Now THIS MAGICIAN gets it - I couldn't have said it better, or more concise.
Welcome to the uppercrust - you are one of us.
Do you want to fool 98% or 100% of the time?
- Thread starter Morgan B
- Start date
Now THIS MAGICIAN gets it - I couldn't have said it better, or more concise.
Welcome to the uppercrust - you are one of us.
Exactly!!
JTMorris - I understand what you are saying too - but my audiences don't consist of the creators of magic, we are talking lay audiences. Keokesilverfang said the rest perfectly. Thanks.
Very nice post, however does this lie solely within magic and are there some corners that could have been cut. I was watching 13 steps to mentalism dvd with Osterlind and a spectator came up with the idea that he wrote the information after the actual effect. Used a swami gimmick.
However there are a few exceptions, he did a high number of predictions for the sake of the dvd which wasn't the smartest thing to do performance wise. He did the same effect for her, but used an entirely different method which proved whatever method she had devised to be completely useless. This changed the attitude of the entire show proving that what he did before was real and solidified it.
In magic, you can't really show a similar effect without possibly exposing something or having a lesser impact on the audience since it is similar to the previous one.
Are there any exceptions to the rule? Perhaps changing the presentation could eliminate the possibility of anybody coming up with an explanation. Just to spark conversation, I agreed with most of your post.
However there are a few exceptions, he did a high number of predictions for the sake of the dvd which wasn't the smartest thing to do performance wise. He did the same effect for her, but used an entirely different method which proved whatever method she had devised to be completely useless. This changed the attitude of the entire show proving that what he did before was real and solidified it.
In magic, you can't really show a similar effect without possibly exposing something or having a lesser impact on the audience since it is similar to the previous one.
Are there any exceptions to the rule? Perhaps changing the presentation could eliminate the possibility of anybody coming up with an explanation. Just to spark conversation, I agreed with most of your post.
Did you take the test on-line? haha - where will you lead them...into virgin only territory?
Then, quite simply, this thread is not for you. This thread is for the people who are dedicated to improving their magic - to extend beyond the 98%. As someone said earlier - perfection is not attainable, so why not aim for the 100% instead of the 98%? It's about what I wrote in one of my earlier threads - aim high.
Maybe I'll never be as good as Tamariz and Ortiz, but I want to be better than I am, so I aim high.
If you don't want to do that, that's fine, this thread is just not for you. For the rest of us who want to be better, then this thread IS for you.
I never claim to know everyone. I claim that in the cardistry community, too many don't perform. Not that everyone doesn't perform. You're grabbing at shadows. But this is getting off topic.
This is one of the best discussions I've taken part of on theory11 thus far. Great discussion Morgician. Great thoughts Prae. Prae, I swear there are times where you are 2 different people. I'm really digging your insight lately.
I don't agree that if you're not striving to be your absolute best, you should quit. I feel there is room in this art for people with every level of commitment, dedication, passion and drive. Maybe right now there are people who aren't to the level your suggesting people should go, but who's to say something won't spark within them that will fuel their dedication? It's hard for most to believe that they have the potential to be one of the greats, so they settle for less, mediocrity. They just need to have 3D vision. A dream, backed up by discipline backed up by determination. It just takes time for most to see this.
Let me rephrase one of my earlier posts:
Maybe egotistical wasn't the right word. What I mean is, it doesn't bother me if I don't change someone's life with my magic. It's not my goal at this point in time. If it happens as a positive side effect, great. My goal right now is to get experience in performing and to entertain. If someone remembers something I performed for them years from now, great. But it doesn't bother me if they don't.. I'm not going to stop performing effects like Tagged by rich sanders because someone might figure it out. I agree with Morgician's overall message. I agree, you should strive to be your best, and we should always set our goals high, almost so high that we nearly think we cannot accomplish. It's ok to fall short of your goals because you can always readjust your goals after you try, fail and adjust. As of right now, where I'm at in my magic, I'm ok with fooling the 98%, I'd love to fool the 100%, but I'm just not there yet. I agree that going the extra mile, makes a huge difference. What's the difference between water boiling and water not boiling? 1 degree. You might be performing your magic at 211 degrees, but if you just peform magic at just 1 degree higher, you'll be boiling! I'm just not at that level yet and it will probably be decades, I'm sure, before I get there.
