Famous Magicians not connecting?

Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
Well, Hello

There is this thought that has been scratching my mind for a long time.
People on these forums, experienced magicians (so it seems) are always telling people to use interesting patter, connect with an audience on a deeper level, tell some interesting stories throughout an effect. It will change peoples lives, and way they perceive magic and life and all that... And I completely agree btw.

BUT. When you look at all these live performances of all these famous magicians, specially in the DVD's that they sell, well... They have nothing of those things. Just watch Wayne Houchin, Daniel Garcia, Aaron Fisher, Richard Sanders etc. It is either "Watch...*magical gesture*... and the bill penetrates the rubber band" or "If you cut the deck... look.... the kings are now closer to eachother" and such...
For that kind of patter, other members would be decapitated around here.

This topic will draw a couple of more questions that I have ready, for every your answer, but lets just discuss this one first. Why are we telling everybody to build their patter and story and engage and all that, when all these famous magicians don't do that. It will be like someone has told me that throwing ball out of court for no reason is good, but then I never see Michael Jordan do it.
 

Bizzaro

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2007
464
10
Vegas
www.smappdooda.com
If you are going off DVD's, usually they want the effect to be as direct as possible AND they don't want YOU stealing their personal patter that works for them.

I personally just say be yourself and find your groove. You don't HAVE to connect in that "Paul Harris" kinda way a lot of the guys try to push. Just be a real person and not a used car salesman.
 
Jul 19, 2009
167
0
ahaha great statement bizzaro. i agree 100% they want you to create your own way of presenting the effect. your own patter. your own sense of creativity. not theres.

-M.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
42
London
I think it's important to realise that you can become a famous magician without being a professional performer, or even a good performer. Magicians can make their name through creation, writing or consultancy, as well as through performance. Daniel Garcia admits he isn't a performing magician, and doesn't consider himself any kind of authority on performance. In the same way Eugene Burger doesn't push himself as a creator.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
If you are going off DVD's, usually they want the effect to be as direct as possible AND they don't want YOU stealing their personal patter that works for them.

I personally just say be yourself and find your groove. You don't HAVE to connect in that "Paul Harris" kinda way a lot of the guys try to push. Just be a real person and not a used car salesman.

ahaha great statement bizzaro. i agree 100% they want you to create your own way of presenting the effect. your own patter. your own sense of creativity. not theres.

-M.
Yep, I was waiting for those kinds of answers. They lead me into the MAIN point of this thread. But let's see other kind of replies before we continue.
I think it's important to realise that you can become a famous magician without being a professional performer, or even a good performer. Magicians can make their name through creation, writing or consultancy, as well as through performance. Daniel Garcia admits he isn't a performing magician, and doesn't consider himself any kind of authority on performance. In the same way Eugene Burger doesn't push himself as a creator.
Well, that is ok. Again, it is not ME who is not going to engage or be a professional performer, I said that in the first post. I just want to see what people, who push other people to connect on a deeper level, have to say about this.
While we are still on Daniel Garcia, he even called a guy a different name throughout the whole trick, on his Project DVD lol.
 
Dec 23, 2007
1,579
4
36
Fredonia, NY
well i can only speak about wayne since ive only met him in person but i disagree with your assessment of his performing style. Many of his dvd's show a connection and even more dont show one directly but having seen him perform in person i can tell you its just more subtle. His Art of Magic Dvd for example, he seemed to really belong within the group when performing the ring and string with those girls, he engaged them in conversation and really had them just opening up. i think its just harder to convey connection within a quick 5 minute segment of a trick rather than a whole set and routine and a person's full persona doesn't always translate well through dvd. Having met wayne and seen him perform i can say that literally after about 5 minutes i felt like i had known the guy for years and was very at ease talking with him. I guess its just a matter of opinion though.
 
Oct 3, 2007
173
0
germany
I understand where you're coming from, but I also would have to disagree with your assessment in terms of performing style. Having seen Daniel Garcia perform, I can tell you right now that he is one of the funnest and funniest magicians I know. That's his style. Building patter doesn't HAVE to mean creating a story about how 3 fire men climbed a ladder, or building the routine around norse mythology. Patter just referres to the WAY that something is performed. Whether your patter has a story or "message" included is, in my opinion, up to you. :)

But then, I'm no authority myself. That said, I don't think ANYONE should be an "authority" in the magic community. People such as those you mentioned as well as legends like Ricky Jay are people to look up to and draw inspiration and advice from. Everyone has a different performance style that fits them, however. If you're more of a "serious" or mysterious performer, I wouldn't go look to Richard Sanders for performance advice, but to Eugene Burger.

That's my two cents. :p
 
I'll wait until the main part before I invest much more into this.

Bizzaro hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't have put it any other way.

