Showmanship Forum

Oct 23, 2012
43
0
Tampa,FL
Hey Guys!

A few months back I remember reading a post a few months back written by Craig Browning. He was talking about how Theory11 and Ellusionist should set aside a separate forum for mentalism. This sounded like a great idea and a few people were on board until the thread got old and died out. It probably got less attention then some child posting a thread about what he should get with his birthday money.

But personally I liked that idea a lot. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a mentalist. I've read 13 steps but by no means have I devoted 10 hours a day to improve showmanship. And that's what I loved about the mentalism forum idea. It could potentially double as a showmanship category. After all, showmanship and mentalism do go hand in hand. But, so does magic. A lot of people are so worried about what they are performing these days and not how they are performing. It'd be nice to hear patter ideas, crowd control stories, etc.

Actually, it'd be better to have two different categories instead of both mashed into one. I don't want Steerpike to think that I think magic and mentalism are the same thing.

I'd love to hear what you guys think! Especially Mr. Bayme!

Cheers,

/// Y:E ///
 

baguette

Elite Member
Mar 28, 2013
119
1
Hey Guys!

A few months back I remember reading a post a few months back written by Craig Browning. He was talking about how Theory11 and Ellusionist should set aside a separate forum for mentalism. This sounded like a great idea and a few people were on board until the thread got old and died out. It probably got less attention then some child posting a thread about what he should get with his birthday money.

But personally I liked that idea a lot. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a mentalist. I've read 13 steps but by no means have I devoted 10 hours a day to improve showmanship. And that's what I loved about the mentalism forum idea. It could potentially double as a showmanship category. After all, showmanship and mentalism do go hand in hand. But, so does magic. A lot of people are so worried about what they are performing these days and not how they are performing. It'd be nice to hear patter ideas, crowd control stories, etc.

Actually, it'd be better to have two different categories instead of both mashed into one. I don't want Steerpike to think that I think magic and mentalism are the same thing.

I'd love to hear what you guys think! Especially Mr. Bayme!

Cheers,

/// Y:E ///

Sounds like a good idea. However if i remember correctly (was it here or somewhere else?) that they feared that theory11's forums would end up looking like the Caf? if we started adding more forums and more disorganized and unecessary categories?
 

c.t

Apr 17, 2013
125
0
Australia
Sounds like a good idea. However if i remember correctly (was it here or somewhere else?) that they feared that theory11's forums would end up looking like the Caf? if we started adding more forums and more disorganized and unecessary categories?

Could replace the "arena" i think its called, with this, havent seen a post on there in quite some time and i feel this would be used quite alot to.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
Both E and T11 seem to fear two things; the competition and looking like the Cafe. . . then again, why would anyone want to become as cluttered at the Cafe?

Both forums have had discussions about sub-forum situations with Mentalism being at the forefront when it came to "the issue" in that Mentalism IS NOT the same thing as magic; the two are related art forms but then so is juggling, ventriloquism, mime and about a dozen other art forms that are out there -- related but not one in the same. The psychological dynamics of Mentalism make it very different from magic though we've seen the evolution of a hybrid raising it's head over the past decade -- the Urban~Shaman who can artfully bridge this gap between the two art forms.

When it comes to Showmanship I don't think a Mentalist forum is the place to learn it, think it needs its own niche area though it honestly wouldn't be overly popular... Magicians tend to avoid 'advice' when it comes to this sort of thing. In their mind, every magic lover see's themselves as being Siegfried or Lance Burton or whatever parallel exits now days . . . they do not see themselves as people with poor body presence, having a very poor vocabulary and the ability to effectively use it (one of a showman's greatest weapons), and they hate the idea of scripting thinking themselves skilled orators that can channel Chaucer. . . Hell, I've got over 50 years invested in this stuff but I've done fewer than a half-dozen actual shows in the past decade. . . I'm rusty and I'm NOT who I used to be. The point is, a real showman understands these things and realizes that he/she must be constantly working on their material because we do age and fate does place certain obstacles in our path that we must learn to work with (not so much "overcome").

The other problem with a Showmanship forum is that true showmanship, like swimming, can only be learned by doing it. We can give you the concepts and outline, but it takes stepping out there and doing it that makes the difference. The best ways to learn how to get comfortable with the stage and being in front of people is little other than acting, doing show cases, public speaking, working as a pitchman for a product, etc. For magicians I always encourage a season of work at a theme park or working the back lot of a Carnival or circus (real side show work). These venues will have you doing an act 6 to over 16 times a day; you learn as you earn and it ain't pretty going through the experience, but it's worth every minute and you'll also remember those years as your best learning experiences. ... I know I do.

I can't say a lot but it appears that someone is at least willing to consider the creation of a Magic University on line, an idea I've proposed here and elsewhere but the powers that be were too afraid of mingling with the competition to make it happen. Nonetheless, some have made note that such a vision has merit and are looking further into following through with that idea. When this happens you will find lectures and chats on numerous topics, including showmanship and how to build a professional show for each type of venue. Sadly, this is a way off, but it does seem to be happening so there is hope. . .
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
It's tough to justify making another forum especially where some of the others get so little traffic. Although if we already have card coin and cardistry forums mentalism is just another step logically.

