Bringing People to Jesus through Magic

[praetoritevong]

Believing two opposing beliefs is not at all what I'm saying. I'm not asking people to believe in two opposing beliefs, I'm asking that people accept that others hold that opposite belief, respect that fact, and refrain from taking unnecessary cheap shots at said opposite belief. You don't have to believe in something, to respect someone's right to believe in it.

 

[Sirtaco]

Christianity not a religion? Thats news to me!

 

[William Draven]

And for that reason alone Praetoritevong is why this thread can not be allowed to exist. I'm surprised it has made it this far.

 

[Justin.Morris]

No offense intended for those who cannot refrain from being judgmental and close minded about how someones faith and their hobby actually coexist together.

Faith is something that should affect every area of someone's life - including their hobbies. Gospel magic is actually a large area of the art of magic, and it is often more than just tricks, but more in the patter.

Faith is something that should permeate everything you do, every decision you make, every conversation you have. That doesn't mean you are always sharing your faith, but it should affect how you behave. For instance, if you are a jerk, then your actions and conversation will reflect that, if you are a person who believes in God, and are striving to be a better person, then your actions, and decisions should reflect that too. Christians who totally separate their faith from different parts of their life, are missing the point completely.

So if you don't want to respect all the different areas of our hobby/art, then that is fine, but don't post on a thread about this aspect, (which was doing just fine btw) and start flaming your rude and intolerant opinions, and ruining what some find a very helpful and informative topic. (obviously expressing an opinion is fine, but many of these last few posts are just rude and selfish.)

Let's keep this topic about that it is supposed to be about, and not a religion debate topic, as that does not belong on these forums.

justin

 

[urban entropy]

Let's keep this topic about that it is supposed to be about, and not a religion debate topic, as that does not belong on these forums.

Religion does not belong on these forums period, regardless of what context it is being discussed in.

Faith is something that should affect every area of someone's life

In your opinion; and this only proves why a topic on religion and magic does not belong here. Your preaching, and so are the others that are defending this thread.

- including their hobbies. Gospel magic is actually a large area of the art of magic, and it is often more than just tricks, but more in the patter.

Again, I disagree. In both Christian and Catholic history, any type of magic performed would automatically condemn the performer. Hell, even actors were condemned as the theater was 'The Devil's work.'

Funny how you adopt what used to belong to the devil, from your originator's perspective, to now spread your word.

It is unfortunate certain people automatically associate religion with personal judgement. It really shouldn't be the case. It's almost sad-- I imagine otherwise most people would try to be as open-minded and tolerant as possible, but once God comes into coversation, anything and everything becomes too taboo to discuss.

The underlying cause could be attributed to the ignorance that so many members of the church show other people. Gay rights, gay marriage, freedom of speech and belief, the outright rage that members' show when a film like The Golden Compass is released, and on and on. Now many church goers are sounding the battle alarm because noone wants to say Merry Christmas (which only shows their ignorance to the much varied history of the Holiday season which has very little to do with Jesus.)

Tolerance is something that the church should be showing by example, unfortunately the complete opposite is usually the standard.

God is a miracle maker and we are playing with toys

More preaching........

As much as they entertain, they also show bigger and real things in life.

Uh huh. You mean when I perform an ACR I have the potential to show how Romero's Day of the Dead could be possible? Sounds just as ridiculous.

Tricks are copies of real miracles that happen in this world. Ponder the illusion of rainbows. Just thoughts - he.he..

Since when is a rainbow a miracle? Or an illusion? It's light reflected through moisture in the atmosphere. I suppose Rainbow Bright will make an appearance if I sit and play with my cards long enough and pray to see her on her horse and everything..................yep, sounds just as ridiculous.

Look, I'm not trying to be ignorant nor a rabble riser. More so I'm trying to point out why the majority out there - and yes it is a majority, are tired of seeing religious posts on public forums.

If you want to talk religion and magic, then go to a specific forum designed for religion. Don't peddle your thoughts here because as you can tell by all the 'immature' posts here, it's not wanted.

Equally, I respectfully disagree with the idea of "spreading the word of god" in the first place and I strongly oppose it when I see it in person. Freedom of belief is something that should be aloud I agree, which means that you have the freedom to keep it to yourself and your fellow believers. Leave the rest of us out of it.

urban

 

[magicdavid]

Why do you say that debating a religion doesn't belong here but then you post this 12 paragraph post on why gospel magic doesn't make sense? And who died and made you mod?

 

[Justin.Morris]

urban entropy, you are not adding anything to this discussion, except your hate and disdain. You might get someone to argue with you, but I refuse. If you have questions or want to discuss your thoughts on religion and Christianity, feel free to pm me anytime.

Other than that let's keep it on topic.

j

 

[urban entropy]

Why do you say that debating a religion doesn't belong here but then you post this 12 paragraph post on why gospel magic doesn't make sense?

I said the discussion of religion doesn't belong here. The fact that the original poster opened up the discussion means that it is also open for debate, though I would still prefer the subject in and of itself wasn't on this forum. So long as it is I can intelligently debate it, which is what I did.

