Daniel Madison is a thief?

[Bijlogg]

Well said samuel, very well.

Tom

 

[lemonAde]

I'm with Jay on this one...

Sure, Daniel is a cool guy and he's got some good stuff. I'd be fine with it if he'd have used the tricks in personal routines and stuff like that.

But claim them as his own?
As a magician, I think that's highly disrespectful not only to Jay, but to Magic itself. Doing something like this now, when he's 'rising', could ruin his entire career.

Also, it appears that, some people trying to defend Daniel defends him by saying that they don't like Jay. It doesn't make any sense at all as it really doesn't matter who he's stealing from. What would you say if he was stealing from Daniel Garcia? Or Dai Vernon?

That wouldn't be as acceptable, would it?

Stealing effects from ANY magician is unacceptable, in my opinion. And you shouldn't say it's "OK" just because Madison is "cool".

For that reason, I'm leaving out my personal opinions of Jay.

 

[SHANE BLACK]

Guys lets try to refrain from attacking anyone here please. Clearly this thread is contreversal and meant to be biased by the name of the thread. Jay Sankey is a Great Magician with a style of his own and I respect that and DM is a Great Magician as we'll but that doesn't help anyone here. I think the topic in hand is more about theft not about their skill so let's please stick to the topic.

Shane

 

[JoeCarr]

what i seem to see is people missing out on the point...

HE'S TAKEN THE EFFECTS DOWN!!!

sure, he came up with some BS, and sure his tricks were very similar, but at the end of the day, theyve gone and that should be the end of it, its happened before and it will happen again....

game over

 

[JimmyP]

Here's what I saw a whole bunch of:

"It's ok to steal as long as I like the person who's stealing and dislike the person he's stealing from." Now that's all well and good when you talk about the altruism of Robin Hood, but that's not what this is about.

A theft is a theft, and if this is in fact true, Madison is not stealing for the betterment of the general magic community, but rather for his own gain, and therefore doesn't achieve that Prince of Thieves status.

I don't know all the facts in this matter, so I'm not in a position to say whether or not Sankey's accusations are true. Regardless, it seems like most of the people who hop to Daniel's defense aren't defending whether or not he stole, but rather accepting that he stole and saying that it's ok.

Theft is wrong. The fact that it's been around forever doesn't justify it by any means, and for Sankey to be upset about it is completely understandable. It doesn't matter if you like him or not, he feels he was wronged and responded appropriately. Madison's response, if it is accurately stated by Jay, was definitely and absolutely a copout.

Finally someone speaks right!

I cant believe the attitude of some people here and the excuses given in order to defend Daniel.

I dont like Sankey's style either and i like watching Daniel performing, but that doesnt mean that it is ok to steal!!!

I have read about this in another forum (i think it was magic cafe) and i searched a bit about the effects mentioned from Sankey. The man is absolutely right.

 

[caruso]

this actually hurt me, i really looked up to daniel and respected him...
jay sankey too, greatest minds of magic at the time...

so bad... im heart broken, more like sleight broken

 

[DannyT]

Tricks get stolen all the time from books. I know that E is coming out with a trick soon that I already know how to do because I read it in a book I have, that comes with 199 other tricks, that I can guarantee I paid less for the whole book than what E wants for that trick on a DVD.

Bottom line is it's wrong, but there's really nothing we can do but argue how wrong it is. How would you feel if you created an effect and someone stole it. I'm guessing pretty cruddy.

We don't know if Daniel Madison really took these tricks from him. He could have just thought of it, and turns out it was already made and didn't know it. It all can be just coincidental.

Are these tricks exactly the same(method) or is it just the same trick done differently? I can't tell you how many card through window effects I've seen.

 

[trashmanf]

DAN MADISON = BUSTED!!!! ahhhhhhh

that is really hilarious, he doesn't consider himself a magician but a "visual artist". what a joke

 

[2ndDeal]

If you invent some effect and plan to publish it, you should first search other method and variations of that effect. So, Daniel Madison 's duty was to be familiar with Sankey's effects. And then, if the method is different enough to be published, other originators should be mentioned. So, if Madison independently invented his effects, he still should mention Sankey. And if idea is from someone else, original inventor should be at least credited.
I can't understand what is so great in Daniel Madison that he should be protected in this case.

But, our information is limited, so we cannot judge for sure.

 

[PjPinsonnault]

What I'm seeing here, with the exception of the few who've pretty much said what I'm about to say, is a prime example of what is known as Confirmation Bias. Basically, this is our tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.

