Magic Theft

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
I getting to the point where almost everything I do is mostly my own. I either created it myself, I do it significantly different than others, or very few magicians perform what I do. It's an exciting place to be but it opens up to point of stress. Other magicians want to learn and do my stuff!

I understand that it's a compliment but I don't really understand it. The way I got to this stage is by not copying others, why would a magician want to copy me, Chris Ramsay, David Blaine, Dynamo or others? Why not develop your own stuff?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
If others want to copy you, let them do it.

No. Why on earth should I do that? They have absolutely no right to use my work without permission from me.

It's not just a matter of people stealing work, either - allowing someone else to do your original material dilutes your brand and can actively hurt your prospects for work if you're a working performer. In any other performance art, stealing someone's work as your own is a solid way to be ostracized - only magicians seem to think it's OK.

To answer the OP: People want to learn your work because they lack creativity and they see you getting good reactions. They assume if they do what you do, they'll also get good reactions. They don't understand that the reactions come from the skill of performer. In other words, they are poor performers.
 
Oct 6, 2017
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Pittsburgh, PA
It takes a lot of effort, knowledge and creativity to be original. It takes no effort to copy someone who has developed the knowledge and exercised their creativity.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head, with lack of creativity or knowledge of certain methods. If someone just copies exactly what you do, it is easy.

Lately I have been thinking about a trick or maybe even watch a performance and I try to take the trick or effect and figure it out with the knowledge I have. "How would I do this?"
I've wondered if even by doing that, am I stepping on someone's toes because maybe the way I figured it out is the exact same method of the creator but without paying for it.
Now obviously I am not someone who does this for money so really it probably has little to no effect but it is still in the back of my mind.
 

DavidL11229

Elite Member
Jul 25, 2015
589
314
Seattle
I can understand beginners wanting to copy others. You have to learn other people's songs before you can write your own music, but I agree there is no good reason for active magicians to do this. They are just asking to hear "yeah, you got that from David Blaine".
 
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I can understand beginners wanting to copy others. You have to learn other people's songs before you can write your own music, but I agree there is no good reason for active magicians to do this. They are just asking to hear "yeah, you got that from David Blaine".


Until you’re asked “Oh can you do that one trick with the card in the orange like David Blaine?” Much like how after you finish most of your set as a band you might play a few covers, or kill it with Freebird because one guy thought it would be funny to heckle with that. (First song our band learned that wasn’t an original just in case).

I think if you look at it through a different lens, it is somewhat acceptable. Here are my two paths of thought: Magician wants to learn a routine he saw and twist it into his own version. That’s fine. We’ve all seen it and it’s typically done with the original creator’s blessing. The artistic cover and interpretation.

For the other path of thought, it mostly lends itself to newer magicians who want to be able to do what their idol, favorite etc did as they recognized the effect it had on others, including themselves.

Also regarding creativity, at a certain point isn’t that just bought with content creators and consultants? Like David Blaine may have learned how to regurgitate frogs and water, yet the card trick he incorporated with it might have come from Blake Voigt (first name that popped to mind).
 
May 28, 2018
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100
Saint Louis, MO
Hello all, this is my very first message since I didn't happen to notice any sort of introduce yourself thread and this is a subject I find very interesting.

If you are concerned with getting credit where it is due among your peers then about the only thing you can really do is publish your method/trick/routine/illusion before you ever show it to a fellow magician that you don't trust implicitly. People will still copy your stuff but at least there is a "paper trail".

If you are concerned with the protection of IP, forget it. It only takes a little bit of change to skirt copyright/patent law and only a handful of magic IP infringement suits have ever been successfully litigated.

Check out M. Close's website, he has written some interesting things on the subject.

Anyway just my 2p.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
Until you’re asked “Oh can you do that one trick with the card in the orange like David Blaine?” Much like how after you finish most of your set as a band you might play a few covers, or kill it with Freebird because one guy thought it would be funny to heckle with that. (First song our band learned that wasn’t an original just in case).

