T in it?

It just takes a little thinking. Clever human beings don't need religion to act morally.

"Helps out charity" Hahaha. Religion divides more than it unites..

WHERE'S ALL THE RATIONAL THINKERS?!?!

Can a moderator please lock this thread? All this stupidity and ignorance shouldn't be allowed on this forum.
 
Oct 13, 2008
46
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After re-reading parts of this thread i must confess my head is spinning a bit. I think there's a whole lot going on, some things way too huge for a Magic Forum.

Im trying to fish points out to comment on them, lol. I think jm, you're looking at the way people interpret your effects. Perhaps now would be a good time to remind people of Wayne Houchin's story on his Stigmata DVD about how he was going to perform for some church people but they got wind of his effect and wanted to know how it was done as it genuinely gave some members of the church the hee-bee jeebies.

I have to tread carefully here but just because someone believes in God, it does not mean they account every strange happening to him, regardless of what the Bible says. The people in Wayne's story did, but they're wired that way. Someone else may not lose any sleep over it.

Derren Brown says the point of his magic is to take someone to a place where they brain starts to spin and, and this is the clincher, he says the biggest brains spin the most. And he's right. Intelligent people are fooled by a DL. I should know because i was. And im super smart ;-)

Of course once you know how it's done it's obvious, but every question is easy if you know the answer to it.

I realise now that my post is rambling so i should just bring it to a close having made no point whatsoever.

In my experience, the best part of performance is when you fool someone who looks like they'd never be fooled in a 100 years. How they interpret what happened, sleight of hand, misdirection, act of God, time travel, is up to them. With any luck your performance keeps them up nights. I did the pop up move in a bar once, the next week i went back there and an attractive young lady told me it seriously kept her awake. There was no theological discussion, no beliefs in the supernatural. Just an effect that did it's job. It floored her, and she was still talking about it 7 days later. Job. Done.

Is it okay to make a crack about Ellusionist teaming up with Jesus and Criss Angel for the Walking On Water DVD? No? Damn it.

PS If that offends anyone i'll delete it.
 
Sep 9, 2007
512
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Bro are you really that dense? You're telling me they believed that Jesus was the son of God? FOR WHAT REASON? Here, I'll tell you like you already said oyurself... BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT IMAGINE AN EXPLANATION.

-Jesus is son of God.
-I'll listen to him because.....He is the son of God.
-He is the son of God because.... he turned water into wine.
-You can turn water into wine by using the method in the magic book....
-I don't believe Jesus turned water into wine because... he is the Son of God.
-He is the Son of God because.... YOU ASSUMED HIM TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE WITHOUT QUESTION.

-Questioning God is sinning as defined in the bible because..... it says so in the bible.
-I listen to the bible because.... It is the word of God.
-It is the word of God because.... that's what it says in the bible. (CIRCULAR ARGUMENT)

There is no other explanation dude! Sorry.

lol. you read the one thing I my post which I outright said is irrelevant to even discuss.

Funny how you avoided every actual argument I made.
 
Mar 12, 2009
42
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Just saw this addition, and my belief or lack thereof is irrelevant to my argument. Infact, I purposely left out any reference to my spiritual beliefs out of the argument because that's not what's being debated. What's being debated is the ability to simultaneously believe in "real miracles" and illusions. Which is something you don't seem to understand.

You're the one who's concluded that I'm religious. I never said it, It is you who's says I am.


You cannot believe in "real miracles" and illusions at the same time. It is ILLOGICAL. It is the same as believing that someone can be both "dead" and "alive" at the same time.

If you believe in one of the two (either miracles or illusions), then by the conditions present in each, you have to not believe in the other.

from merriam-webster:

miracle: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

illusion: perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature


Enough said man. If you believe that something is a miracle, you cannot just believe it. You have to have evidence as to WHY you think it's a miracle. An extraordinary claim must have extraordinary evidence.

If I tell you I can snap my fingers and make a car fall from the sky, well you're not going to JUST believe me. You're going to need some extraordinary evidence to believe my extraordinary claim.

If Jesus tells you he can rise from the dead, then shows you by performing stigmata and stopping his heart rate, you cannot believe he just simply died and came back to life without any evidence. Because if you do, then you have to believe me that I can snap my fingers and make cars fall from the sky.