I don't agree that if you're not striving to be your absolute best, you should quit. I feel there is room in this art for people with every level of commitment, dedication, passion and drive. Maybe right now there are people who aren't to the level your suggesting people should go, but who's to say something won't spark within them that will fuel their dedication? It's hard for most to believe that they have the potential to be one of the greats, so they settle for less, mediocrity. They just need to have 3D vision. A dream, backed up by discipline backed up by determination. It just takes time for most to see this.
Let me rephrase one of my earlier posts:
Maybe egotistical wasn't the right word. What I mean is, it doesn't bother me if I don't change someone's life with my magic. It's not my goal at this point in time. If it happens as a positive side effect, great. My goal right now is to get experience in performing and to entertain. If someone remembers something I performed for them years from now, great. But it doesn't bother me if they don't.. I'm not going to stop performing effects like Tagged by rich sanders because someone might figure it out. I agree with Morgician's overall message. I agree, you should strive to be your best, and we should always set our goals high, almost so high that we nearly think we cannot accomplish. It's ok to fall short of your goals because you can always readjust your goals after you try, fail and adjust. As of right now, where I'm at in my magic, I'm ok with fooling the 98%, I'd love to fool the 100%, but I'm just not there yet. I agree that going the extra mile, makes a huge difference. What's the difference between water boiling and water not boiling? 1 degree. You might be performing your magic at 211 degrees, but if you just peform magic at just 1 degree higher, you'll be boiling! I'm just not at that level yet and it will probably be decades, I'm sure, before I get there.
Thanks JetEyeNight,
I want to clarify - I am not trying to motivate people to be THE best, I am trying to get them to be THEIR best. I am not a "named" magicians, at least not to many - but I consider myself a high end magician. Not because of the sleights I do, or effects I know - but because of my approach to creating a magic experience...and I am STILL striving for more. Really, the focus is on creating a discipline where people can look at magic with a critical eye, and understand why some effects are constructed better than others - why some flop and some are on top.
As for your explanation on your prior post - I will say this:
If your goal is not to leave a lasting impression with your craft, why do magic? I am not looking to change people's lives...I am looking to leave an impression of our time together. Have you ever had anyone hear you are a magician, then say, "OH, I saw a magician once, he did this" - followed by an outrageously inaccurate retelling of an effect you know didn't go down that way - but in their minds - A MOMENT IN TIME - SO AMAZING, they felt obligated to tell you and embellish about?
YOU are this story - if you like it or not - you are. How do you want the story to be told? Magic is a profound experience for those not in the know - it CAN change people's lives, but that isn't the goal, at least for me. The goal is this - if I am going to be a story, I want it to be LEGENDARY - I want it to be worth telling, and hearing about.
JetEyeNight - you seem to think there is a choice to be made - between experience performing and entertaining, and creating a memorable experience. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I see them as a partnership. However, I would be willing to bet cash that if you were more strict about striving to fool ALL - and getting your 98% for free with these effects - that your magic would be MORE entertaining.
You use the analogy of boiling water - but if boliling water is the goal...then, you need to strive for that degree...if it is not...then why are you boiling water?
Look at it this way - it is kinda of a shoot for the moon, settle for the stars concept.
When you write a test, or learn something - do you set your goals at lower than perfect? Today, I am going to get a good mark on this test - but my goal is just short of perfect. When people set lower goals - they usually achieve them - so what does that mean? Like the Olympic Athlete that goes to win SILVER?!
There are bad effects out there - some effects will fool forever, as no out can be discovered by "that guy" or any other. However, if your effect has holes in it - don't think "that guy" is a heckler, because your material can't withstand scrutiny. If you magic has holes - you will fall into them, eventually, and when the show flops because of it...well, you can say with pride.