I just watched a David Blaine video where he has a request like that. The newscaster he's performing for says, "Could you teleport yourself to the Eiffel tower?". His response surprised me, "No, that's not me." We all get silly requests like that. Establishing yourself as something different and sticking to it is kind of why I created this thread. I'm trying hard to do that, I'd love it if the rest of the magic community did as well.

If you are concerned with getting credit where it is due among your peers then about the only thing you can really do is publish your method/trick/routine/illusion before you ever show it to a fellow magician that you don't trust implicitly. People will still copy your stuff but at least there is a "paper trail".

If you are concerned with the protection of IP, forget it. It only takes a little bit of change to skirt copyright/patent law and only a handful of magic IP infringement suits have ever been successfully litigated.

Check out M. Close's website, he has written some interesting things on the subject.

Anyway just my 2p.

Welcome to the forums :)

This isn't what I'm talking about. I share original material all the time. I write for Penguin Magic Monthly and have my own column where I share my magic. I'm very giving with my stuff. In my profession repertoire it's different. There are certain things I do that are my own, I don't want people copying me. I don't care if they think I invented it or if it's a classic. I don't get it when people want to copy others.
 
Aug 15, 2017
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I getting to the point where almost everything I do is mostly my own. I either created it myself, I do it significantly different than others, or very few magicians perform what I do. It's an exciting place to be but it opens up to point of stress. Other magicians want to learn and do my stuff!

I understand that it's a compliment but I don't really understand it. The way I got to this stage is by not copying others, why would a magician want to copy me, Chris Ramsay, David Blaine, Dynamo or others? Why not develop your own stuff?
Reaching a stage where most of your work is your own creation is a brilliant stage in one's magical journey.

Copying others is kinda wrong...no matter what...but only if they do so deliberately. It is a beginner's tendency to copy those whom they admire. When I was starting out, well, it was weird...after a few days of watching Brian Brushwood, I had become him...then after a few days of Dynamo, I had become Dynamo...and this kept happening for some time. Finally, came a time...when I thought, "Hmm...I think if I do it this way, it would suit me better."
And so, I developed my own style and became me! I wasn't copying anyone deliberately...it just happened.

But as far as copying tricks themselves go...I really can't think of any reason it would be wrong UNLESS IT IS A TRICK YOU HAVE CREATED AND ARE TRYING TO SELL.
Ethically, it is not fair to use someone's creation even if they are not selling it, but well, there's no proof of that mistake, because you haven't officially copyrighted your creation, others can very well come in and take ideas.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that it is morally wrong.

There is one aspect of copying however, which I feel, even morals and ethics can't declare as 'wrong'.

Learning yourself.

What if someone sees another's creation and figures out how it was done?
Is it still copying?
What if they figure it out through their own knowledge?

If the creation in question is not a complete new creation, but a new way to assemble well known sleights, then anyone else can ''copy'' it without being morally wrong. Look at it in this way...
A magician does a trick in an AGT audition. I love the effect. I figure out a way to do it...not the exact same of what he is doing (maybe where he uses a force, I plan to use a keycard...)...a bit different...my style.
But the general effect in question remains the same.

Can that be labelled as copying?

As for WHY people would do it...well, they may be,

1)Lazy:- Too lazy to come up with their own idea. So, they borrow others'.

2) Nervous and wanna be secure:- They may be thinking, "Why take risk when there is a tried and tested effect right in front of me?"

3) Lack of ideas and beginnerism:- No one should have a problem with this. A beginner who is just starting out...well, he is completely right to want to look for brilliant performances online not to copy them word for word, but to get effect ideas! I'd say, that's a better thing to do, looking at performances and getting ideas...than looking up reveals and copying them like a parrot.