This reminds me of the Spygate situation in football. Being a New Englander, I have a lot of friends who are gung-ho for the Patriots, so much so that they don't care if the Pats cheated or not. They think it's all blown out of proportion. Yet ask anyone who roots for any of the teams the Pats might have cheated and you'll hear a totally different tune.

We don't like to hear that the people we admire, respect, and look up to might have done, or be doing something we find wrong or offensive. We'll come up with defenses that don't really make a lot of sense like "everyone does it, so who cares?"

Think of this: if Daniel Madison's newsletter circulated and said that some company was releasing effects that were very similar to his without his permission, what would you say then? Woudl you defend him and say he's right to let the community know? Or that he's being a baby and should just suck it up?

Daniel did the right thing by removing the items. But Jay did the right thing by standing up for himself.

Pj

 

[Deryn]

The whole "the tricks aren't available on his website anymore" arguement doesn't make any sense. What people are trying to say is that they WERE on there.. meaning.. they shouldn't have been in the first place... that is IF he in fact stole them.

There are so many similar tricks out there.. keep in mind that the passage said "bares a striking resemblence"... that doesn't mean someone can have their own method.

I personally respect DM a lot. I love what he does. I too respect Jay Sankey. Everything else is speculation...

 

[ThrallMind]

It's funny how this conversation wouldn't even be an issue had websites like E and T11 not existed (not saying I dislike them, I love T11 ^^). If you see an idea, learn how to do it, and claim it as your own, thats wrong. If you make an effect, that you figured out on your own time, you should be able to market it. Otherwise, as magicians, that means we are putting legality on someones creativity and imagination? Magic is all about growth.

This entire post is based off of what the hurt party wrote, which by its very nature is biased. I think until we hear more about the situation and/or Daniels side any further bantering has no backing whatsoever.

"bares a striking resemblence"... that doesn't mean someone can have their own method.

I really hope you meant "That doesn't mean someone can't have their own method."

-ThrallMind

 

[b.boulton]

Guys you are all assuming that DM has done something wrong.
We must assume him INNOCENT untill proven otherwise.

Does anyone have both the effects from JS and DM?

Maybe we should compare the methods and general purpose of the tricks before we go further. It could just be 2 tricks that are the same with totally different methods.

We must wait for a response from DM before we go further....


-Brad

 

[drorange]

ok here is a video of the Blackpool Effect

it has similarities but it is a different trick daniel madisons the card is taken out of the deck and there isn't the ending

 

[Cyrus]

I rest my case.


For an Underground Magic Epicenter dedicated to furthering magic...this is just bloody sad.


Rabid

Yep, I see what you are talking about, I couldn't agree with you more...

-Cyrus

 

[..:Z:..]

If you invent some effect and plan to publish it, you should first search other method and variations of that effect. So, Daniel Madison 's duty was to be familiar with Sankey's effects. And then, if the method is different enough to be published, other originators should be mentioned. So, if Madison independently invented his effects, he still should mention Sankey. And if idea is from someone else, original inventor should be at least credited.
I can't understand what is so great in Daniel Madison that he should be protected in this case.

But, our information is limited, so we cannot judge for sure.

If I were playing around with something and I claim originatly to it but I wanted to make sure it was original, I would have to do some research, right? That's just it, it is so fregin' difficult to try to find anything specific in magic seeing how well the secrets are guarded. I would literally have to buy dozens of books, dvds, materials, etc, to figure out whether someone invented something BEFORE ME or not. I can't just google it up!

I believe I came up with an original handling of the DL (I am not speaking hypothetically) and I claim it to have invented because my creation process was not swayed by ANYTHING; it was completely legit (of course, no one will believe me).

I am soooooo not up-to-date with magic (isn't that apparent?) . I only heard of this Daniel Madison fellow a few months ago when I discovered sites like T11. I just buy books and materials and just study from then. I'm so wrapped up in my own material I don't eve bother reading about other magicians and their bio's and whatever.

However, these are intellectual properties and not one magician can claim ownership or patent a certain movement, idea, etc. But he could claim that he found it FIRST and by doing that would make him look like the actual "creator" of that idea as, claiming you have invented something someone else invented FIRST wouldn't make you look very creative, or ethical. It would coincidental. But coincidences HAPPEN. Just not as often as you'd expect from the magic community.

Another person can claim he found that exact same idea (gesture, ....Whatever) too as long as he's being legit about it. But he can't claim that he's the only founder because the guy the other professional magician on the internet already claimed it before he did. So, yah. You invented something but someone already did it before you so, claiming that you discovered it without this in mind will make yo look VERY unethical and everyone magician would probably shun you from their community.