Another thing to consider; in the grand scheme of things Houchin, Garcia, Fisher, and the likes certainly are -working- magicians. God only knows they do this full time and their monthly take home from gigs and sales probably are ten times my current take home pay. However- I wouldn't consider them famous.

These cat's names only mean something among the magician -in- crowd. Specificly the younger crowd between the ages of 10 and 23. Your average layman probably wouldn't know their name as a magician if you went out and asked.

This doesn't mean they don't connect. Don't mistake me. SimonOHart reminded me of that point. I've seen Wayne at the Magic Castle live. He does connect well.

Laymen will know the names of Burton, Copperfield, Angel, Blaine, Wilson, Houdini, Penn & Teller, Amazing Johnathan, Blackstone, Henning, etc. If you watch those acts you will most certainly see exactly what it is your questioning. Connecting with the audience on a personal level. Conveying character and meaning. Etc.

Of course, then again, that's also propably why these cats are making the big bucks too.
 
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WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
I just want to back up JRobart05's point. I've seen Wayne perform and he connects with the audience almost immediately. What's shown on the teaching DVDs is just the effect, not the ten minutes he spends chatting people up before going into the magic.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
well i can only speak about wayne since ive only met him in person but i disagree with your assessment of his performing style. Many of his dvd's show a connection and even more dont show one directly but having seen him perform in person i can tell you its just more subtle. His Art of Magic Dvd for example, he seemed to really belong within the group when performing the ring and string with those girls, he engaged them in conversation and really had them just opening up. i think its just harder to convey connection within a quick 5 minute segment of a trick rather than a whole set and routine and a person's full persona doesn't always translate well through dvd. Having met wayne and seen him perform i can say that literally after about 5 minutes i felt like i had known the guy for years and was very at ease talking with him. I guess its just a matter of opinion though.
Yes, Art of Magic is really an exception. But, what I'm trying to say is that those magicians don't make up stories, they just walk us through an effect. And that also implies on the AoM DVD. "If I snap my fingers, first ace is turned face up. If I snap my fingers again, we get double effect, first ace turned face down, and other one is face up". So, if someone posted a video with that kind of patter, he would be decapitated. You feel me?
But, then again, on the same DVD, in his Magic Castle performance, he does the opposite. He has the story, he involved more than one spectator from the crowd, he build everything up, and than he amazed (thou I feel that ending should be stronger for that long of a build up).
So, for now, let's just concentrate on the spectators that were asked to be filmed for a magic DVD.
I understand where you're coming from, but I also would have to disagree with your assessment in terms of performing style. Having seen Daniel Garcia perform, I can tell you right now that he is one of the funnest and funniest magicians I know. That's his style. Building patter doesn't HAVE to mean creating a story about how 3 fire men climbed a ladder, or building the routine around norse mythology. Patter just referres to the WAY that something is performed. Whether your patter has a story or "message" included is, in my opinion, up to you. :)

That's my two cents. :p
I totally agree, but why are then everybody saying that we should have those stories about firemen and mythology (only an example)?
I'll wait until the main part before I invest much more into this.

Bizzaro hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't have put it any other way.

Another thing to consider; in the grand scheme of things Houchin, Garcia, Fisher, and the likes certainly are -working- magicians. God only knows they do this full time and their monthly take home from gigs and sales probably are ten times my current take home pay. However- I wouldn't consider them famous.

These cat's names only mean something among the magician -in- crowd. Specificly the younger crowd between the ages of 10 and 23. Your average layman probably wouldn't know their name as a magician if you went out and asked.

This doesn't mean they don't connect. Don't mistake me. SimonOHart reminded me of that point. I've seen Wayne at the Magic Castle live. He does connect well.

Laymen will know the names of Burton, Copperfield, Angel, Blaine, Wilson, Houdini, Penn & Teller, Amazing Johnathan, Blackstone, Henning, etc. If you watch those acts you will most certainly see exactly what it is your questioning. Connecting with the audience on a personal level. Conveying character and meaning. Etc.

Of course, then again, that's also propably why these cats are making the big bucks too.
Sorry, I meant famous amongst magicians, thanx for pointing that up. Again, you are defending their styles and presentation, and so am I. But why are we then forcing others to be storytellers and to connect with their audience on a deep personal level?
I just want to back up JRobart05's point. I've seen Wayne perform and he connects with the audience almost immediately. What's shown on the teaching DVDs is just the effect, not the ten minutes he spends chatting people up before going into the magic.
Yes, it is getting closer to my main point, that prep of ten minutes before the cameras are up and running.