4) They admire you:- Again, there should be no problem here. If someone copies someone they admire, they generally credit the original creator. Also, if the one whose style they admire TELL people officially they mustn't copy something, they won't. For example, if Xavior Spade had some brilliant fan out there who admires Spade's work a lot, that fan would prolly buy the Rise DVD himself and wouldn't torrent it or something. And if he does learn it, he would never go about saying he invented the effect.
 
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I just watched a David Blaine video where he has a request like that. The newscaster he's performing for says, "Could you teleport yourself to the Eiffel tower?". His response surprised me, "No, that's not me." We all get silly requests like that. Establishing yourself as something different and sticking to it is kind of why I created this thread. I'm trying hard to do that, I'd love it if the rest of the magic community did as well.



Welcome to the forums :)

This isn't what I'm talking about. I share original material all the time. I write for Penguin Magic Monthly and have my own column where I share my magic. I'm very giving with my stuff. In my profession repertoire it's different. There are certain things I do that are my own, I don't want people copying me. I don't care if they think I invented it or if it's a classic. I don't get it when people want to copy others.

While I don't mean to be dismissive of the point you're trying to make, I would say a vast majority of the working magicians on here or elsewhere aren't in a position to decline a customer's request if they're paying for entertainment. Lets say Blaine could teleport to the Eiffel Tower, he is accomplished and recognized enough to say "Nah, I'm not up for that right now". If you're being booked for a private gig and your customer wants you to do something that you know and you're borrowing (say card in citrus fruit to stay on the Blaine theme) or you don't know. Chances are you'll either perform the trick, via knowing it, improv or learning, or talk the client into something similar that is original.

At the end of the day, in those situations the customer is unfortunately the deciding factor. That might be the favorite effect of a person at the private venue and by not doing it, you could be hurting your reputation. My situation is more or less situational however (Where "stealing" could be seen as acceptable). If you're acting like the Carlos Mencia of magic though, then you're a complete tosser.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
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But as far as copying tricks themselves go...I really can't think of any reason it would be wrong UNLESS IT IS A TRICK YOU HAVE CREATED AND ARE TRYING TO SELL.

And this is a neat summary of a large portion of what's wrong with the magic community currently.

Here's the thing, just because I'm not selling it to the magic community, doesn't mean I'm not selling it. I'm selling my material to my clients, who pay me to perform it. This is why I don't put video online, and rarely perform for other magicians. They're WAY too quick to find a reason why it's OK to steal my material.

What if someone sees another's creation and figures out how it was done?
Is it still copying?
What if they figure it out through their own knowledge?

Figuring out how it's done is not copying - Performing the trick the same way that person performs it, is copying. Or performing it in a way that makes people think, "Oh that's like Bob McRabbitinahat's trick!"

4) They admire you:- Again, there should be no problem here.

Except there is. Because by copying someone else you dilute and possibly damage their brand. You chip away at what makes them unique and interesting. Banachek has lost gigs to people who imitated his style, because even if the imitators are inferior performers, they are almost always significantly cheaper. Laymen don't understand the difference - they see two people doing nearly the same thing, and go with whoever costs less.

All that being said, I do recognize that a certain degree of imitation is vital to the process of learning. Humans do learn by imitating - so someone who's still learning will more or less be forced to imitate other people until they are knowledgeable enough to create their own style. But, in my opinion, one has no hope of creating actual art until they are not copying anyone else.

While I don't mean to be dismissive of the point you're trying to make, I would say a vast majority of the working magicians on here or elsewhere aren't in a position to decline a customer's request if they're paying for entertainment.

I disagree with this, personally. I have declined requests that didn't suit my style or character. If you are a unique character you are easily able to refuse requests that are not "on brand" as they say. If you're hired to be, for example, a bizarre hypnotist, and someone asks you to do "That trick with the bunnies", you can easily say something like, "That's not really my style. Let me show you something I think you'll find intriguing."

Here's how I see it - Stealing material may be ethically/morally grey (to some people). However, from a purely practical standpoint, every time someone copies someone else it weakens in the entire industry a little bit.