It's like someone claiming they've invented an effect exactly (or similar to) Indecent right when Indecent is published by W:H.

What IS UNETHICAL is to create something awfully similar to Jay's magic with him (and his material in mind) and claim it as his own. That's unethical.

Oh well. Daniel removed the forgery-material from his website so...

However, I did think that extremely bogus, "I'm a visual artist..." cop-off was extremely lame. I mean, seriously, it says "illusionist" and "cardist" on his website. Isn't illusionist just a fancy term for magician?

..:Z:..

 

[Close-Up Expert]

Well I just skimmed through the first couple of pages and will say this....

By taking the products off his site, he's doing the right thing and admitting guilt. If in fact they were that different or whatever, I guarantee that I would have put up more of a fight to prove they're not based off of his, etc.

Secondly...the longer I have to wait to hear from the DM, the more I agree with what Jay is saying and the worse it's looking for Daniel. If this is what magic is coming from, it's truly a said thing to say the least. But, I'll hold off on carving my opinion in stone until I hear his side....

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Brad Henderson]

In my opinion, I couldn't care less. Daniel Madison's a fantastic magician / visual artist (whatever) and whether he "steals" his ideas from other people doesn't bother me. Magic is all about inspiration.

Clearly, you have never had an idea that you worked on for years taken from you...you might feel differently.

If I came to your house, and your nice TV inspired me, but I couldn't get one on my own, is it ok for me to take it from you and do with it as I please?

It's easy to be cavalier when you get to benefit from someone else's work. But think what it might be like if you saw your bread and butter lifted from you?

I do not know anything about this "case" in particular. I am speaking only in regard to the issue of theft and its rationalization.

And if you still don't care, maybe this will change your mind:

Do you like having brilliant magicians share their great work? Well, if they realize that all they can hope for is to see their ideas taken, without payment, without credit, and without permission - guess what: they STOP sharing.

This is NOT a hypothetical. It happens all the time. It's why most magicians will never get to see the best magic out there - because the people who actually use it don't want to have it lifted and receive no support from the community.

When you choose not to care, you choose not to support the truly creative in this field. In the long run, it will hurt you more than it does them.

Just some food for thought,

Brad Henderson

 

[Brad Henderson]

If I were playing around with something and I claim originatly to it but I wanted to make sure it was original, I would have to do some research, right? That's just it, it is so fregin' difficult to try to find anything specific in magic seeing how well the secrets are guarded. I would literally have to buy dozens of books, dvds, materials, etc, to figure out whether someone invented something BEFORE ME or not. I can't just google it up!


..:Z:..

This is SO wrong on so many levels. It is not difficult at all, if you have taken the time to invest in your education. If you care, isn't it worth the investment? If you don't, then do you expect us to believe that you truly took the time to come up with something revolutionary?

Further, If you haven't invested in your education, then the chances you are coming up with something never before thought of by people who have spent years studying the art in depth is slim.

But so what if it IS hard? Who said life is easy. Who said you should be able to have anything you want with one web search?

In fact, on another thread, I detailed (for you I believe) and entire method for researching an idea. Completely do-able, but yes it does take work. (And more than a dozen books - when you get to a couple of hundred, you might have a core library in place. But if you care enough about magic to try and advance the art, is this too much of an investment?)

Do you expect us to believe someone came up with a revolutionary idea without work? Seems to me "work-ethic" is part and parcel of the equation.

I don't want to sound like I am attacking you. These arguments are directed to the general "you" not you personally. But they speak to the bigger picture:

If you care about your art, you will want to have a firm foundation in it. Once you have that foundation, the initial steps of research become easy. And with just a little effort - admittedly more than a google search - a series student can uncover a lot of information about almost any idea to help place their work in an historical context. (And you might learn a bunch of stuff you never knew existed in the process!!!!)

Brad Henderson

 

[waynehouchin]

Greetings! I just want to let you guys know that I just got off the phone with Jay Sankey. Daniel Madison is self taught & as such he HAS created some ideas that have been out before. Daniel has already removed the effects that are similar to Sankey's.

Jay is one of the most prolific & brilliant creators of our time as well as a huge inspiration to many of us (including me). Jay, like many creators, has been intentionally ripped off time & time again & as such it is easy to understand his e/mail.

I've personally spent the last week & a half with Daniel - I can tell you that he is a brilliant thinker, a great performer, and one hell of a nice guy - and from what I've seen as well as the conversations that we've had - he would NEVER intentionally mis-represent another's effect as his own.

Have a great day & we'll talk to you guys soon!