"Look audience - I don't try to fool you all, just the easy ones. So, even though I didn't create the illusion of magic, feel good that you are in the top percentage of critical thinkers. Truthfully, I am just focused on the performing and entertainment part of my show...if you get fooled, that is a bonus. Try not to think so much".
However, I want you to realize - your JOB - at it's most BASIC - is to FOOL - just like a musician's is to play the right notes. Sure, both art forms take much more - but if you can't do the basics all the time...well, then what are you? In my books - not a magician, at least not a professional one that loves the craft.
Oddly - this is not just a case of what you know - but what effects you are doing, and how deceptive they are.
Glad you like the discussion - Prae is a GREAT asset to this forum and this thread. Thanks for contributing.
I want to clarify - I am not trying to motivate people to be THE best, I am trying to get them to be THEIR best. I am not a "named" magicians, at least not to many - but I consider myself a high end magician. Not because of the sleights I do, or effects I know - but because of my approach to creating a magic experience...and I am STILL striving for more. Really, the focus is on creating a discipline where people can look at magic with a critical eye, and understand why some effects are constructed better than others - why some flop and some are on top.
As for your explanation on your prior post - I will say this:
If your goal is not to leave a lasting impression with your craft, why do magic? I am not looking to change people's lives...I am looking to leave an impression of our time together. Have you ever had anyone hear you are a magician, then say, "OH, I saw a magician once, he did this" - followed by an outrageously inaccurate retelling of an effect you know didn't go down that way - but in their minds - A MOMENT IN TIME - SO AMAZING, they felt obligated to tell you and embellish about?
YOU are this story - if you like it or not - you are. How do you want the story to be told? Magic is a profound experience for those not in the know - it CAN change people's lives, but that isn't the goal, at least for me. The goal is this - if I am going to be a story, I want it to be LEGENDARY - I want it to be worth telling, and hearing about.
JetEyeNight - you seem to think there is a choice to be made - between experience performing and entertaining, and creating a memorable experience. I don't see them as mutually exclusive. I see them as a partnership. However, I would be willing to bet cash that if you were more strict about striving to fool ALL - and getting your 98% for free with these effects - that your magic would be MORE entertaining.
You use the analogy of boiling water - but if boliling water is the goal...then, you need to strive for that degree...if it is not...then why are you boiling water?
Look at it this way - it is kinda of a shoot for the moon, settle for the stars concept.
When you write a test, or learn something - do you set your goals at lower than perfect? Today, I am going to get a good mark on this test - but my goal is just short of perfect. When people set lower goals - they usually achieve them - so what does that mean? Like the Olympic Athlete that goes to win SILVER?!
There are bad effects out there - some effects will fool forever, as no out can be discovered by "that guy" or any other. However, if your effect has holes in it - don't think "that guy" is a heckler, because your material can't withstand scrutiny. If you magic has holes - you will fall into them, eventually, and when the show flops because of it...well, you can say with pride.
"Look audience - I don't try to fool you all, just the easy ones. So, even though I didn't create the illusion of magic, feel good that you are in the top percentage of critical thinkers. Truthfully, I am just focused on the performing and entertainment part of my show...if you get fooled, that is a bonus. Try not to think so much".
However, I want you to realize - your JOB - at it's most BASIC - is to FOOL - just like a musician's is to play the right notes. Sure, both art forms take much more - but if you can't do the basics all the time...well, then what are you? In my books - not a magician, at least not a professional one that loves the craft.
Oddly - this is not just a case of what you know - but what effects you are doing, and how deceptive they are.
Glad you like the discussion - Prae is a GREAT asset to this forum and this thread. Thanks for contributing.
Hmmm, I can see points to both arguments. Let me get my simile on for a second:
Condoms only work around 98% of the time, which is pretty trustworthy, but if it doesn't work... Uh oh. So no one completely trusts them.
However, the only contraceptive with a 100% success rate is abstinence, but nobody really likes that either....
This may take some time to think over....