And who died and made you mod?

I never said I was a mod, however given the context of your reply I can only assume that you, like others, don't like the size of the holes that can so obviously be punched into your circular logic.

urban

 

[cbols23]

IMO Putting religion and magic together is not a good idea.

 

[urban entropy]

urban entropy, you are not adding anything to this discussion, except your hate and disdain.

Far from. Sarcastic? Yes. Hate and disdain, I don't think so. I didn't post anything immature or hateful, nor did I want to 'get someone to argue.'

The fact of the matter is, by broaching this topic you inherently open it up for debate. Why? Because there are users both young and old who disagree with the thread existing in the first place.

Giving me a label of 'hater' will not make me disapear, nor will it automatically render me mute.

If you have questions or want to discuss your thoughts on religion and Christianity, feel free to pm me anytime.

No thanks. I can see from your post where your 'tolerance level' sits.

urban

 

[Justin.Morris]

Far from. Sarcastic? Yes. Hate and disdain, I don't think so. I didn't post anything immature or hateful, nor did I want to 'get someone to argue.'

The fact of the matter is, by broaching this topic you inherently open it up for debate. Why? Because there are users both young and old who disagree with the thread existing in the first place.

Giving me a label of 'hater' will not make me disapear, nor will it automatically render me mute.



No thanks. I can see from your post where your 'tolerance level' sits.

urban

Then your other option is to contribute productively to the discussion.


j

 

[Deleted member 2755]

A few people have been saying this thread should be closed, but whats weird is that I have not gotten any PM's yet about anyone wanting this thread closed and no posts have been reported. I also currently think that there is no rule breaking here. If anyone feels this thread should be closed and has a good reason, don't hesitate to send me or another moderator a PM.

I don't think this thread is breaking any rules and it is a good discussion. If you don't wish to participate, you don't have to. Anyway, now for my views....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think its unethical to use magic to spread word of religion. I think that when in an astonished state of mind, almost anything is believable with the right presentation. I've been asked if I do dark magic before... Also, when joking with some people one time about having supernatural powers, they believed me. No joke. I had to tell them that what I was doing was not real.

I feel using magic to gain influence on something is unethical because they aren't thinking in their normal state of mind. You are using magic as a way to manipulate someone's mind and opinions.

Magic and religion should not be used together. I have no respect for anyone who tries to spread religion through magic. Its unethical and I don't think it should be done.

-Doug

 

[urban entropy]

Then your other option is to contribute productively to the discussion.

An ultimatum? Thank you for your permission.

A few people have been saying this thread should be closed, but whats weird is that I have not gotten any PM's yet about anyone wanting this thread closed and no posts have been reported. I also currently think that there is no rule breaking here. If anyone feels this thread should be closed and has a good reason, don't hesitate to send me or another moderator a PM.

Fair enough Doug. I have not pm'd you. I admit to just assuming that eventually you would just show up and close

I don't think this thread is breaking any rules and it is a good discussion.

I think it would be a good discussion if people realized that some of us, like yourself, disagree with the idea of blending religion with magic.

I have no respect for anyone who tries to spread religion through magic. Its unethical and I don't think it should be done.

Absolutely and I agree. Although I have also just previously stated that I disagree with preaching of any kind to the public in general. It's simply wrong. To preach to a group of already commited believers is one thing. To preach to the public is wholly something different and in my opinion, totally wrong.

For those who want to see a tasteful yet controversial reveal of what is possible when combining religion and magic, and to back up what Doug's point underlines, search youtube for Derren Brown's Conversion Part one and two.

urban

 

[Rabid]

But the funny thing is that almost everyone that we witness to(as long as we are using a biblical method and God Words) that is rational will be receptive.

You all are entitled to your opinions, but for me...the above quote sums up the main reason this type of thing does not belong here. I also find it hilarious that when such a dangerous topic as religion and / or belief is brought up in an open forum, that so many people get annoyed when someone else challenges them. It's ok to share one side of belief it seems...but not the reverse?

How very odd.



I'm reminded of some old Queensryche lyrics which are not entirely topical to this thread but serve a purpose nonetheless:

"Religion and sex are power plays,
Manipulate the people for the money they pay.
Selling skin, selling God,
The numbers look the same on their credit cards."



Rabid

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

I think its unethical to use magic to spread word of religion. I think that when in an astonished state of mind, almost anything is believable with the right presentation. I've been asked if I do dark magic before... Also, when joking with some people one time about having supernatural powers, they believed me. No joke. I had to tell them that what I was doing was not real.

I feel using magic to gain influence on something is unethical because they aren't thinking in their normal state of mind. You are using magic as a way to manipulate someone's mind and opinions.

Magic and religion should not be used together. I have no respect for anyone who tries to spread religion through magic. Its unethical and I don't think it should be done.

-Doug

I think you have a wrong impression on gospel magic.

Let me first say I am not a believer, so I am not biased by the opinion I am about to make.