I was expecting more replies in the terms of "They don't want to spoon feed you patter and presentation, think for yourself... blah blah blah". But you surprised me, nice work.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
I find it fascinating how magicians continually prove they are indeed the easiest people to deceive. Most of the names we see listed again and again are not professional performers. Many believe they are. One of these names even bragged on an internet forum about his nonexistant 'trade show days.' Hey, if it sells dvds....

As a rule, to which there are a handful of exceptions, the people out there really working and earning real money and making real connections with their audiences fly well under the radar of the one trick dvd audience. Afterall, how would any of these consumers understand what it takes to do magic in the real world - they are still judging performances by how crazy that homeless guy ran away at the end of a trick.

The few names many magicians recognize who do work for real people, often perform very differently for real people than they do for magicians. Magicians want a magic show where they get to peek behind the curtain at the end. Cleverness of method eclipses practicality and relevance of effect. Magicians want to be 'clever like that guy' if only in their fantasies. I mean, he's a magician too. I'm cool like him.

I have produced several events and have had the pleasure of hiring some of the greatest magicians in the world to work for real people. I can tell you that the vast majority of people pumping out product will never work any of these events- because they simply have no idea what it takes to deliver a solid performance which engages intelligent adults under real world performing conditions.

Brad Henderson
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
I find it fascinating how magicians continually prove they are indeed the easiest people to deceive. Most of the names we see listed again and again are not professional performers. Many believe they are. One of these names even bragged on an internet forum about his nonexistant 'trade show days.' Hey, if it sells dvds....

As a rule, to which there are a handful of exceptions, the people out there really working and earning real money and making real connections with their audiences fly well under the radar of the one trick dvd audience. Afterall, how would any of these consumers understand what it takes to do magic in the real world - they are still judging performances by how crazy that homeless guy ran away at the end of a trick.

The few names many magicians recognize who do work for real people, often perform very differently for real people than they do for magicians. Magicians want a magic show where they get to peek behind the curtain at the end. Cleverness of method eclipses practicality and relevance of effect. Magicians want to be 'clever like that guy' if only in their fantasies. I mean, he's a magician too. I'm cool like him.

I have produced several events and have had the pleasure of hiring some of the greatest magicians in the world to work for real people. I can tell you that the vast majority of people pumping out product will never work any of these events- because they simply have no idea what it takes to deliver a solid performance which engages intelligent adults under real world performing conditions.

Brad Henderson

Thanx for your reply. I really didn't know that. After all, this thread came out of curiosity not knowledge. Thank you for that. Your reply really puts a "full stop" on my main point, but I will bring it up anyways.

My main point (while I thought that these magicians are professional performers), was this:
If we all strive to give our best performance for every spectator, and we try to connect and change every spectators life and point of view on some things, wouldn't it be a "sin" (in lack of better term, English is not my native) if we (those DVD magicians) missed opportunity to change someones life, just because they don't want to share with us their presentation? I mean, that spectator is missing on A LOT, if they are being used just as a card holder. What if that one person, who ends up on the DVD, and witness poor/average performance, is THE ONE person who could have her life changed by that performance?

I'm very tired, I hope that I made some sense. I will try to clarify any misunderstanding.

Thanx
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Not every movie is meant to change someone's worldview, nor does every trick need to be a life changing experience. A real pro balances his intentions and goals with the realities brought before him by his environment and his audience. Sometimes an amusing little trick is the perfect choice for a certain moment.
 
I find it fascinating how magicians continually prove they are indeed the easiest people to deceive. Most of the names we see listed again and again are not professional performers. Many believe they are. One of these names even bragged on an internet forum about his nonexistant 'trade show days.' Hey, if it sells dvds....

As a rule, to which there are a handful of exceptions, the people out there really working and earning real money and making real connections with their audiences fly well under the radar of the one trick dvd audience. Afterall, how would any of these consumers understand what it takes to do magic in the real world - they are still judging performances by how crazy that homeless guy ran away at the end of a trick.

The few names many magicians recognize who do work for real people, often perform very differently for real people than they do for magicians. Magicians want a magic show where they get to peek behind the curtain at the end. Cleverness of method eclipses practicality and relevance of effect. Magicians want to be 'clever like that guy' if only in their fantasies. I mean, he's a magician too. I'm cool like him.

I have produced several events and have had the pleasure of hiring some of the greatest magicians in the world to work for real people. I can tell you that the vast majority of people pumping out product will never work any of these events- because they simply have no idea what it takes to deliver a solid performance which engages intelligent adults under real world performing conditions.

Brad Henderson


Uhmm...Uhmm...Pay attention guys.
 

morpheis91

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2007
199
4
Philadelphia
www.myspace.com
I find it fascinating how magicians continually prove they are indeed the easiest people to deceive. Most of the names we see listed again and again are not professional performers. Many believe they are. One of these names even bragged on an internet forum about his nonexistant 'trade show days.' Hey, if it sells dvds....