Since there is no extraordinary evidence for our friend Jesus's extraordinary claim of being the son of God, you have to conclude that what he did was an illusion because you perform magic and understand that an illusion is simply something that is perceived to have happened, not what actually happened. Simply disregarding the fact means that you do not believe in illusion.
 
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Mar 12, 2009
42
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Act logically?
You believe in god, and you tell others that they won't act logically?
Take a look at yourself for crying out loud..



"A good system of morals"??!?! Have you even READ the bible??! Or are you just ignoring all the rapes, murders, torturing, incest, brainwashing, abuse, genocides and wars? You call THAT good morals?! Do you really think the bible is a book you should live by, with all that SH*T in it?

It just takes a little thinking. Clever human beings don't need religion to act morally.

"Helps out charity" Hahaha. Religion divides more than it unites..

WHERE'S ALL THE RATIONAL THINKERS?!?!

Can a moderator please lock this thread? All this stupidity and ignorance shouldn't be allowed on this forum.

I do not believe in the existence of God. That is extremely obvious. If you couldn't pick that up, don't bother commenting.
 
Mar 12, 2009
42
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lol. you read the one thing I my post which I outright said is irrelevant to even discuss.

Funny how you avoided every actual argument I made.

What are you saying? I just disproved your argument by the simple fact that you state:

"They listened to jesus because they thought he was the son of God."

I already told you why that is irrational. They assume him to be God because there is no other explanation. Since time has passed thousands of years, you can now tell me that I'm not the son of God because you have reasons to do so. There was no such thing as magic or illusion back then, it was not yet defined.

You'll tell me it's irrelevant to discuss because it contradicts any argument you have and therefore I can't win.

What it comes down to, is that you cannot differ between me claiming to be the son of God and Jesus claiming to be.

Let's try it, you'll see for yourself.
 
Sep 9, 2007
512
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You cannot believe in "real miracles" and illusions at the same time. It is ILLOGICAL. It is the same as believing that someone can be both "dead" and "alive" at the same time.

If you believe in one of the two (either miracles or illusions), then by the conditions present in each, you have to not believe in the other.

from merriam-webster:

miracle: an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

illusion: perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature


Enough said man. If you believe that something is a miracle, you cannot just believe it. You have to have evidence. An extraordinary claim must have extraordinary evidence.

If I tell you I can snap my fingers and make a car fall from the sky, well you're not going to JUST believe me. You're going to need some extraordinary evidence to believe my extraordinary claim.

If Jesus tells you he can rise from the dead, then shows you by performing stigmata and stopping his heart rate, you cannot believe he just simply died and came back to life without any evidence. Because if you do, then you have to believe me that I can snap my fingers and make cars fall from the sky.

Since there is no extraordinary evidence for our friend Jesus's extraordinary claim of being the son of God, you have to conclude that what he did was an illusion because you perform magic and understand that an illusion is simply something that is perceived to have happened, not what actually happened. Simply disregarding the fact means that you do not believe in illusion.

I'm going to go back to my test example. There is more than one way to get a positive result. One is fake and one is real. If you don't believe that both methods are possible, then you are illogical.

People extend that same form of logic to miracles. I'm not saying I do, I'm not saying you should and I'm not saying it's correct, but I'm saying that you should understand that they people DO actually do that.

Yes, some people believe that there may be a real way to do the thing you're faking, even though they know you're faking it.

Which means you can indeed perform to the religious and have them enjoy the show, even if it's only of the artful motions you go through.

And until you realize that, the only hurdle in getting your audience to enjoy it is you. Not your audience.
 
Mar 12, 2009
42
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Then why did you write all that stuff about religion being good?
Funny I can't find that post any longer.. Did you delete it?

Because religion IS good. It gives people something to look forward to in life. IT MAKES PEOPLE HAPPY. When they die, they get to go to heaven.

I think it's bull****, but you know what? If you didn't have a reason to be happy or anything to look forward to after life, why would you do anything?

I didn't delete it wise guy, it's still there.


Anything that makes you happy in life is good for YOU, not everybody.

Like I said, I feel religion is a good thing only because it makes people happy without causing any harm. The teachings in the bible itself don't cause harm. People that misinterpret them and take them to extremes hurt people.

It's like saying guns don't kill people, people kill people.
 
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Oops. I must be on the wrong forum. I thought this was a magic forum. My mistake.

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