Condoms only work around 98% of the time, which is pretty trustworthy, but if it doesn't work... Uh oh. So no one completely trusts them.
However, the only contraceptive with a 100% success rate is abstinence, but nobody really likes that either....
This may take some time to think over....
this is a difficult topic.
OP,
Do the audiences you refer to include randoms who've gone onto youtube and looked up magic stuff? if so, does that mean you would neglect using, say, a double lift in the context of an ACR?
OP,
Do the audiences you refer to include randoms who've gone onto youtube and looked up magic stuff? if so, does that mean you would neglect using, say, a double lift in the context of an ACR?
Thanks for the explanation Morgician, I've never thought about it that way. Thanks for helping me see the error of my ways. Time for some goal setting...
Sadly - we can't account for exposure. Again - the goal is not to fool every person in the world. As, SOME of the information IS out there. However, most won't now how to look it up. Recently, I met a group of kids from a highschool. One kid blurted out, during an effect that used a double, I know how that is done - so I changed to top changes - and he then slumped back in his chair.
The point is two fold:
1 - Learning various methods to achieve the same result can come in handy - more tools, better arsenal.
2- I can't fool those in the know - I prepare my show for lay audiences. I want to fool the hardest lay person - not magician or those that are informed.
That being said - I don't jam silks into TT because of the common knowledge that exists of that procedure - but using it for a bill change or salt vanish is never questioned. By the way, Night at the Museum with Ben Stiller - he totally exposes this concept. Sad really, all for a gag.
Anyhow - hope that answers your question. 100% of the critical thinkers - not the informed. As, the effects can be strong enough to fool them both, but truthfully, magicians don't pay the bills - lay audiences do.
Morgician,
An inspiration as always.
I was skeptical at the first post, but when you cleared up that magicians were not included in your goals I do agree.
I have a 145ish IQ (higher online, lower in person 145 average) so yay 2%!
Probably what drew me into magic was my ability to pick up on moves and contrive methods. I also entertained quite a lot with stories between my family and my friends so the two abilities meshed together.
I'm currently trying to find and practice the effects that you are talking about. Impossible both in the moment and after some one has thought about it, which also leads into presentation of certain effects.
Fun little anecdote:
I work with a hobbyist magician who is pretty good at what he does. I share a few simple things with him so he can do the effects he does better and with more ease, as he doesn't give methods away, and is still floored by some of my simple tricks that use moves he is aware of; the double lift for example.
Thanks for the post, can't wait for the next one.
An inspiration as always.
I was skeptical at the first post, but when you cleared up that magicians were not included in your goals I do agree.
I have a 145ish IQ (higher online, lower in person 145 average) so yay 2%!
Probably what drew me into magic was my ability to pick up on moves and contrive methods. I also entertained quite a lot with stories between my family and my friends so the two abilities meshed together.
I'm currently trying to find and practice the effects that you are talking about. Impossible both in the moment and after some one has thought about it, which also leads into presentation of certain effects.
Fun little anecdote:
I work with a hobbyist magician who is pretty good at what he does. I share a few simple things with him so he can do the effects he does better and with more ease, as he doesn't give methods away, and is still floored by some of my simple tricks that use moves he is aware of; the double lift for example.
Thanks for the post, can't wait for the next one.
I understand where you're coming from, and wholly agree with your first post.
I'm not sure I can agree with your example, however, there is a very fine line. You say you don't prepare your shows for those informed, and surely no matter how common the knowlede, would not the audience knowing about the thumb tip make them informed?
Take for example the french drop. Everyone knows about it, would that be common knowledge, or would the entire audience just be informed?
I see where you're coming though, people know that a methods of holding coins/cards in your hands exist, but still are taken off guard by palming.
I can still get away with the french drop depending on how I've conditioned my audience, no matter how "common" the knowledge is.
I thiink you answered your own objection TheatreHead. People knowing about a prop doesn't make them "in the know" it just makes them aware. WHen I say informed people - I mean those that study magic.
People know, or think they know, about certain principles, but then are fooled by them.