If we were to expand Theory11's site at all I would like to see a live magic index. Maybe similar to Mier Yedid's Magic on T.V. website. Basically it would be a place where live magic events were posted. Every time I go on vacation I'm always looking out for the local magicians and trying to find out if there is anybody playing at all. It's somewhat easy to find shows in Vegas but I recently went to Colorado and was surprised by a nice show that I saw through a fluke.

I picture some sort of a calander or map where magicians could post their own magic shows as well as keep up to date with solid shows for people like David Copperfield or Steve Cohen
 
Dec 29, 2011
703
17
I think we're all forgetting that T11 is a site made to teach amateur laymen how to do magic, not for experienced professionals to come and complain about the kids, though they still do that anyway.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
Here's a complaint... kid magicians that have the big dreams as I noted earlier but have no clue what it's really like in the big ugly world where you have to fight for scraps half the time.

The majority of people doing magic now days think that if they made $10.00 doing a trick they are then a "pro" and thanks to the whole Street Magic fantasy, that is exactly what most forums are filled with an abundance of. I know that sounds crass, but so many express a desire to go pro in some way and the "hobbyists" that do shows are failing to understand how they hurt those of us that are professional, by doing free gigs or undercutting our rates.

Yes, everyone needs to cultivate work experience as a performer even when it's a hobby but, so many want to write that book, release their latest brain fart as an eBook, and believe they have to do all this "stuff" in order to be seen as a serious magician. It takes the pros to slap them on the wrist and tell such dreamers they aren't even remotely ready.

Harsh?

Not at all. . . it would be more cruel to let them continue the fantasy without any concept of what reality is.

All magic clubs, which is what on-line forums are basically, will have those that work with newbies with knit gloves as well as the crusty old salt that cracks their knuckles with his want (ala Dai Vernon). It takes this mix and related experience, to mold the novice and help them come into their own.

I've seen very little in way of complaining on this forum or E by working pro or whimpy kid either one. I see a great deal of support and an asset but like all assets, there are ways for improvement. I like the idea of a show & event schedule I think that's practical, perhaps Meir would allow us to link to his regular postings?
 
Jan 11, 2013
168
2
Dubai
Here's a complaint... kid magicians that have the big dreams as I noted earlier but have no clue what it's really like in the big ugly world where you have to fight for scraps half the time.

The majority of people doing magic now days think that if they made $10.00 doing a trick they are then a "pro" and thanks to the whole Street Magic fantasy, that is exactly what most forums are filled with an abundance of. I know that sounds crass, but so many express a desire to go pro in some way and the "hobbyists" that do shows are failing to understand how they hurt those of us that are professional, by doing free gigs or undercutting our rates.

Yes, everyone needs to cultivate work experience as a performer even when it's a hobby but, so many want to write that book, release their latest brain fart as an eBook, and believe they have to do all this "stuff" in order to be seen as a serious magician. It takes the pros to slap them on the wrist and tell such dreamers they aren't even remotely ready.

Harsh?

Not at all. . . it would be more cruel to let them continue the fantasy without any concept of what reality is.

Very well said Craig.
 
Oct 23, 2012
43
0
Tampa,FL
Here's a complaint... kid magicians that have the big dreams as I noted earlier but have no clue what it's really like in the big ugly world where you have to fight for scraps half the time.

The majority of people doing magic now days think that if they made $10.00 doing a trick they are then a "pro" and thanks to the whole Street Magic fantasy, that is exactly what most forums are filled with an abundance of. I know that sounds crass, but so many express a desire to go pro in some way and the "hobbyists" that do shows are failing to understand how they hurt those of us that are professional, by doing free gigs or undercutting our rates.

Yes, everyone needs to cultivate work experience as a performer even when it's a hobby but, so many want to write that book, release their latest brain fart as an eBook, and believe they have to do all this "stuff" in order to be seen as a serious magician. It takes the pros to slap them on the wrist and tell such dreamers they aren't even remotely ready.

Harsh?

Not at all. . . it would be more cruel to let them continue the fantasy without any concept of what reality is.

All magic clubs, which is what on-line forums are basically, will have those that work with newbies with knit gloves as well as the crusty old salt that cracks their knuckles with his want (ala Dai Vernon). It takes this mix and related experience, to mold the novice and help them come into their own.

I've seen very little in way of complaining on this forum or E by working pro or whimpy kid either one. I see a great deal of support and an asset but like all assets, there are ways for improvement. I like the idea of a show & event schedule I think that's practical, perhaps Meir would allow us to link to his regular postings?


What if forums were like old school magic clubs?

I mean didn't you have to prove that you were a magician to get in?

Why don't we have something like that? Something where you have to prove your, "Showmanship Skills".

I know it would be hard to do online and that a video wouldn't do much justice but i'm sure there is some way to do it.

Maybe it's just time to bring back the old school magic clubs. Or create a forum that isn't affiliated with business and competition. A forum just dedicated to the art of magic and nothing else.

I think that's the reason many forums are overpopulated with kids talking about the best deck of cards or what they should get for their birthday, Because at the end of the day Theory11, E, and The Blue Crown are all business's. Yes, they love magic but like any other business, they love money too.

Then, the only, "Forums dedicated solely to the art of magic", are;

A- The Second Deal, which you have to pay for, so that ends up being a business.

and

B- The Cafe, which is extremely convoluted with sub topics.


Many people will probably take my post as, "hateful". But, it isn't. I'm just listing the pros and cons of most forums today. And how maybe we can change those cons into pros.


/// Y:E ///
 
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