Here's why: Every bit that one magician does, that other magicians copy, make those magicians more interchangeable. When people providing a service are interchangeable, the only negotiation point becomes price, which becomes a race to the bottom.

Even on a casual basis - if you are basically only offering the the same things that other performers are offering, what's the point of watching you? They can watch the original on YouTube or whatever - it's better to watch a master do it on a screen, than to watch someone imitate a master (probably not as well) in person.

Which is why I believe everyone should do as much as they can to become as unique as they can, as soon as they can. At this point I can say that while I do some tricks that others do, I do them in my own unique way. Everything I do is stamped with my personality and my style, so if someone wants that, they have to hire me.
 
May 28, 2018
106
100
Saint Louis, MO
Thanks for the welcome.

In the west we have fetish-ized originality in art. We raise that "virtue" so high that it seems to overshadow all other artistic concerns, but "original crap is still crap" -Anon Redneck Art Critic.

Compare the western attitude toward the prevailing eastern attitude. There the highest virtue consists of absolute mastery of what one was taught by one's master. You could look at a mountain-scape by a 19th century Chinese master painter and it would be practically indistinguishable from a mountain-scape by his master's master's master. The question of originality doesn't even come into the mind of the "classical" Chinese art critic.

What is it to be original in magic anyway? There are only about a dozen different effects with cards. All coin effects break down to two effects, vanishes and productions--before somebody mentions spellbound, a transformation is just a simultaneous vanish of one object coinciding with the production of another. Originality in plot? Whenever a new plot comes along even seasoned pros jump on it like raw meat if it is a genuine eye or mind popper.

IMHO, presentation is the place where we should strive for originality. Presentation is where we put our stamp on what we have inherited from the giants of the past. Presentation is where you transform the mechanics of trickery into the illusion of impossibility. Presentation is what makes lay people crack open their wallets.

As for why people copy, I think Lord Magic just about covered it.

Josh since you have worked for Harlan and co over at Penguin I wouldn't run down copying too much. They have an entire business model reliant on copying. :) Just sayin'.
 
Aug 15, 2017
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Here's the thing, just because I'm not selling it to the magic community, doesn't mean I'm not selling it. I'm selling my material to my clients, who pay me to perform it. This is why I don't put video online, and rarely perform for other magicians. They're WAY too quick to find a reason why it's OK to steal my material.
I understand what you mean. I did say it is wrong. But not legally speaking.

Figuring out how it's done is not copying - Performing the trick the same way that person performs it, is copying. Or performing it in a way that makes people think, "Oh that's like Bob McRabbitinah
Exactly.

Except there is. Because by copying someone else you dilute and possibly damage their brand. You chip away at what makes them unique and interesting. Banachek has lost gigs to people who imitated his style, because even if the imitators are inferior performers, they are almost always significantly cheaper
Hmmm...I see...this will actually make for wonderful food for thought to be honest...
See...this is what I like abt these forums and these topics...they make you think beyond questions like "Is my pass flashing?"

Laymen don't understand the difference - they see two people doing nearly the same thing, and go with whoever co
Which is why we need to make magic an art. We need to let the laymen in enough so that they know the difference between good and bad magic. Not "in" as to, you know, tell them how mnemonica works, but...just enough...

Humans do learn by imitating - so someone who's still learning will more or less be forced to imitate other people until they are knowledgeable enough to create their own style. But, in my opinion, one has no hope of creating actual art until they are not copying anyone else.
Again, true. Once they learn the correct stuff, once some proper magic teacher tells them in person, thru pages or thru a videl, that they need to be aware that they are not copying people accidentally...hopefully any accidental copies out there can be prevented.
 
Aug 15, 2017
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The unfortunate thing here is, that most popular magicians today perform others' effects, with permission, but...well...the creator in question remains anonymous...

Aaah...the bitter world...
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
The audience doesn't actually care how we do what we do, and they don't really care who we learned it from. That information isn't going to be more than a blip for most people.