Anyhow, thanks for posting.
People know, or think they know, about certain principles, but then are fooled by them.
Anyhow, thanks for posting.
I see I have come into this thread late, but I can narrate one of my recent experiences. I recently performed a few tricks for my cousin. She is a very analytical person and she was watching me very closely trying to figure things out. I decided to try different tricks with different principles and see the reactions.
1) I tried a trick using a one way deck. She did not figure out the secret even though I let her examine the cards. However, she convinced herself that I must have peeked the card or done something fast when she wasn't looking and I could not really convince her otherwise.
2) I tried one based on a mathematical principle. I tried to hide the math principle by using some time misdirection. She still came close to figuring it out (she is very analytical) and I did not argue my point.
3) I did a 10 card poker deal which went quite well. She was fooled by this one and asked me to repeat it (I politely declined and moved on to the next one).
4) I finally did an effect from a shuffled deck (I used some basic sleights - a quick cull and some overhand shuffle work). This was the one which totally took her by surprise. She was trying desperately to figure this one out, but she simply couldn't fit a consistent explanation into the result. In other words, she was trying to come up with some kind of solution, but her solutions were impossible and she realized that. I was quite pleased with the way this went.
I'm guessing you want your spectators to react the way my cousin reacted to number 4. I too am working to see if I can replicate this regularly.
1) I tried a trick using a one way deck. She did not figure out the secret even though I let her examine the cards. However, she convinced herself that I must have peeked the card or done something fast when she wasn't looking and I could not really convince her otherwise.
2) I tried one based on a mathematical principle. I tried to hide the math principle by using some time misdirection. She still came close to figuring it out (she is very analytical) and I did not argue my point.
3) I did a 10 card poker deal which went quite well. She was fooled by this one and asked me to repeat it (I politely declined and moved on to the next one).
4) I finally did an effect from a shuffled deck (I used some basic sleights - a quick cull and some overhand shuffle work). This was the one which totally took her by surprise. She was trying desperately to figure this one out, but she simply couldn't fit a consistent explanation into the result. In other words, she was trying to come up with some kind of solution, but her solutions were impossible and she realized that. I was quite pleased with the way this went.
I'm guessing you want your spectators to react the way my cousin reacted to number 4. I too am working to see if I can replicate this regularly.
Descartes - thanks for sharing - so let me ask you...
NO insult intended:
Do you know what it was - or how to choose magic or make your magic - so you can get more experiences like your 4th example?
If you are unsure - let's disuss it in this thread - as I am sure you are NOT the only one.
So - any questions or advice?
NO insult intended:
Do you know what it was - or how to choose magic or make your magic - so you can get more experiences like your 4th example?
If you are unsure - let's disuss it in this thread - as I am sure you are NOT the only one.
So - any questions or advice?
Hi Morgician,
I have been learning magic only for the last 10 months. I am very new at this and i'm still learning lots of stuff. I'm still not sure about how to consistently get reactions like in my 4th example.
In my opinion, the first trick I presented should have been a strong one. Unfortunately, my cousin somehow convinced herself that I had peeked and it lost its effect. Even though the solution was false, the effect was still gone. I think it would have been much stronger if I had emphasized the fairness of the trick. I think that was my mistake.
The mathematical trick is a different story. I'm still trying to make these so called "self working" tricks look magical. Sometimes, the procedural nature of these tricks gives it away. I think the ideal mathematical trick is one where the procedure doesn't seem to affect anything. If you can add any insights about this, I'm ready to listen
.I believe the last trick was successful because I took the trouble to convince her that everything was fair. I allowed her to shuffle, I let her examine the deck closely and I culled cards on the offbeat. The handling was simple and direct, so there is no suspicion that something underhand is happening.
Overall, I think working FASDIU makes tricks strong because you can remove simple false solutions (like trick decks and prearrangements and duplicate cards) and leave the spectator with no explanation.
Descartes,
I think most of what you said is on the right track - and giving advice on this...well, it could be many books - and IT IS! However, I would say this.