As a rule, to which there are a handful of exceptions, the people out there really working and earning real money and making real connections with their audiences fly well under the radar of the one trick dvd audience. Afterall, how would any of these consumers understand what it takes to do magic in the real world - they are still judging performances by how crazy that homeless guy ran away at the end of a trick.

The few names many magicians recognize who do work for real people, often perform very differently for real people than they do for magicians. Magicians want a magic show where they get to peek behind the curtain at the end. Cleverness of method eclipses practicality and relevance of effect. Magicians want to be 'clever like that guy' if only in their fantasies. I mean, he's a magician too. I'm cool like him.

I have produced several events and have had the pleasure of hiring some of the greatest magicians in the world to work for real people. I can tell you that the vast majority of people pumping out product will never work any of these events- because they simply have no idea what it takes to deliver a solid performance which engages intelligent adults under real world performing conditions.

Brad Henderson

I'd have to agree on most of your points Brad. What I disagree on is that you said alot of people "pumping out" these DVDs "have no idea what it takes to deliver a solid performance" I'm sure that they have an Idea on what it takes but focus their attention on creation. Some creators know that they are good at creating and know that they don't have the chops to perform in real world setting. But I can give you a great example of someone who Pumps out great material and is also a solid performer. Eric Jones. He can work a crowd perform at trade shows and if you've ever seen him work a table at a Magic Convention you will see that Eric has his stuff together. My magician circle of friends include Peter Pitchford and Dan Hauss. Peter won SAM nationals last year and Dan as you all know has one of the most creative minds in magic and I feel privileged to have them as friends because I really get a great balance on creativity and performance.

Also to chime in on the thread I feel that performance patter depends on the venue (At least for me).

Parlour is more scripted you use some dry humor and tell stories. It keeps the crowd entertained and can help differentiate effects. What I mean by this is that a story can make two identical effects in execution completely different in perception. So a story is great for parlour.

When doing walk-around I find that direct patter and just making a connection with the audience works a lot better. I find that at walk-around gigs there is usually so much going around that initially its hard to get an audience member's attention if your using too much "story-like" patter. There are always times when someone walks up to the group and interrupts me or the group to ask what is going on. If I was telling a story it could disrupt the flow and on some occasions make the audience miss the point of the story or get confusing. So if you keep your patter direct during walk-around it could turn into a less confusing and better experience for your audience.

But at the end of the day that's what works for me. You should do what your comfortable with, because if you are uncomfortable performing then odds are that your audience can feel uneasy as well.

My 13 cents!
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
You can't really judge how well a performer "Connects" with their audience on a DVD. Because they most likely don't have the time to chat up the people they are performing for. When they film DVD's they have things like time constraints and all that. Which is something that they don't have when they do live shows. (To an extent). There is also the thing that the others have said with them not wanting you to steal their patter or lines and simply just wanting you to get the picture of how the effect is generally supposed to be done.

One thing I forgot to mention is that, Imagine how boring most magic DVD's would be if you actually did see the 10-20 mins before each performance of the guy just standing there chatting up the people. It would also waste a lot of film and time for them, and probably money too. You spend the 30-60 bucks for a DVD and the intro to each effect is longer than the intro to a Uwe Boll film. Imagine how annoyed and frustrated you would be.
 
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Jul 13, 2010
526
34
Maybe it´s because most of these magicians are working on the streets where the attention span of the audience is rather short.
 
Jun 10, 2010
1,360
1
If you are going off DVD's, usually they want the effect to be as direct as possible AND they don't want YOU stealing their personal patter that works for them.

I personally just say be yourself and find your groove. You don't HAVE to connect in that "Paul Harris" kinda way a lot of the guys try to push. Just be a real person and not a used car salesman.

Not all dvd's are like that. I personally own dangerous and trilogy. Trilogy has all the tricks w/ D&D's patter. Dangerous, same thing. Most tricks have a live peformance shot for real people in real time.

And yeah, they want the effect to be direct so you can clearly see what you are trying to accomplish, and keep it short so you can get to the explanation.
 
Sep 3, 2007
1,231
0
Thanx for your reply. I really didn't know that. After all, this thread came out of curiosity not knowledge. Thank you for that. Your reply really puts a "full stop" on my main point, but I will bring it up anyways.

My main point (while I thought that these magicians are professional performers), was this:
If we all strive to give our best performance for every spectator, and we try to connect and change every spectators life and point of view on some things, wouldn't it be a "sin" (in lack of a better term, English is not my native language) if we (those DVD magicians) missed the opportunity to change someones lives, just because they don't want to share with us their presentations?

I've seen, in person, great magicians fail since they didn't do the trick "perfectly." Yet, everyone in the audience bought it. I looked around and the show was GOOD!
 
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