They want to have a pleasant/interesting, unique experience. They want to feel special for having been there for that show.

The more unique one makes their act, the more likely the audience is to feel they are having a unique experience that can't be found elsewhere, and that's valuable.

People who copy tricks are just trying to shortcut to the end. In doing so they sell themselves short, and they hurt others in the industry. You cannot ever hope to be truly unique or interesting, or truly express yourself, if you're always waiting for someone else to do something for you to copy (Generic you, not you specifically Lord Magic)
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
It's one thing to learn from another, it's another thing to be a cover band. I wish it was an Eastern quest for mastery.

What I experience is young magicians asking me, "How did Dynamo do that?" or "Where can I learn how to do what you just did?" Maybe I should tell them how it works but I don't want to. I feel like if I was to give them what they want it would be wrong.

Josh since you have worked for Harlan and co over at Penguin I wouldn't run down copying too much. They have an entire business model reliant on copying. :) Just sayin'.

I don't know what you mean here but that feels like a jab. I brought up my work with Penguin to illustrate that I'm not talking about teaching magic.

While I don't mean to be dismissive of the point you're trying to make, I would say a vast majority of the working magicians on here or elsewhere aren't in a position to decline a customer's request if they're paying for entertainment. Lets say Blaine could teleport to the Eiffel Tower, he is accomplished and recognized enough to say "Nah, I'm not up for that right now". If you're being booked for a private gig and your customer wants you to do something that you know and you're borrowing (say card in citrus fruit to stay on the Blaine theme) or you don't know. Chances are you'll either perform the trick, via knowing it, improv or learning, or talk the client into something similar that is original.

I respectfully disagree. I turn people down on a daily basis. I try to be kind and give them positive alternatives but I will turn people down. I get asked to do kids parties often and I decline because I know I'm not the right guy. If I want to do a trick for a couple with kids, they often request that do it for their kids instead. I decline and continue how I feel will be most enjoyable for all. I'm not being stubborn or rude I just know from experience that some presentations work better for certain people.

Okay, here's a scenario. The CEO, the powerful guy that hired you, approaches you from across the room and says, "I saw a magician once, and he did X. Can you do that?" for the sake of argument let's say you can, do you do it for him?

Many would. I say that you should not. If you do the trick you run the risk of making yourself or the other magician look bad. Even if you succeed, you run the risk of being indistinguishable from the other guy. That's a problem for me.

My reaction is different. I'd say something along the lines of, "Wow that sounds amazing. My stuff's a little different, here's what I do." Making your performance package seem unique is worth more than proving that you are as good as the other guy. You don't have to take requests.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
I would distinguish between asking for sources and methods and copying presentation.

I think it is OK to ask for sources and methods for effects. Some magicians like the idea of showing something they have come up with, others prefer to keep it secret. It is OK for a magician to say this is my own method and something that I'm not willing to put out there for others to use. It is also OK for the magician to provide a general source -- "It is adapted from a routine in Greater Magic."

As for presentation, I'm much more protective. That is something you can copy without asking. To be honest, I've never seen a copy that is as good as the original. I've seen Kevin James do his floating rose and seen others try to copy it. Kevin's is beautiful and the others leave me flat. I've seen a magician try to copy Jeff McBride's Miser's Dream routine using an adult and I'm still traumatized. The reason is that the presentation never becomes the magician's presentation.

As a final caveat, there are presentations that I use that are adaptations of scripts from published effects. There is one creator / author who's effects and scripting style works very well with my presentation style. I've adapted the effects and presentation to even better suit my style. I think, in that way, they have become my own. If you watched my show, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between those pieces and the pieces I've scripted myself. That said, I'd never copy the script of a magician I've seen perform.

As for being asked to perform a certain effect, my performing style doesn't lend itself to doing that. My shows are parlor shows and I don't do requests... mainly because I haven't put the work and effort into scripting and developing those effects into presentation pieces.
 
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