We have many phases in our magic - one of the first phases is that we just focus on fooling. When you do this early on, it is out of survival and success is fooling. However, as you get more confident in your magic and methods, you will realize that this is only the first step. One that you should move past as best you can, because what you focus on, is what the audience will focus on.
When you can get good enough to worry about entertaining, not just fooling, you will occupy your onlookers with more than just a puzzle. I think you are accurate to say that some of your stuff played better, however, when you do something in the future that has reason - and isn't "just a trick", but perhaps has a presentation that the audience can attach to - then the question or focus won't be around method - but the entertainment value.
Also, as you grow in magic and you see certain things "not work" - ask yourself why. Why did this play better - or why was it so easy for the audience to "solve"? Can I make it more deceptive?
For the most part - I think what you said about the weaknesses in what you did, are probably true, at least with your ability and knowledge at this point. Math tricks can often look like math tricks - I would recommend Juan Tamariz' Verbal Magic and/or Card Colege LIGHT or LIGHTER by Roberto Giobbi to get a better selection and understanding of self workers.
Outside of that - it sounds like your Cousin was focused on method. You will meet many like this. I find it to be a "YOU" vs "ME" approach - how in the future will you get your audience on YOUR side? I repeat - Presentation - meaningful words to add to WHY you are doing what you are doing - because if it doesn't have a reason...then the reason is...YOU ARE TRYING TO FOOL ME. My job as an audience member is to not let that happen easily.
Another reason I find that people use "false outs" is that they have seen "something" - they don't know what, but they saw a move. They give an explanation to what they have seen, and as it has been said...but I think Vernon, "If they see something is going on, it is bad as knowing EXACTLY what is going on" - which brings us back to my point.
Magic has to appear moveless in the audiences mind.
Sorry this was a bit rambling and repititve...but I hope it helps, and you understand the value I am trying to point out.
Feel free to ask for clarification, or share more. In the end, experience is king - you will figure it out.
I think most of what you said is on the right track - and giving advice on this...well, it could be many books - and IT IS! However, I would say this.
We have many phases in our magic - one of the first phases is that we just focus on fooling. When you do this early on, it is out of survival and success is fooling. However, as you get more confident in your magic and methods, you will realize that this is only the first step. One that you should move past as best you can, because what you focus on, is what the audience will focus on.
When you can get good enough to worry about entertaining, not just fooling, you will occupy your onlookers with more than just a puzzle. I think you are accurate to say that some of your stuff played better, however, when you do something in the future that has reason - and isn't "just a trick", but perhaps has a presentation that the audience can attach to - then the question or focus won't be around method - but the entertainment value.
Also, as you grow in magic and you see certain things "not work" - ask yourself why. Why did this play better - or why was it so easy for the audience to "solve"? Can I make it more deceptive?
For the most part - I think what you said about the weaknesses in what you did, are probably true, at least with your ability and knowledge at this point. Math tricks can often look like math tricks - I would recommend Juan Tamariz' Verbal Magic and/or Card Colege LIGHT or LIGHTER by Roberto Giobbi to get a better selection and understanding of self workers.
Outside of that - it sounds like your Cousin was focused on method. You will meet many like this. I find it to be a "YOU" vs "ME" approach - how in the future will you get your audience on YOUR side? I repeat - Presentation - meaningful words to add to WHY you are doing what you are doing - because if it doesn't have a reason...then the reason is...YOU ARE TRYING TO FOOL ME. My job as an audience member is to not let that happen easily.
Another reason I find that people use "false outs" is that they have seen "something" - they don't know what, but they saw a move. They give an explanation to what they have seen, and as it has been said...but I think Vernon, "If they see something is going on, it is bad as knowing EXACTLY what is going on" - which brings us back to my point.
Magic has to appear moveless in the audiences mind.
Sorry this was a bit rambling and repititve...but I hope it helps, and you understand the value I am trying to point out.
Feel free to ask for clarification, or share more. In the end, experience is king - you will figure it out.