But I have seen one of the worlds greatest magicians, Andre Kole, do a christian presentation through one of his shows. At no time was the magic used to "convert" people to religion or make them believe anything. As a matter of fact, Andre took an intermission and said that anyone who did not wish to hear his message were free to leave and then re-enter to see his final effect of the night. No pressure, nothing was forced.

Instead, it was a gospel message presented through a form of entertainment. Andre used magic not to dumbfound people into a belief but as an entertaining way to spread the word. During his message he did have one effect, a traveling light bulb, but it was simply used as a visual demonstration of what he was saying. I find that no different than any number of pastors using power point slides to visually show a point they are trying to make.

The entire point of gospel magic, an area I have a small amount of experience in, is to have a visual and entertaining way of spreading the word. It is not sawing someone in half "by the power of god".

That said, there are many charlatans that have used magic and mentalism methods to sucker people into a "belief", which was really just giving them money.
Watch the video of Randi exposing Peter Popoff and you'll see exactly what I mean.
However, that is NOT a representation of gospel magic, which is what I believe this thread is on.

Once again, I am not a believer. I am, however, a religious supporter. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I have to make sure no one else does. Are there people who make religious scams using magic? Yes, but do not make the ignorant generalization that they are representative of all of this genre of magic and missionary venture.


C

 

[Justin.Morris]

A few people have been saying this thread should be closed, but whats weird is that I have not gotten any PM's yet about anyone wanting this thread closed and no posts have been reported. I also currently think that there is no rule breaking here. If anyone feels this thread should be closed and has a good reason, don't hesitate to send me or another moderator a PM.

I don't think this thread is breaking any rules and it is a good discussion. If you don't wish to participate, you don't have to. Anyway, now for my views....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think its unethical to use magic to spread word of religion. I think that when in an astonished state of mind, almost anything is believable with the right presentation. I've been asked if I do dark magic before... Also, when joking with some people one time about having supernatural powers, they believed me. No joke. I had to tell them that what I was doing was not real.

I feel using magic to gain influence on something is unethical because they aren't thinking in their normal state of mind. You are using magic as a way to manipulate someone's mind and opinions.

Magic and religion should not be used together. I have no respect for anyone who tries to spread religion through magic. Its unethical and I don't think it should be done.

-Doug

That's a good point, so am I right in saying it is similar to when a psychic or medium uses tricks to fool others into believing what they are doing (for money or for their sincere beliefs, etc)?

So what if a person uses the illusion as an illustration, not claiming powers, but using it to teach (for instance at sunday school, or at the youth group)? This (in my head) would be similar to using magic for an illustration at a corporate event to display corporate values, or, in a classroom to teach kids to think outside the box. I don't see magic as brainwashing, or mid control in any sort of way, but I do see how it could be (and is) used deceptively.

j

 

[Justin.Morris]

That said, there are many charlatans that have used magic and mentalism methods to sucker people into a "belief", which was really just giving them money.
Watch the video of Randi exposing Peter Popoff and you'll see exactly what I mean.
However, that is NOT a representation of gospel magic, which is what I believe this thread is on.

Once again, I am not a believer. I am, however, a religious supporter. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean I have to make sure no one else does. Are there people who make religious scams using magic? Yes, but do not make the ignorant generalization that they are representative of all of this genre of magic and missionary venture.


C

Well said.

Something interesting, you should watch the whole thing. It's Penn talking about a gift he was given, but he says some interesting things in there about sharing ones beliefs. And for those who don't know, Penn is a firm Atheist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

 

[Cliff|Bumgardner]

Well said.

Something interesting, you should watch the whole thing. It's Penn talking about a gift he was given, but he says some interesting things in there about sharing ones beliefs. And for those who don't know, Penn is a firm Atheist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

I think Penn is BEYOND firm in anything he believes, haha

C

 

[Justin.Morris]

I think Penn is BEYOND firm in anything he believes, haha

C

lol very true

 

[Brakkiss]

I've stayed out of the fray, watching where this thread has gone - well, I guess I'll jump into the action now.

Perhaps the threadstarter ("Dave") was a bit too....bold with his original post(s). It makes perfect sense that it has incited the ire of the..."outspoken" members here.

I guess what I find somewhat reprehensible is that some members have taken it upon themselves to use this thread as their idealogical soapbox. Granted, the threadstarter provoked the tirade, it is still ultimately discouraging.

We are never all going to agree with each other on MANY things besides religion: Some people here like Ellusionist, some people here HATE Ellusionist. Brian Tudor, for example, has obsessed fanb0is and vitriolic haters.

It's one thing to discuss or debate the merits of a teacher or company or product. It's another thing entirely to deliberately insult one person's or many peoples' belief system.

Neither side (faithful or faithless) should be participating in such distasteful banter. It's damaging to the community and only proves to draw divisive lines amongst us.

I implore every person who has participated in this thread and read my post to think twice about the things they say here and the manner in which they say them.

Can we please have rational and respectful discussion here? It exists nearly everywhere else on these boards, so why is it that the "religion thread" has invoked such disgraceful attitudes?

If you disagree with using magic to share ANY kind of faith or religion, that's completely fine - but please share your opinion absent of malice or condescension.

In essence....can't we all just...get along?